[INFJ] Hello everyone

[meowzician]

Whooa there bucko. I've had this argument with other religious crazies before, especially those on the far right who think of science as "optional" and only acceptable when it's convenient. As a scientist, I can assure you that science is NOT a religion. Religion is a religion. Religion is based of faith and belief. Science is based on a method. You may have heard of it - it's called the "scientific method." This involves making a theory, testing it, testing it again, and testing again, and coming up with relevant data that support the theory. And if new data come along that challenge the theory, then everything gets re-evaluated. Perhaps even a new theory or idea comes along.

Religion is nothing like this. Religion is ya make up something about God and everyone believes it and if someone doesn't believe it, they get expelled from society... for being different.

But being different has its advantages. For one thing, it's easy to tell that everyone around me are morons.

Okay, just kidding on that last one... mostly.

As for atheism, I've been considering this for sometime. I ask myself lately, why this settled into my mind. At one time, I thought that I had no choice but to accept it. But I suspect now that I may have "chosen" it. Atheism sets you free. Now, from this, one may assert that, since this could have been a motivation for "accepting" atheism, one might also assert that I have chosen to "believe" in atheism. But that crushes the whole argument, since atheism isn't a belief structure - it's simply acceptance that there is no evidence of a god, or, for that matter, anything beyond this life. This brings us back to the evidence of science, the scientific method, which is counter to the idea or even suggestion of accepting a theory on the basis of simply believing it.

Also, I think ya shouldn't pull on the dragon's tail that way.

But life is for learning. (Actually, I don't think I believe this either.)

Also, also, up above when I said it hurts my feelings. I'm just kidding - I don't have feelings.

Okay hold it right there you guys! Put the light sabers down. You! sit there! You are mischaracterizing science. And You! sit over there! You are mischaracterizing religion. Now kiss and make up.

Quarkmaster, one of the things I mentioned when I introduced myself was that I try to learn from everyone. Atheists have taught me to think more clearly, and to spot fallacies in my thinking. I owe you guys a huge debt of gratitude. CS Lewis said that we believers need our skeptics because they keep us honest.

And OF COURSE science is not a religion.

It's really lovely to meet you. You have to know I think INTP's are really sexy.

 

[meowzician]

Wow... No wonder you are an atheist if you think that is what Christianity is... Christianity makes testable claims that can be verified historically. Christianity is an evidence based religion unlike almost all other religions.

I'm very tempted to butt heads with you on this, because it's just not true. But I prefer to simply see this as you working your way through the stages of faith development. Right now, you are in a wonderful, healthy, and perfectly okay stage two. The important thing is to master it, which you will do in your own time.

Christianity is based on eyewitness testimony,

Not saying anything. Not saying anything.

 

[QuickTwist]

I'm very tempted to butt heads with you on this, because it's just not true. But I prefer to simply see this as you working your way through the stages of faith development. Right now, you are in a wonderful, healthy, and perfectly okay stage two. The important thing is to master it, which you will do in your own time.

Not saying anything. Not saying anything.

Already provided a resource about this in my first post in this thread. It's a 1K page scholarly series called "On the Resurrection" by Dr. Gary Habermas.

It is based on eyewitness testimony. The Apostles put themselves in harms way to preach about the resurrection of Jesus based on what they believed they saw with their own eyes. People do not put themselves in harms way to deceive people. Watergate proved that. At the very least, the Apostles BELIEVED they saw the risen Christ. That does not mean automatically that they DID see Jesus resurrected, but it means they believed the saw Christ resurrected. But that is only part of the story. The other part of the story is the conversions of Apostle Paul and James the brother of Jesus. Paul was already respected in Jewish leadership and had nothing to gain from converting. James previously thought his brother Jesus was insane but converted to seeing his brother as the risen Messiah AFTER Jesus had been killed.

None of this is contested by atheist New Testament scholars.

 

[meowzician]

Already provided a resource about this in my first post in this thread. It's a 1K page scholarly series called "On the Resurrection" by Dr. Gary Habermas.

It is based on eyewitness testimony. The Apostles put themselves in harms way to preach about the resurrection of Jesus based on what they believed they saw with their own eyes. People do not put themselves in harms way to deceive people. Watergate proved that. At the very least, the Apostles BELIEVED they saw the risen Christ. That does not mean automatically that they DID see Jesus resurrected, but it means they believed the saw Christ resurrected. But that is only part of the story. The other part of the story is the conversions of Apostle Paul and James the brother of Jesus. Paul was already respected in Jewish leadership and had nothing to gain from converting. James previously thought his brother Jesus was insane but converted to seeing his brother as the risen Messiah AFTER Jesus had been killed.

I am not here in this forum to undermine your faith. Although I am an ex-Christian, now Jew, I really have no problems with you being a Christian. Heck, truth be known, if believing in pink lunar elephants gets someone through the night, let them have their pink lunar elephants.

You yourself have admitted that for the disciples to behave as they did, it wouldn't require a resurrection, only a belief in a resurrection, that it wouldn't require seeing Jesus risen, but only thee belief that they saw Jesus risen.

If you want to include dramatic conversion stories as evidence of a religion's truth statement, you are going to bite of more than you can chew, because these dramatic conversions happen in other religions as well.

There are a whole bunch of assumptions embedded in your text that I'm quite certain you are unconscious of.

None of this is contested by atheist New Testament scholars.

The problem is not that the disciples didn't believe Jesus was risen or that Paul and James didn't have dramatic conversions. The problem is that these events do not lead to the conclusions you claim.

 

[QuickTwist]

I am not here in this forum to undermine your faith. Although I am an ex-Christian, now Jew, I really have no problems with you being a Christian. Heck, truth be known, if believing in pink lunar elephants gets someone through the night, let them have their pink lunar elephants.

You yourself have admitted that for the disciples to behave as they did, it wouldn't require a resurrection, only a belief in a resurrection, that it wouldn't require seeing Jesus risen, but only thee belief that they saw Jesus risen.

If you want to include dramatic conversion stories as evidence of a religion's truth statement, you are going to bite of more than you can chew, because these dramatic conversions happen in other religions as well.

There are a whole bunch of assumptions embedded in your text that I'm quite certain you are unconscious of.

The problem is not that the disciples didn't believe Jesus was risen or that Paul and James didn't have dramatic conversions. The problem is that these events do not lead to the conclusions you claim.

Thread 'The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.'

Today at 2:29 AM

Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ
3) The belief that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead...

• QuickTwist
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Philosophy and Religion

 

[meowzician]

Thread 'The Minimal Facts for the Resurrection of Christ.'

Today at 2:29 AM

Here, we can debate the EVIDENCE for the resurrection of Christ.

I will debate anyone on this. As long as we can keep it civil, I will address your arguments when I have time.

We shall start with the Minimal Facts of the Resurrection of Christ. These are historical facts that virtually all scholars in a relevant field of study will agree with, whether they be Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheists, etc.

1) Jesus died by crucifixion.
2) The disciples had experiences that THEY BELIEVED were of the risen Christ
3) The belief that the disciples had that Christ had been raised from the dead...

• QuickTwist
• Replies: 13
• Forum: Philosophy and Religion

While I appreciate the book suggestion, I am no longer on that part of the path. Those are issues I wrestled with decades ago.

 

[QuickTwist]

While I appreciate the book suggestion, I am no longer on that part of the path. Those are issues I wrestled with decades ago.

If I was wrong about my belief in Christ, I would want to know because I want to first and foremost believe what is true. I don't give up on learning about things because I am comfortable with what I believe.

 

[meowzician]

If I was wrong about my belief in Christ, I would want to know because I want to first and foremost believe what is true. I don't give up on learning about things because I am comfortable with what I believe.

In order to see clearly, you have to be able to separate the incredible goodness that your Christian faith gives you from its truth claims. Almost no one is able to manage this. It's just too fraught with emotion--it threatens our very sense of meaning, of reality... When something is important to us on this deep a level, we can't see clearly. We simply can't. The distress is too great, the price too high. We get all sorts of confirmation bias and other cognitive predispositions that all humans have that help us function but lead us away from truth. If I try to approach this with you from a rational perspective, you will never EVER see it. Everything in your biology is designed to protect your beliefs.

I have seen one or two occasions where someone's faith WAS ripped from them before they were ready, and it was devastation. I would never do that to another human being. Never.

I myself have been through two conversions. The first is from Christianity to Judaism. That was actually the easier of the two. The second was from a literalist, black/white fundamentalist orientation to an orientation where doubt becomes a door to a deeper, richer faith. THAT is the one which took far, far, longer. But in both cases, the journey came at a price. It hurts to let go of things that are dear to us. Do I think it was all worth it. Oh hell yes. I'm just saying, the price is high.

I'm willing to engage with you, but only on a very limited level. So far everything I've read tells me that you are progressing very nicely through a stage two faith development, but you are nowhere near ready to graduate. Should that change, I'll be the first person to be there holding your hand as you go through the next stage, which is very, very difficult to walk.

Look, you have a beautiful Christian faith. It is giving your life meaning, purpose, mission, virtue, beauty... If you have a good faith community along with it, you are undoubtedly flourishing. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[QuickTwist]

In order to see clearly, you have to be able to separate the incredible goodness that your Christian faith gives you from its truth claims. Almost no one is able to manage this. It's just too fraught with emotion--it threatens our very sense of meaning, of reality... When something is important to us on this deep a level, we can't see clearly. We simply can't. The distress is too great, the price too high. We get all sorts of confirmation bias and other cognitive predispositions that all humans have that help us function but lead us away from truth. If I try to approach this with you from a rational perspective, you will never EVER see it. Everything in your biology is designed to protect your beliefs.

I have seen one or two occasions where someone's faith WAS ripped from them before they were ready, and it was devastation. I would never do that to another human being. Never.

I myself have been through two conversions. The first is from Christianity to Judaism. That was actually the easier of the two. The second was from a literalist, black/white fundamentalist orientation to an orientation where doubt becomes a door to a deeper, richer faith. THAT is the one which took far, far, longer. But in both cases, the journey came at a price. It hurts to let go of things that are dear to us. Do I think it was all worth it. Oh hell yes. I'm just saying, the price is high.

I'm willing to engage with you, but only on a very limited level. So far everything I've read tells me that you are progressing very nicely through a stage two faith development, but you are nowhere near ready to graduate. Should that change, I'll be the first person to be there holding your hand as you go through the next stage, which is very, very difficult to walk.

Look, you have a beautiful Christian faith. It is giving your life meaning, purpose, mission, virtue, beauty... If you have a good faith community along with it, you are undoubtedly flourishing. There is nothing wrong with that.

This might not mean much to you, but I consider myself a Messianic Gentile. That means, part of my tradition of Christianity is Messianic, meaning, part of Messianic Judaism.

You speak of biases and worldviews and all that. I'm already well aware of that. Just today, I followed up with a man who was my youth pastor to look through the book I gave him that I wrote. Specifically, I asked him about my chapter on Human will were I essentially talk about the exact thing you mention about worldview. My view of Free Will is precisely that our schema prevents us from acknowledging what I call, "New" information, which means, we have to love the Truth more than what we want to be true or what is false. I'd be happy to give you the full chapter so that you can know I am not just BSing you here.

 

[meowzician]

This might not mean much to you, but I consider myself a Messianic Gentile. That means, part of my tradition of Christianity is Messianic, meaning, part of Messianic Judaism.

Ahhhhhhhh. Been there. Is your congregation MJAA or UMJC?

If you are comfortable sharing, may I ask what it is that drew you to MJ rather than, say the Baptist Church or Methodism or Catholicism?

You speak of biases and worldviews and all that. I'm already well aware of that. Just today, I followed up with a man who was my youth pastor to look through the book I gave him that I wrote. Specifically, I asked him about my chapter on Human will were I essentially talk about the exact thing you mention about worldview. My view of Free Will is precisely that our schema prevents us from acknowledging what I call, "New" information, which means, we have to love the Truth more than what we want to be true or what is false. I'd be happy to give you the full chapter so that you can know I am not just BSing you here.

OMG. So you are both aware of your (everyone's) innate tendency to filter out new information, AND you are involved in Messianic Judaism? ROFL. Yes, I literally DID just laugh out loud. You have no idea the danger you are in.

Please tell me you aren't also slipping into the back of a Young Israel or Chabad from time to time?

“Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy night.”

I prefer to keep our conversation light, and have it be a dialogue. I think it is wonderful that you articulated your views in text. But as I said, I'm no longer on that part of the journey.

 

[QuickTwist]

Ahhhhhhhh. Been there. Is your congregation MJAA or UMJC?

If you are comfortable sharing, may I ask what it is that drew you to MJ rather than, say the Baptist Church or Methodism or Catholicism?

The congregation I am involved in is part of Chosen People Ministries and Evangelical Free Church.

OMG. So you are both aware of your (everyone's) innate tendency to filter out new information, AND you are involved in Messianic Judaism? ROFL. Yes, I literally DID just laugh out loud. You have no idea the danger you are in.

Please tell me you aren't also slipping into the back of a Young Israel or Chabad from time to time?

“Fasten your seatbelts, it’s going to be a bumpy night.”

I prefer to keep our conversation light, and have it be a dialogue. I think it is wonderful that you articulated your views in text. But as I said, I'm no longer on that part of the journey.

I have no idea what Young Israel or Chabad is.

I came to my conclusion about Free Will before I considered myself a Messianic.

TBH, as persuasive as intellectual arguments can be, I've had a lot of supernatural experiences as well, which confirm my faith. For example, one time, at my apartment complex, I prayed for a man who had a dislocated shoulder in the name of Jesus and he was miraculously healed.

 

[meowzician]

The congregation I am involved in is part of Chosen People Ministries and Evangelical Free Church.

I was hoping to hear more about what attracted you to this, but if it's not something you feel comfortable sharing with me, that's okay.

One of my flaws is that I'm very pedantic about vocabulary. I just have this THING about words being used correctly, and sometimes it can drive others nuts. But in my defense, when people accidently misuse words, confusion and misunderstanding abound, and I just want to avoid that.

Chosen People Ministries is technically NOT Messianic Judaism, although it may seem identical in a superficial way. I'm sure they sing Hebrew songs, and wear Kippot, and maybe they even have real Torah Scrolls. But unless they have done a real turnaround since I was in MJ, the ultimate goal of Chosen People Ministries is to ultimately assimilate Jews who convert into regular evangelical Christian Churches. If I am behind the times, just let me know.

That is not what Messianic Judaism does. Messianic Judaism is meant to be a permanent home for Christian Jews, a place where they can continue forever in enjoying Jewish culture and not have to start acting like Gentiles. In Messianic Judaism, you are not a Jewish Christian. You are a Christian Jew. Do you see the significance of flipping the nouns and adjectives? For a Jew in Messianic Judaism, their PRIMARY identity is Jew, not Christian. They are a Jew who believes in Yeshua. Many of them even refuse to call themselves Christians, and insist they are practicing Judaism.

An important term for you to learn is this one: Bilateral Ecclesiology. It is the hallmark of MJ.

The classic text for what I'm referring to is, "Post Missionary Messianic Judaism" by Mark Kinzer. If you haven't read this, and you are interested in MJ its a MUST! It's a very powerful work. I ultimately disagree with Kinzer, but he has an absolutely brilliant mind and the movement is very lucky to have him.

In fact, I'll even go this far. I suspect that when his time has come to die, it will be the Shema on his lips, not the Lord's Prayer.

I have no idea what Young Israel or Chabad is.

They are popular Orthodox groups. Back when I was involved in MJ myself, my very good friend Deborah and I would dress frum out of respect for the neighborhood, bring sack lunches for after worship at the MJ congregation was over, and then spend Shabbat afternoon doing things like pushing elevator buttons at the local hotel for the Orthodox Jews, or attending a class in Talmud down at Young Israel, or a class on women's issues at the local Chabad.

IOW, we supplemented our participation in MJ with interaction with actual real Jews and Judaism.

TBH, as persuasive as intellectual arguments can be, I've had a lot of supernatural experiences as well, which confirm my faith. For example, one time, at my apartment complex, I prayed for a man who had a dislocated shoulder in the name of Jesus and he was miraculously healed.

I completely understand. I will share more on this if you like, but only with your permission.

 

[Wyote]

I just have this THING about words being used correctly, and sometimes it can drive others nuts. But in my defense, when people accidently misuse words, confusion and misunderstanding abound, and I just want to avoid that.

My apologies in advance for the inevitable confusion
However, if you approach things reasonably I am always interested in sorting it out

 

[QuickTwist]

One of my flaws is that I'm very pedantic about vocabulary.

Sorry, my fault for not answering. Most people are not actually interested in the "why?" behind the "what?"

Mostly it was October 7, 2023. But also, the church I was going to, the pastor was preaching through Leviticus (which that itself is a pretty big deal), but the Day of Atonement was literally the day before and he preached on some things about the Day of Atonement from Leviticus and didn't even mention it was literally the previous day.

Chosen People Ministries is technically NOT Messianic Judaism, although it may seem identical in a superficial way. I'm sure they sing Hebrew songs, and wear Kippot, and maybe they even have real Torah Scrolls. But unless they have done a real turnaround since I was in MJ, the ultimate goal of Chosen People Ministries is to ultimately assimilate Jews who convert into regular evangelical Christian Churches. If I am behind the times, just let me know.

That's not what they would say, but thanks for your opinion.

The classic text for what I'm referring to is, "Post Missionary Messianic Judaism" by Mark Kinzer. If you haven't read this, and you are interested in MJ its a MUST! It's a very powerful work. I ultimately disagree with Kinzer, but he has an absolutely brilliant mind and the movement is very lucky to have him.

My love for Judaism is outdone for my love of the Messiah behind it.

In fact, I'll even go this far. I suspect that when his time has come to die, it will be the Shema on his lips, not the Lord's Prayer.

We say the Shema every Sunday.

IOW, we supplemented our participation in MJ with interaction with actual real Jews and Judaism.

Our congregation is in a Jewish community.

I completely understand. I will share more on this if you like, but only with your permission.

You are free to share.

If you want to know more about my experience, feel free to read here:

https://www.oldthingspassawayallbecomesnew.net/post/the-spirit-is-moving

 

[meowzician]

My apologies in advance for the inevitable confusion
However, if you approach things reasonably I am always interested in sorting it out

Not a problem. In this case the phrase at issue was Messianic Judaism. There are actually three different groups sets where Christians do things that imitate Jewish worship. Only one of them is Messianic Judaism. But its very, very common for Hebrew Roots groups (One Law theology) or mission groups to Jews like Jews for Jesus to mistakenly refer to themselves as Messianic Judaism. The hallmark of Messiainic Judaism is Bilateral Ecclesiology.

 

[Wyote]

Not a problem. In this case the phrase at issue was Messianic Judaism. There are actually three different groups sets where Christians do things that imitate Jewish worship. Only one of them is Messianic Judaism. But its very, very common for Hebrew Roots groups (One Law theology) or mission groups to Jews like Jews for Jesus to mistakenly refer to themselves as Messianic Judaism. The hallmark of Messiainic Judaism is Bilateral Ecclesiology.

Oh I don't actually care about this topic, I just meant generally because I am always being misunderstood
Like right now for example rofl

 

[meowzician]

Sorry, my fault for not answering. Most people are not actually interested in the "why?" behind the "what?"

Mostly it was October 7, 2023. But also, the church I was going to, the pastor was preaching through Leviticus (which that itself is a pretty big deal), but the Day of Atonement was literally the day before and he preached on some things about the Day of Atonement from Leviticus and didn't even mention it was literally the previous day.

As a Jew, I find that sad. But not unexpected. Christianity is a different religion, with its own holy days. Why should it matter to them when Jews celebrate Yom Kippur?

That's not what they would say, but thanks for your opinion.

Well, don't give up so easily! LOL I actually really DO listen to people and I know that sometimes I make mistakes. So let's examine Chosen People Ministries. After they convert a Jew to Jesus what comes next?? What is their ultimate goal?

My love for Judaism is outdone for my love of the Messiah behind it.

I understand. I'm not here to change that.

You say you love Judaism. If you had to describe Judaism to friend in one paragraph, what kinds of things would you say? I'm not setting you up. I don't expect people who are not Jewish to be knowledgable about Judaism. I'm asking because I'm genuinely curious what you already know.

We say the Shema every Sunday.

Sunday!? Not Shabbat? Your Chosen Ministries Congregation worships on Sunday? Or was this a mistype? (It happens.)

Our congregation is in a Jewish community.

Okay.

You are free to share.

Long, long ago, back when velociraptors roamed the earth, I read a book called Drawing Down the Moon. It was written by an Anthropologist who had spent a year living with a neo-pagan group. Her question going into it was, "How is it that an individual raised in a culture with science can come to believe that magic works?"

As I read the book, I could very clearly see how these neo-pagans were basically remembering all the times their spells worked, and forgetting all the times they didn't. The truth was, things happened for reasons other than their spells, much of it simply random. But in their minds, all they saw were the "successes" and that was enough to convince them that magic spells were effective.

And as I read this book, I was conscious that the same things these pagans were saying, were identical to things I say about prayer.

Let's start with just that.

If you want to know more about my experience, feel free to read here:

https://www.oldthingspassawayallbecomesnew.net/post/the-spirit-is-moving

Do you remember how I said I wanted this to be a conversation? Feel free to share with me ANYTHING you like as part of our ongoing dialogue. But I am here for conversation. Not books. Not browsing the web. Not watching videos. I can do all those things on my own time and on topics far more interesting to me. I am here because I want to talk to YOU.

 

[QuickTwist]

After they convert a Jew to Jesus what comes next?? What is their ultimate goal?

Follow Messiah.

If you had to describe Judaism to friend in one paragraph, what kinds of things would you say?

There was a man named Abraham whom God spoke to. Because God found favor with this man and because he believed God's faithfulness, God blessed his offspring. The blessing to his offspring would be that they would be kings and rulers and through his seed would come redemption offered to the entire world.

Sunday!? Not Shabbat? Your Chosen Ministries Congregation worships on Sunday? Or was this a mistype? (It happens.)

I keep Sabbath, but we meet on Sunday.

And as I read this book, I was conscious that the same things these pagans were saying, were identical to things I say about prayer.

I believe in miracles. I also do not believe that God is a genie who grants wishes. This is why I am very careful how I pray. I do not always pray for healing. Many times I simply pray for grace for the person. Some of the miracle stories are undeniable, however. See Dr. Craig Keener's book, "Miracles Today" for more. Even if I somehow gave up my faith, I would no default to atheism. My belief in the supernatural is too strong.

 

[meowzician]

Follow Messiah.\

Where? How? Do they go to regular evangelical churches? Or is Chosen People Ministries set up as a PERMANENT place where they can enjoy their Jewish culture?

There was a man named Abraham whom God spoke to. Because God found favor with this man and because he believed God's faithfulness, God blessed his offspring. The blessing to his offspring would be that they would be kings and rulers and through his seed would come redemption offered to the entire world.

Sure. I'm certain you are aware that Christians and Muslims also believe God made a covenant with Abraham. Are there things you know about Judaism that set it apart from Christianity? If you could put it into words, what do you think the HEART of Judaism is?

Have you ever attended a real Synagogue? I don't mean a Christian version of one. I mean Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox.

Have you ever attended a Jewish Passover seder? I don't mean a Christian version where they make it about Jesus. I mean the original real deal about the Exodus?

I keep Sabbath, but we meet on Sunday.

OMGosh. You are more Messianic than your church LOL. I know you really want to think of this group as Messianic Judaism. But no self respecting MJ congregation would be caught dead meeting on Sunday. That is for Gentile believers. Not Jews. Their words, not mine.

Maybe I should back WAY up and let you tell me where YOU are coming from. What do you think Messianic Judaism is, and what makes your church MJ?

So keeping the Sabbath is something we have in common. That's lovely. May I ask what your Shabbat traditions? Like, do you light Shabbat candles? Do you cook or refrain from cooking? That sort of thing.

I believe in miracles. I also do not believe that God is a genie who grants wishes. This is why I am very careful how I pray. I do not always pray for healing. Many times I simply pray for grace for the person. Some of the miracle stories are undeniable, however. See Dr. Craig Keener's book, "Miracles Today" for more. Even if I somehow gave up my faith, I would no default to atheism. My belief in the supernatural is too strong.

It may interest you to know I have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. I have dislocated joints many times in my life, including my shoulder on two occasions. Sometimes I do end up in the ER. But surprisingly, a great deal of the time, the joint will return all on its own.

 

[QuickTwist]

Where? How? Do they go to regular evangelical churches? Or is Chosen People Ministries set up as a PERMANENT place where they can enjoy their Jewish culture?

The congregation is not even a year old. AFAIK, they don't plan on stopping being a congregation, if that is what you are asking. We have a building.

If you could put it into words, what do you think the HEART of Judaism is?

The Messiah.

Have you ever attended a real Synagogue? I don't mean a Christian version of one. I mean Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox.

IDK why you say "real." But I've never been to what you describe.

Have you ever attended a Jewish Passover seder? I don't mean a Christian version where they make it about Jesus. I mean the original real deal about the Exodus?

The pastor talks about the Exodus and Jesus, so make of that what you will.

OMGosh. You are more Messianic than your church LOL. I know you really want to think of this group as Messianic Judaism. But no self respecting MJ congregation would be caught dead meeting on Sunday. That is for Gentile believers. Not Jews. Their words, not mine.

"On the first day of the week, we assembled to break bread." Acts 20:7

May I ask what your Shabbat traditions? Like, do you light Shabbat candles? Do you cook or refrain from cooking? That sort of thing.

No tradition. Just refrain from working. The Sabbath is for man to rest, not for rules and regulations, as it was from the beginning.

It may interest you to know I have Ehlers Danlos Syndrome. I have dislocated joints many times in my life, including my shoulder on two occasions. Sometimes I do end up in the ER. But surprisingly, a great deal of the time, the joint will return all on its own.

Well, he sure seems to think he was healed by God.