[ESTJ] Dysfunctional ESTJ?

[Rowan Tree]

There is someone with whom I have worked well in the past, but have come to regard as potentially highly dysfunctional, manipulative, megalomaniacal, etc. In all honesty, this person's behaviour strikes me as increasingly concerning—showing signs of harrassing and bullying, but also self-destructive patterns. I have always typed this person as ESTJ and wanted to know how an ESTJ might operate when they are not functioning well? How do their shadow functions manifest, what would be implied by a Te-Ne loop?

 

[Elis]

I'm not a psychologist, but I'd care to say that MBTI's function stacking is a poor model to describe cognitive function or dysfunction.

 

[Rowan Tree]

I'm not a psychologist, but I'd care to say that MBTI's function stacking is a poor model to describe cognitive function or dysfunction.

Nor am I, but I do wonder nonetheless if MBTI can be a useful tool to understand how people fall into harmful (as well as beneficial) patterns that are peculiar to their way of engaging with the world at a cognitive level. Especially in ways that fall short of serious mental illness, which I suspect is likely to distort typing altogether. For example, descriptions of the INFJs Ni-Ti loop, of having a Fe auxiliary function as an introvert and being prone to shutting people out (the infamous door slam) have been useful abstractions to consider my own interpersonal and personal life, even if only as a jumping off point.

 

[John K]

An introvert can get caught in inner processing, which can become a closed falsely self-validating trap that blocks any properly validating (possibly uncomfortable) external input. So I'd expect an extravert to risk getting trapped in a similarly false self-validating process in the outer world without proper internal reflection and true validation. I'd guess that one way this could manifest itself is through projection onto others of problems that lie within which should be dealt with by proper (possibly uncomfortable) reflection and a dialogue between external and internal functions.

I don't think this is the only way to express these things and of course MBTI is a only a simplified model of the psyche, but it does seem to describe many behaviours I encounter both in myself and in others.

 

[Rowan Tree]

'd expect an extravert to risk getting trapped in a similarly false self-validating process in the outer world without proper internal reflection and true validation.

That makes sense. I think there might very much be a dynamic of trying to maintain a certain mental picture of the world, but in a myopic way.

'd guess that one way this could manifest itself is through projection onto others of problems that lie within which should be dealt with by proper (possibly uncomfortable) reflection and a dialogue between external and internal functions.

This very much connects to how I'm having difficulties relating to the behaviour—I think it's easier for me to relate and empathise with people who respond in negative but internal, retreating ways, rather than by increasingly trying to resolve problems through external solutions.

 

[Ren]

There is someone with whom I have worked well in the past, but have come to regard as potentially highly dysfunctional, manipulative, megalomaniacal, etc. In all honesty, this person's behaviour strikes me as increasingly concerning—showing signs of harrassing and bullying, but also self-destructive patterns. I have always typed this person as ESTJ and wanted to know how an ESTJ might operate when they are not functioning well? How do their shadow functions manifest, what would be implied by a Te-Ne loop?

A simple question, Rowan: are you pretty much certain that this person is ESTJ?

 

[Rowan Tree]

A simple question, Rowan: are you pretty much certain that this person is ESTJ?

No. I'm quite certain about E and J, but I am so-so on S and only fairly sure about T (Te dom seems likelier than Fe dom).

 

[Ren]

No. I'm quite certain about E and J, but I am so-so on S and only fairly sure about T (Te dom seems likelier than Fe dom).

That's interesting. If that person is ESTJ, their Si must be extremely repressed, given the way that you describe their behaviour.

I would assume that Si users are the least likely to fall into megalomania, narcissism, delusions of grandeur, etc., given that it is a function associated with order, process, hierarchy, duty, and the like. Subsumed under Te, an extraverted function, it does not seem like the typical recipe for what you are describing. I also wonder what a Te-Ne loop might look like, if there is such a thing.

 

[Rowan Tree]

That's interesting. If that person is ESTJ, their Si must be extremely repressed, given the way that you describe their behaviour.

I would assume that Si users are the least likely to fall into megalomania, narcissism, delusions of grandeur, etc., given that it is a function associated with order, process, hierarchy, duty, and the like. Subsumed under Te, an extraverted function, it does not seem like the typical recipe for what you are describing. I also wonder what a Te-Ne loop might look like, if there is such a thing.

Perhaps I'm misreading the person's motivations. It could be that power is a means to social status or something like that?

 

[Ren]

Perhaps I'm misreading the person's motivations. It could be that power is a means to social status or something like that?

Maybe. But you did say that you recognized hints of self-destructive behavior in that person, too. So I guess there might be more than social status at stake... I don't know if this is possible for you to do, but do you think that you could give an example of how the person seems to have "shifted"? i.e. towards manipulation, megalomania, self-destruction, etc.

Just to get a more detailed view of the situation. I understand that this may be too much information, though.

 

[Rowan Tree]

Maybe. But you did say that you recognized hints of self-destructive behavior in that person, too. So I guess there might be more than social status at stake... I don't know if this is possible for you to do, but do you think that you could give an example of how the person seems to have "shifted"? i.e. towards manipulation, megalomania, self-destruction, etc.

Just to get a more detailed view of the situation. I understand that this may be too much information, though.

Yes, it's tricky, but to put it in general terms, the key issue is around locking certain people out of a group, while attempting to lock other people into it—but in a way that's simultaneously not just destructive to those being excluded, but to the relationships of those still intended to be on the inside. At the most childish level, it has all the makings of a kid's club with the usual targeted ostracisation. But highly orchestrated and with a lot of confidences, telling people different things, demands of loyalty, ambushing tactics, etc.