Game of Thrones (show) | Page 13 | INFJ Forum

Game of Thrones (show)

I'm doing household chores today and of course, the only thing occupying my thoughts are various plot inconsistencies from last night's episode

  • Greyworm went from 'if you're an enemy of my queen, and you're breathing, die you fucking thot' to 'dude just killed my queen, but that’s alright, I believe in due process and the rule of law, so we’re just going to arrest him'
  • For that matter, why didn't Greyworm have a say in the council election? They let Tyrion, a prisoner, vote? Why didn't Jon get a vote? lol
  • After they slaughtered the Golden Company, the Iron Fleet, and the Lannister soldiers, the only remaining military power in King's Landing is Dany's army.... who had no problem razing the city and destroying everyone in it. After Danys death, technically Greyworm is at the head of those armies as her commander of armies. Were Greyworm interested in a military coup, it would take next to no effort for him to pull it off.
  • Instead, the Dothraki, the Unsullied and the entire conquering army just... peace out of Westeros. No one from the conquering army gets a piece of the new world. An army that just sailed across the sea and basically conquered a continent in one fell swoop. They just fucking leave.
  • They could've been the new masters!!!! Or is it that just too dark for GOT?

Like... my explanation for everything right now is Bran basically running a massive thought-control occupation here. Nothing else in the world makes sense.
 
After they slaughtered the Golden Company, the Iron Fleet, and the Lannister soldiers, the only remaining military power in King's Landing is Dany's army.... who had no problem razing the city and destroying everyone in it. After Danys death, technically Greyworm is at the head of those armies as her commander of armies. Were Greyworm interested in a military coup, it would take next to no effort for him to pull it off.

this was why I thought Jon didn't protest begin sent north and why his family "compromised" by sending him there.
 
this was why I thought Jon didn't protest begin sent north and why his family "compromised" by sending him there.

Right, but this is another example of the characters being reconfigured to suit a certain plot point rather than acting naturally like themselves. Why wouldn't the Dothraki and the Unsullied seize the city after Dany's death? The Dothraki are conquerors. The Unsullied are freed men loyal to Daenarys and now Greyworm and just a few scenes ago, we saw them being suitably motivated to kill for their Queen. Why wouldn't they just slaughter Jon's family and the remainder of Dany's enemies anyway? Dany wasn't the Night King. The Unsullied aren't Wights. You can't spend seasons building up humans being humans and then expect an entire army full of freed men celebrating a victory to just lay down their spears once their leader is destroyed. We saw Dothraki culture. They immediately rally around the strongest and go conquering again.

The reason GOT was so great was because every action had a weighty but human consequence and the storytelling was unafraid of going there... no matter how much it hurt. That's what made it so compelling.

This is why so much of this season feels like such a waste because it doesn't honor anything, not the characters, not the storytelling tradition, nothing of what came before.
 
Right, but this is another example of the characters being reconfigured to suit a certain plot point rather than acting naturally like themselves.

It's the pantser vs plotter problem in the series. GRRM is a pantser, which is why his characters are so richly developed and real. The series writers are plotters because they need to fit the story into the framework of a TV show with an eventual ending. When the series moved beyond the books there was a hiccup as it settled into the plotter role and the difference got more and more obvious the longer the series went on with GRRM to guide them and with their desired end game in sight. In theory GRRM's series could go on for a dozen books or more because he "let's the characters do what they want." Plotters sacrifice that for structure. They want X ending, so they nip, tuck, and squeeze until they get it. Everyone involved for eight years was probably tired and wanted it to end, so they made it happen and tied it up in a bow.

I actually love this about the series because plotting is "the proper way" writers are taught to write in classes and pansting is not well respected. Both ways have strengths and this series displays that sometimes pantsing can be superior.

Everything you are mentioning is legit, I just expected all these problems in the finale, and overall I'm fine with the ending.

BARGH! You know this. You're a writer!!!! Sorry. :(
 
It's the pantser vs plotter problem in the series. GRRM is a pantser, which is why his characters are so richly developed and real. The series writers are plotters because they need to fit the story into the framework of a TV show with an eventual ending. When the series moved beyond the books there was a hiccup as it settled into the plotter role and the difference got more and more obvious the longer the series went on with GRRM to guide them and with their desired end game in sight. In theory GRRM's series could go on for a dozen books or more because he "let's the characters do what they want." Plotters sacrifice that for structure. They want X ending, so they nip, tuck, and squeeze until they get it. Everyone involved for eight years was probably tired and wanted it to end, so they made it happen and tied it up in a bow.

I actually love this about the series because plotting is "the proper way" writers are taught to write in classes and pansting is not well respected. Both ways have strengths and this series displays that sometimes pantsing can be superior.

Everything you are mentioning is legit, I just expected all these problems in the finale, and overall I'm fine with the ending.

BARGH! You know this. You're a writer!!!! Sorry. :(


I saw you mention this upthread and while I didn't mention it before, my inner Stannis Baratheon is going to disagree with you on a technicality. Plotting vs. pantsing is simply the order you get around to telling your story... not what you prioritize. You can have a panster that's all about getting to the end of a story and a plotter who does miraculous things with color inside of the lines. I think the term you're looking for is character-driven vs. plot-driven writing. And to a degree, you're right in that a lot of scripts suffer when they eschew story in favor of outcome, but a big chunk of what hinders TV production and encourages formulaic writing is executive meddling. The bigger the production, the more script editors, executive producers and test-audiences and statistics are involved, and those are the things that do the utmost damage to the creative process because for them, its the numbers that talk before anything else.

In the case of Game of Thrones, the pressure for this season must've been unbelievable given the expectations and the budget, and naturally, where there's big money, there's big executive meddling. And I'm sure Benioff and Weiss simply checked out somewhere between season six and seven. And the fact that these guys aren't really the most seasoned storytellers probably didn't help matters. It's not that they were afraid to break free of formula-- it's just that they don't know how to do it in a way that was mature and compelling. Both have a history of having high faluting ideas about subverting expectations rather than follow through on what is a natural trajectory of the plot and character.


For instance, do you know what David Benioff is most famous for outside of Game of Thrones?

maxresdefault.jpg




Yep. He's the one who greenlit this tomfuckery from Wolverine Origins.

He's the dude that dared ask: like, omg, what if we made the Merc with a Mouth have... no mouth at all? :fearscream:

I mean, sure, we could talk further about the virtues of showing vs. telling and what beats to prioritize on a time crunch, and blah blah blah, all the things you're supposed to know as a good screen writer (which GRRM is, btw) but sometimes it just boils down to ennui and good writing decisions vs. bad/lazy writing decisions... and you'll find no shortage of writers taking shortcuts in every group regardless of how they choose to drive their story or how to plot (or don't plot) their narrative. GRRM himself has not so subtly shaded D&D as simply being a pair of dolts who confuse backshadowing with character development.


[I don't know how to embed things from tumblr - I've been going crazy trying to find this video on youtube but apparently only people on tumblr have it]


We also have countless interviews with the cast where they try to explain their characters and not so subtly hint that their perspectives were ignored. Good television writing doesn't ignore its actors, because when you have truly dedicated performers, these are the people who live inside the characters' heads. That's a rich vein of good storytelling. And when scriptwriter, director and actor come together, it's movie magic. See: Gore Verbinski and Johnny Depp and their creation of Captain Jack Sparrow for the Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl.

With D&D, we know that character motivation was not a priority and this is where the magic of what was GRRM's Game of Thrones dissipated. Not plotting, not pantsing: character. When character stopped informing narrative choices, or when narrative choices stopped reflecting character, you always, always get a disconnect.

And it has nothing to do with time crunch or structure. It's literally just... handwaving what made the show so compelling in the first place.

So what we ended up with was a perfect storm of corporate meddling and two writers who never really cared about character, never quite mastered show vs. tell....anddddd who fundamentally got frustrated with the story they were telling but still wanted to 'surprise' their audience by...
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This whole season just smacks of 'fuck it, let's just get this over with.'

And it's such a crying shame.
 
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I saw you mention this upthread and while I didn't mention it before, my inner Stannis Baratheon is going to disagree with you on a technicality. Plotting vs. pantsing is simply the order you get around to telling your story... not what you prioritize. You can have a panster that's all about getting to the end of a story and a plotter who does miraculous things with color inside of the lines. I think the term you're looking for is character-driven vs. plot-driven writing. And to a degree, you're right in that a lot of scripts suffer when they eschew story in favor of outcome, but a big chunk of what hinders TV production and encourages formulaic writing is executive meddling. The bigger the production, the more script editors, executive producers and test-audiences and statistics are involved, and those are the things that do the utmost damage to the creative process because for them, its the numbers that talk before anything else.

@sassafras - we're basically talking about the same thing and using different key phrases. I'm not here to argue with another writer over the labels of technicalities we learned in school or via our own experiences with writing and publishing our work.

I'm not disappointed with the end because I saw all this happening. The series got weaker and weaker with each season after they moved beyond the published work and the last season was a means to an end.


Also, as expected the books will be different. That will be a lot of fun to read! GRRM has confirmed it. Whatever he writes will be much richer and make much more sense than anything we've seen on screen this season. Now I'm going to turn my attention to something much more dear to me, and the only reason I won't be cancelling HBO after all: His Dark Materials.

https://www.boredpanda.com/george-r...cebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=organic
 
 
Watched 3/4th of the episode with an angry face. Man...

(I began watching during season 7 by the way)

So. I don't think I've ever been this annoyed at the ending of a show before? So many inconsistencies... I hate the fact that in this season, they suddenly made Daenerys go crazy. Sure, in earlier seasons she has said crazy things about conquering her land back with blood and fire. But throughout the seasons we have seen immense character development, and she was using her power for GOOD THINGS. I wonder why they decided to write her like this in the end. In the course of 2 episodes, she turned 180 degrees. That was not the real Daenerys in King's Landing.

It just doesn't make sense. And eventually, the guy who did basically n-o-t-h-i-n-g for 8 seasons becomes king. The only way I could have accepted this ending is if they showed us at the end that Bran/3ER manipulated everyone, and how. He was able to warg into animals and people. What if he warged into Daenerys? We never saw her face once she took off with Drogon again after the bells. What if she originally planned to fly towards Cersei, but the 3ER interfered? It would have been a dark ending and maybe I am missing some crucial points, but it's at least better than this nonsense we have now.

Also: Jaime and Cercei dead because of a few bricks, lol. Tyrion who elected a king while being a prisoner. The Unsullied and Dorthraki doing nothing. Bronn being the master of coins and immediately discussing brothels. Jon. Oh Jon. I will not even talk about him, lmao. Sansa is a snake.
 
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Watched 3/4th of the episode with an angry face. Man...

(I began watching during season 7 by the way)

So. I don't think I've ever been this annoyed at the ending of a show before? So many inconsistencies... I hate the fact that in this season, they suddenly made Daenerys go crazy. Sure, in earlier seasons she has said crazy things about conquering her land back with blood and fire. But throughout the seasons we have seen immense character development, and she was using her power for GOOD THINGS. I wonder why they decided to write her like this in the end. In the course of 2 episodes, she turned 180 degrees. That was not the real Daenerys in King's Landing.

It just doesn't make sense. And eventually, the guy who did basically n-o-t-h-i-n-g for 8 seasons becomes king. The only way I could have accepted this ending is if they showed us at the end that Bran/3ER manipulated everyone, and how. He was able to warg into animals and people. What if he warged into Daenerys? We never saw her face once she took off with Drogon again after the bells. What if she originally planned to fly towards Cersei, but the 3ER interfered? It would have been a dark ending and maybe I am missing some crucial points, but it's at least better than this nonsense we have now.

Also: Jaime and Cercei dead because of a few bricks, lol. Tyrion who elected a king while being a prisoner. The Unsullied and Dorthraki doing nothing. Bronn being the master of coins and immediately discussing brothels. Jon. Oh Jon. I will not even talk about him, lmao. Sansa is a snake.
Have you gone back and seen seasons 1-6? Cuz I don't want to spoil anything here if not. I personally think they're all worth watching.
I think Dany was intended to go mad all along. GOT writers just sucked at fleshing it all out in the show. I read something about Dany's death in the final episode bringing us right back to her visit to the House of the Undying in season 2. There's a really emotional scene there and when I remember that scene after the final episode I have a lot of sympathy for her and hope she does have some semblance of a happy ending despite her atrocities in KL. If anything the show makes you think about all the monsters in human history and ultimately what brought them to their choices. It's kind of jarring to discover you can have sympathy for those who commit atrocities. The show kind of forces you to realize that. Because who suddenly hates Dany because of the ending?

P.s.
Bran sucks.
 
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Have you gone back and seen seasons 1-6? Cuz I don't want to spoil anything here if not. I personally think they're all worth watching.
I think Dany was intended to go mad all along. GOT writers just sucked at fleshing it all out in the show. I read something about Dany's death in the final episode bringing us right back to her visit to the House of the Undying in season 2. There's a really emotional scene there and when I remember that scene after the final episode I have a lot of sympathy for her and hope she does have some semblance of a happy ending despite her atrocities in KL. If anything the show makes you think about all the monsters in human history and ultimately what brought them to their choices. It's kind of jarring to discover you can have sympathy for those who commit atrocities. The show kind of forces you to realize that. Because who suddenly hates Dany because of the ending?

P.s.
Bran sucks.

Oh oops, I meant to say I started watching from the beginning while season 7 was still airing. My bad!

That scene in season 2 foreshadowed her death indeed. I read about some theories before the final episode aired, and that scene was included in the theories as well. I was kind of hoping that it would not happen, or at least in a better way.

If they intended her to go mad, they sure couldn't care about the execution of it. They should have sticked to 10 episodes for season 7 and 8. Everything was too rushed now. :/

I will just pretend Bran/3ER masterminded all of this lol.
 
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This is one of my favorite post-GoT ending memes.

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