Honor Killings and Domestic Violence?

[slant]

I went to Sundance last night, and watched a documentary set in Iraq titled "Quest for Honor". The movie itself was very emotionally detached, and not one of the best I have seen, but the maker of the film especially stressed one point.

It's not Iraq,
It's not the Middle East,
It's everywhere.

The stat was used in the film that 4 USA women per day will be killed by Domestic Violence. My two grandmothers who I viewed the film with said that the concept of killing women out of anger is common around the world, so therefore, it is everywhere.

But the film was talking about a specific type of killings- Honor Killings, where an Uncle, Husband, Father, or Male cousin will kill a female relative under the excuse of Honor. The definition of Honor was never said, but a woman can be killed for relations outside of marriage or because she owned a cellphone behind her husband's back. I believe the difference between Honor Killing and Domestic Violence is that Honor Killings are purely cultural. Yes, women do get battered and killed other places, even here in the United States, but I think this is much different. Some countries appear to be less socially free and less socially advanced, and I think Honor Killings are more likely in those societies. It is almost unheard of in America for a father and a cousin to get together and say "Oh yes, we should kill her, for our Honor,"

I was also told that the term 'Honor' is the same as calling a woman a bitch here in America. That, the excuse that a man killed his wife because she was a bitch is the same as Honor in these other countries.

I think it's a very complex issue and it would be interesting to see your point of views.

Is it Cultural, or does it happen everywhere?
How do you define the difference between Honor Killings and Domestic Violence, or are they the same? On a less serious not...Why do they call them Honor Killings, why not testosterone killings? Men are the killers in these cultures, and I can only assume the reason.

 

[acd]

Domestic violence and honor killings both stem from the belief that women are inherently lower than men and therefore need to be subjugated. Both are the result of patriarchical societies or attitudes. A woman is killed in an "honor" killing for the slightest threat of autonomy from her male relatives or husband. A woman suffering domestic violence in a democratic society is battered any number of ways by her partner for posing a threat to their control over her.

Honor killings are pretty much a religious mandate in a society where there is absolutely no separation between religion and government, and no human rights.

So obviously in a democratic society, honor killing is not tolerated. But there is still domestic violence and many forms of it aside from beating and it's astonishing the numbers of women and children in our country who suffer domestic violence.

 

[IndigoSensor]

This is an ancient way of thinking, and sadly people who are largely uneducated end up like this. Why, I really do not understand.

For as long as I can remember I have always hated the term "honor", I have never understood it, and the term itself should be destroyed.

 

[acd]

This is an ancient way of thinking, and sadly people who are largely uneducated end up like this. Why, I really do not understand.

For as long as I can remember I have always hated the term "honor", I have never understood it, and the term itself should be destroyed.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/honor

honor - 9 dictionary results
hon⋅or /ˈɒn

ər/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/IPA_pron_key.html [on-er] Show IPA Pronunciation http://dictionary.reference.com/help/luna/Spell_pron_key.html
–noun 1.honesty, fairness, or integrity in one's beliefs and actions: a man of honor.
2.a source of credit or distinction: to be an honor to one's family.
3.high respect, as for worth, merit, or rank: to be held in honor.
4.such respect manifested: a memorial in honor of the dead.
5.high public esteem; fame; glory: He has earned his position of honor.
6.the privilege of being associated with or receiving a favor from a respected person, group, organization, etc.: to have the honor of serving on a prize jury; I have the honor of introducing this evening's speaker.
7.Usually, honors. evidence, as a special ceremony, decoration, scroll, or title, of high rank, dignity, or distinction: political honors; military honors.
8.(initial capital letter

) a deferential title of respect, esp. for judges and mayors (prec. by His, Her, Your, etc.).
9.honors, a.special rank or distinction conferred by a university, college, or school upon a student for eminence in scholarship or success in some particular subject.b.an advanced course of study for superior students. Compare honors course.
10.chastity or purity in a woman.
11.Also called honor card. Cards. a.Bridge. any of the five highest trump cards, as an ace, king, queen, jack, or ten in the trump suit, or any of the four aces in a no-trump contract. Compare honor trick. b.Whist. any of the four highest trump cards, as an ace, king, queen, or jack in the trump suit.
12.Golf. the privilege of teeing off before the other player or side, given after the first hole to the player or side that won the previous hole.–verb (used with object)
13.to hold in honor or high respect; revere: to honor one's parents.
14.to treat with honor.
15.to confer honor or distinction upon: The university honored him with its leadership award. 16.to worship (the Supreme Being).
17.to show a courteous regard for: to honor an invitation.
18.Commerce. to accept or pay (a draft, check, etc.): All credit cards are honored here. 19.to accept as valid and conform to the request or demands of (an official document).
20.(in square dancing) to meet or salute with a bow.–adjective
21.of, pertaining to, or noting honor.—Idioms
22.be on or upon one's honor, to accept and acknowledge personal responsibility for one's actions: West Point cadets are on their honor not to cheat on an exam.
23.do honor to, a.to show respect to.b.to be a credit to: Such good students would do honor to any teacher.
24.do the honors, to serve or preside as host, as in introducing people, or carving or serving at table: Father did the honors at the family Thanksgiving dinner.

Also, especially British, honour.


It's not the word that is hateful, it is what is done in it's name. How about instead of destroying the term, destroy gender inequality. I agree with you that education would help. It's pointless to hate something you don't understand. Understand and then seek to change...

 

[IndigoSensor]

Merrytrees: Yes I understand that. Now nothing personal agients you, but excuse me while I get this out of my system...


I BLEEP SEMANTICS FREAKING AANNOYING WORD MEANINGS GAHHHHH!!!!:director:


*regains compusre*, I was just referring to the meaning of it in the context of the topic

 

[acd]

Word meanings? Annoying? whatev.

 

[ZenCat]

Is it Cultural, or does it happen everywhere?
How do you define the difference between Honor Killings and Domestic Violence, or are they the same? On a less serious not...Why do they call them Honor Killings, why not testosterone killings? Men are the killers in these cultures, and I can only assume the reason.

I think the subjugation of women happens to different degrees all over the world. I'm not sure if it can ever be eradicated until such time evolution results in the size and strength of the average woman being equal to or exceeding that of the average male. Then maybe men will think twice.

As far as the cultural aspect goes, it seems evident that some cultures condone these acts, and others do not.

I don't think these acts are the same as domestic violence. Domestic violence is considered a crime, i.e. not condoned by our culture. The reasons for domestic violence are rarely so well defined as the justification for these punitive murders of women.

And in defense of honor, I actually quite like the word, and what it stands for. For all those who are annoyed by semantics, there are just as many of us who appreciate our language and the appropriate use of it.

I suspect that "honor killings" isn't even necessarily the closest translation available for whatever those acts are referred to in the native language of the committed killings. It does seem designed to offend english speaking people. Maybe that's the whole point in using a tag like "Honor Killings", to offend people like me who honor the word honor.

Punitive murder or Familial assassination would be a fine way to refer to it. I did note a reference to "Karo Kari" to describe these acts in Pakistan, the definition of which is nowhere near "Honor Killing":

Karo kari is a compound word literally meaning "black male" and "black female," metaphoric terms for adulterer and adulteress.

 

[mayflow]

I revere women, and I think we all should.
After all my anima is female and I was born from one's womb.

If some don't, well that is their thing, but such ways of viewing can come to what good?

 

[ZenCat]

I revere women, and I think we all should.
After all my anima is female and I was born from one's womb.

If some don't, well that is their thing, but such ways of viewing can come to what good?

I suspect the attraction lies in the hunger for power. Dominance is power. A view I can't see the attraction to, but it seems to be held by an awful lot of people

 

[mayflow]

I suspect the attraction lies in the hunger for power. Dominance is power. A view I can't see the attraction to, but it seems to be held by an awful lot of people

Awwe, but dominance isn't power at all. It's just weakness.

 

[acd]

I suspect the attraction lies in the hunger for power. Dominance is power. A view I can't see the attraction to, but it seems to be held by an awful lot of people

That's absolutely what it's about, power. Ay, from days of olde, when man first learned to make tools and a woman's work was devalued outside of the cave or hut, he's been trying to keep her there. (Uh, not so much in Western society anymore.. but you know, there are the exceptions.)

Currency came into play when people were able to stop living hand to mouth as they became more proficient in their tools, wealth was acquired, and land became privatized. Ancient men stopped regarding women as equals as they were they ones accumulating their wealth, passing property from male to male each generation. How could they know who to pass the property to if the man could never be sure if the child he was raising was his? So he had to subdue women and make her of a lower station. Perhaps patriarchal religions that mandate honor killings are just excuses to keep the patriarchal tradition going.

 

[acd]

Awwe, but dominance isn't power at all. It's just weakness.

I agree. I have this philosophy that the more you dominate, the more problems you create and these problems end up dominating, well, the dominator! Humans dominate the environment and exploit it with abandon. Look at the problems that have been created from that. People dominate other nations of people through war and have developed nuclear arms that pose a threat of global annihilation.

 

[KingOfSpades]

In cultures with traditions of honor killing there is less emphasis on the individual and more on the group. The "honor" being allegedly besmirched is the honor of the group -- the family. So when a woman does something she's not supposed to do the reputation of the family goes down. So it's not personal/individual honor, but group honor.

I suspect you don't see honor killings in the West b/c there is a greater emphasis on the individual and less on the group....

 

[acd]

As far as Western civilizations reason for domestic violence.. well, there are still remnants of patriarchal society though the feminist movement and opened minded men have made much stride. (yay!)

From my reading and long thoughts on life, I believe that the pressures of living in an exploitive industrial consumer culture society puts pressure on men still clinging to the patriarchal belief that they have to be the providers and it builds to a breaking point of lashing out. But it isn't only men of low S.E.S who batter, rich men do it, too. There are many theories as to why.

Men who batter their partners do so because they have no self-esteem, and so they feel powerless. They see themselves as failures in our society either for economic reasons or others. Our consumer culture does not seem to afford anyone the luxury of feeling good about themselves!

Or the only means of coping they've learned was through their environment, i.e. their dad beat their mom etc.

Umm. sorry to totally hijack this thread.. but... DV is my cause!

 

[mayflow]

I agree. I have this philosophy that the more you dominate, the more problems you create and these problems end up dominating, well, the dominator!

Well, I think you hit this correctly.

 

[acd]

Well, I think you hit this correctly.

Well, I think YOU hit it correctly when you referred to dominance not being a form of power, but of weakness! Right-on.

 

[TK*]

Well, I think YOU hit it correctly when you referred to dominance not being a form of power, but of weakness! Right-on.

From personal experience, men who feel the need to constantly dominate comes from insecurity. Men who batter their wives, children do so because 1. it gives them some sense of control, thus feeding into their need to "dominate" and 2. they feel they are entitled to dominate because they are at a higher level than others (be it due to the "patriarch" or wealth status, or intelligence, or whatever) HE feels that HE as the leader has the RIGHT to assert himself as a leader through FORCE.

Entitlement and insecurity. There you go.

 

[acd]

And so much more concise... yes, TK.

 

[Silently Honest]

Killing is bad.

 

[Soulful]

This is an ancient way of thinking, and sadly people who are largely uneducated end up like this. Why, I really do not understand.

For as long as I can remember I have always hated the term "honor", I have never understood it, and the term itself should be destroyed.

I like the word "honour" when it is used to denote showing respect for myself and/or someone - ex. I'm going to do XYZ because I'd like to honour that person" simply because they deserve respect and to be treated with thoughtfulness.

I don't appreciate the word as much when it is used to mean a state of being - like someone who has honour associated with some type of authority-position. Because it brings the concept of "should" to mind, a stuffy and imposing sort of should, maybe that the honour is earned through obedience, as opposed to it being personal, respectful, and denoting a personal caring for someone.

I guess I prefer it used as a verb than an adjective/noun.