- Mar 17, 2010
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Feminism is NOT equality
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I agree with the philosophy of feminism, the problem is you can't really say it advocates for the equality of men as well (it's call FEM-inism for God sakes). And really it shouldn't, there is a need for feminism but it needs to be separate from masculinism, (a term I am hesitant to use for similar reasons as why many women are hesitant to use the word feminism, In that it has negative and extremist associations.) and there is also a need for a group that advocates male rights and protections. I just think these need to be two separate groups placed under the same umbrella rather than merged. I also think it is important for both of these groups to stop focusing on how the opposite sex are and focus more on the issues of their own sex. This is a simplification obviously and I'm avoiding gender issues here in order to keep it more cut and dry so it can be explained more easily.
The idea of equality is flawed. I tend to think in terms of parity. The problem with any group that seeks to reach for a place of acceptance and parity is how the oppressor reacts. Many times there is this denial toward the oppressed--that isn't true! No, you are wrong! No, see how you are! It creates an adversarial situation whereby people become entrenched in their dogma and inflexible. At the heart of any effective argument is compromise.
Creating the paradigm of the oppressor and the oppressed seems somewhat misleading. I am a straight, white, able bodied, male and I've never personally oppressed anyone. Everyone has equal opportunities in any areas of life or business I have personal control over.
The denial of opression is exactly what I was speaking of earlier. We can either acknowledge the shortcoming of our society or bathe ourselves in the rightious waters of "I didn't do it". I would argue that you have contributed and/or benefited from the inequality in some ways. Individuals who are given chances based on their overall skills and ability are generally not readily exploited since they have many options available to them. Men haven't been put into situations where they wear gstrings shaking thier asses for dollar bills. Inequality exists along sexual lines in many countries. It isn't about blame. You can't escape from it just because you didn't cause it nor can you really afford to stick your head in the sand and pretend that it doesn't affect society at large.
I would absolutely wear a gstring and shake my ass for the kind of money those women make, most strippers I've talked to about this average about $350 on a bad night and $500-$1000+ on a weekend. It's not an option that is available to me, There is no male market for such a thing, male stripping is lackluster at best in comparison. I've actually looked into such a thing at a very different point in my life before I really knew where I was (and that would have been my choice and my choice alone.) Your assumption that such an industry is negative to me is a false one. I do think our society has short comings and I don't think we should burry our heads in the sand and I do think that we should work at presenting an equal footing. but to set it up in such a way as to make overarching assumptions about all people is bordering on the extreme, sure I've received advantages for being a male, but I also would have received advantages for being a female. I don't much care for being made out to be an "oppressor" when I personally am not. It's like saying "look at your people, look at what they did" my response would be "these are not my people at all, just because they share my physical traits does not make me a part of them." Men oppress each other as well, women oppress each other as well. It is the individuals that create these oppressions we need to combat, not the groups they share lineage with.
You miss my point. My point being not that the industry is bad but the lack of opportunity for women to engage freely in all fields because of inqualites based upon gender present in our society (which curtails opportunities) is wrong.
A fine distinction. I am not surprised a man can't see it. *laughs*
Your continued resistance (and assoicated blah, blah) to the idea that our society is biased along gender lines reinforces my point. Thank you.
A fine distinction. I am not surprised a man can't see it. *laughs*
Your continued resistance (and assoicated blah, blah) to the idea that our society is biased along gender lines reinforces my point. Thank you.
Actually I agree with your assessment there and think it is something that needs to be pushed for, I'm not sure how I got something different out of your statement *facepalm*
Yeah I just want to point out here that in fact Sali DID demonstrate he agrees that there are gender lines and that he understands privileged. One of the things he was pointing out that you failed to acknowledge was that women are naturally privileged to working in industries such as stripping where they can make a huge amount of money for that sort of work. Whereas, if men of similar age entered that industry, they're not making the same amount of money because the demand for men doing that is not the same for women doing that and therefore there is gender bias line there. I really resent your last comment and how sassy you've become about arguing this issue, Stormy1. No. I will not presume you're right when you lack any evidence to prove that blind faith in your points is going to be beneficial to me.
Take off those blinders, men have been put into that position. Some men have to sell sex just like some women have to. Some are forced and some get to choose, but both sexes are in that position.
Women are "priviledged" into being socially acceptable to strip. It is not socially acceptable for a man to strip to feed his family, but a woman can strip to pay for her family and put herself through college. Women are priviledged to go the whole 9 yards with it but a man is 'not a real man' for doing it.
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I don't happen to agree that women are privledged to work in sex industries [MENTION=528]slant[/MENTION]. I think that American society has apuerile attitude toward sex which had artifically driven the amount of cash available within the industry but that is far from a lucrative job opportunity. Most women in the sex industry aren't flashy strippers making the big bucks.
I don't debate with any particular need to be right either. My comments to Sali were meant to be sexist in nature and are the kind of linguistic banter that I tend to engage in.
I don't debate with any particular need to be right either. My comments to Sali were meant to be sexist in nature and are the kind of linguistic banter that I tend to engage in.
Hum, there has been something wrong with the ability to edit and/or post [MENTION=1]Deathjam[/MENTION]. I would of edited my last post but it won't let me.
I tend to find men's resentment toward and "women get away with stripping and making the big bucks" argument to be displaced anger over the reverse in power dynamics that typically exist within our society. It is akin to the "men aren't valued as men" and "women don't want to be women anymore" kind of arguments. Most people associate the idea of societial change in terms of I have to give up something type of situations. There was a time when the whole country was convinced (or at least those with a disproportiate amount of power) that it was best that blacks and whites not share the same water fountain. The idea that women have been oppressed isn't new and it isn't confined to Western society either. It isn't about making anybody give up anything as much as it is about acknowledging that something needs to change. There will always be women who are willing to work in the sex industry. Yes, there are men who work in the sex industry. We should strive for the type of society that allows everyone to have the opportunity to have the widest, most equitable amount of choices open to them given their particular skills and abilities.
I tend to find men's resentment toward and "women get away with stripping and making the big bucks" argument to be displaced anger over the reverse in power dynamics that typically exist within our society. It is akin to the "men aren't valued as men" and "women don't want to be women anymore" kind of arguments. Most people associate the idea of societial change in terms of I have to give up something type of situations. There was a time when the whole country was convinced (or at least those with a disproportiate amount of power) that it was best that blacks and whites not share the same water fountain. The idea that women have been oppressed isn't new and it isn't confined to Western society either. It isn't about making anybody give up anything as much as it is about acknowledging that something needs to change. There will always be women who are willing to work in the sex industry. Yes, there are men who work in the sex industry. We should strive for the type of society that allows everyone to have the opportunity to have the widest, most equitable amount of choices open to them given their particular skills and abilities.
Perhaps discussion about gender divide in the sex industry is a big enough debate it should split into it's own topic as to not detract from the overall premiss of this thread? I certainly would be up for more healthy debate about it, but here doesn't seem the appropriate place as it seems a bit off topic to the issue of feminism/masculinism unification and the discussion could have a bit more room for flexibility in the "mature" section.
"On aggregate they claim they want equality between sexes, but, on aggregate they spend most of their time advancing a discriminatory agenda." This is a great example of a red herring fallacy.
'A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic. This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
1. Topic A is under discussion.
2. Topic B is introduced under the guise of being relevant to topic A (when topic B is actually not relevant to topic A).
3. Topic A is abandoned.'
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/red-herring.html
You need to stop with the red herring remarks. It only establishes poor reasoning, false observations, and a low quality argument. If you're going to debate a philosophic topic, then stick to the laws of debate instead of trolling and propelling poor analogies.
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