Do you believe in ghosts?

[JJJA]

Hope you don't mind me saying this, but aren't you contradicting yourself? You say you're open minded but then call yourself a skeptic... I mean being open minded implies a blank slate with nothing written on it, open to new experiences and yet being skeptical implies already having preconceived notions of what you are about to experience. And I don't get the second part.... You believe in the possibility of ghosts but not in the ghosts themselves??

Scepticism is a component of an open mind. If you refuse to be sceptic about something, then you fall into the trap of believing in fairy tales. Having a preconceived notion involves not being sceptic about the possibility of a belief that directly contradicts what you already know.

For example: I am sceptical of Ghosts because I have yet to find a substantial piece of evidence to conclude that yes, in-fact they do exist. However, I have not completely ruled it out because there are things that we don't yet know about our Universe that includes theories which looks beyond the 3-Dimensional world we inherit. Christianity has made absolutely no contribution to the logical approach humans must take to find evidence of the existence of Ghosts.

This video demonstrates the closest possible theory of 'Ghosts' explained by the late astronomer Carl Sagan:

[video=youtube;N0WjV6MmCyM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0WjV6MmCyM[/video]

 

[Flygirl]

I don't mind at all.

And nah, it's not contradictory, necessarily. I am indeed very open-minded. I can believe anything is possible, and wouldn't close my mind to those possibilities. The skepticism comes in because I require quite a bit to believe with any sort of certainty. I don't have any preconceived notions. I start at zero, open to a possibility, and am constantly observing and gathering information. I remain skeptical to believing in something as truth until I have gathered sufficient information, in the same way that I gather information to deem something being false.

You are exactly right - I believe in the possibility of ghosts, but not in the ghosts themselves. I don't believe that they do exist, and I don't believe that they don't exist. I believe that they could.

So you need cold, hard evidence of their existence that can be measured and replicated if and when desired. But this goes against their very nature, don't you think? If not, someone would hv already got enough evidence to proof they exist, beyond any doubt.

And what of the people who hv encountered them? Can we dismiss what we hv seen and heard and experienced? Can we ignore what we hv experienced and say it never happened just because we cannot measure or replicate it? To do so would mean we would hv to question our own sanity.

 

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

To be clear, I don't believe in this stuff literally. Only the metaphors and what this means in the context of human behavior.
Similarly, I think believing in the bible literally means you just don't get its purpose at all.

 

[hush]

So you need cold, hard evidence of their existence that can be measured and replicated if and when desired. But this goes against their very nature, don't you think? If not, someone would hv already got enough evidence to proof they exist, beyond any doubt.

And what of the people who hv encountered them? Can we dismiss what we hv seen and heard and experienced? Can we ignore what we hv experienced and say it never happened just because we cannot measure or replicate it? To do so would mean we would hv to question our own sanity.

It doesn't have anything to do with sanity, that's a bit of a leap. It has to do with faith. You have faith that what you have seen is a ghost, and not some other phenomenon, something imagined, a trick of the eye, misheard, etc.

You ask an impossible question; I can't tell you what to do with what you've experienced. That's for you to decide. What happened, happened - it's merely a matter of exactly what it was you saw and heard. You have faith that it was ghosts, and not something else, it's as simple as that.

It could go against their nature, hard evidence. However, it's difficult to ascertain the nature of something when it doesn't for sure exist.

 

[Ryso89]

For those of you who see ghosts I would like to say the following. All of the times you have seen them or believed they were there, had I been there I would have seen nothing. Maybe I would have heard noises but I would have bee successfully been able to offer better explanations as to where those come from.
Knowing this, does it mean I am less in tune with whatever allows people to see and experience these things? Or does it mean people who see these things potentially have something going on with them that others do not?

A spirit may have a certain inclination to contact or show him/ herself to a certain person, particularly if they are aware that the person accepts that they do in fact exist. There are too many variables weighing into the "why haven't I experienced one" question to offer a definitive answer as to why certain people aren't visited. Spirit energy is conscious intelligence. The reason why so many people don't believe is that they aren't even aware that what we can see and hear in our human form is so incredibly small in the range of sound frequencies and light waves that actually exist. This is the largest considering factor.

 

[ImaginaryBloke]

I have never seen any ghosts. Other people have seen them, so they I reckon that they exist.

I wonder if there is a ghost who believes in me, knows anything about me? :noidea:

 

[ThomasJ79]

So you need cold, hard evidence of their existence that can be measured and replicated if and when desired. But this goes against their very nature, don't you think? If not, someone would hv already got enough evidence to proof they exist, beyond any doubt.

And what of the people who hv encountered them? Can we dismiss what we hv seen and heard and experienced? Can we ignore what we hv experienced and say it never happened just because we cannot measure or replicate it? To do so would mean we would hv to question our own sanity.

I don't think it would be honest to outright dismiss them, but it seems to usually be the case that these experiences have a naturalistic explanation as well, which tends to be a stronger argument because everyone can experience natural causations.

If you have experienced an encounter with a ghost, then perhaps you have a belief that is justified by your experience. This would be a justified belief that someone who believes in ghosts, but have never encountered them, could not be said to have; they would just have faith. However, anyone who has not had the experience would be within their reason to be skeptical of the experience. In this respect it shares much with a divine revelation, where those that experienced one truly believe they have had an encounter with God, but others who have not had the experience are asked to just believe without the experience themselves; they are asked to just have faith. With so many different types of Gods, spirits, etc, derived from countless different beliefs/religions, who is right and having a true experience with the otherworld?

 

[Flygirl]

It doesn't have anything to do with sanity, that's a bit of a leap. It has to do with faith. You have faith that what you have seen is a ghost, and not some other phenomenon, something imagined, a trick of the eye, misheard, etc.

You ask an impossible question; I can't tell you what to do with what you've experienced. That's for you to decide. What happened, happened - it's merely a matter of exactly what it was you saw and heard. You have faith that it was ghosts, and not something else, it's as simple as that.

It could go against their nature, hard evidence. However, it's difficult to ascertain the nature of something when it doesn't for sure exist.

It was not a single random incident that happened. I experienced a lot of strange things over a period of about 4-5 years (i hv explained the detais in an earlier post). Sometimes they would happen as many as 2-3 times a week. But yes, it happened while I was living in a single place in a different city. I don't know if its related, but this city has one of the highest suicide statistics in the world. Another thing.. I always felt uneasy in this place. There is such a thing as our sixth sense that tells us that something is just not right.

I am not trying to explain or justify myself to anyone. It is what it is. But yes, if I had not had those encounters, knowing me, I would be highly sceptical too.

 

[Flygirl]

It was not a single random incident that happened. I experienced a lot of strange things over a period of about 4-5 years (i hv explained the detais in an earlier post). Sometimes they would happen as many as 2-3 times a week. But yes, it happened while I was living in a single place in a different city. I don't know if its related, but this city has one of the highest suicide statistics in the world. Another thing.. I always felt uneasy in this place. There is such a thing as our sixth sense that tells us that something is just not right.

I am not trying to explain or justify myself to anyone. It is what it is. But yes, if I had not had those encounters, knowing me, I would be highly sceptical too.

P.S. I was not the only one who saw these things. A lot of my friends also had many strange experiences. Everyone who lived there had to believe in the end no matter how sceptical they were at first. I do somewhat agree with the spirits=bad energy trapped in a time warp theory. You can just sense the dark energy at a haunted place.

 

[Skarekrow]

[MENTION=14438]Flygirl[/MENTION]

I just posted an article talking about what we were just discussing…very interesting!
http://www.infjs.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27025&page=195&p=871153&viewfull=1#post871153

 

[Misadventure]

I'm half Japanese and half Peruvian. Both cultures are steeped in superstition and spirits. This isn't an easy question for me to answer. I believe in spirits, but not the kind that I think "ghosts" refer to. I think of ghost as an imprint of someone's energy left behind. However that manifests in our physical world is interpreted differently by the person perceiving the experience.

 

[Elegant Winter]

I wonder what this thread would look like on an INTJ forum.

 

[cvp12gh5]

Ghosts are nothing more than residual energy from the past that has recorded itself into the atmosphere. Spirits, on the other hand, are actual human spirits that have not left our realm for whatever reason. I have come to the conclusion that I strongly believe in both.

And I have considered this from a scientific perspective.

If you take a look at the law of conservation of energy, it basically states that energy cannot be created or destroyed. But it can transform from one form to another. So what does that mean when our physical form dies off? The way I see it, our bodies are a temporary house for our souls (for the 'human' experience) but when our house is no longer standing, our souls (energy) must move. Where does it move? Depends. I do think that spirits who hang around, do so for their own reasons. A lot of times, it's connected to unfinished business, something that needs to be resolved. Why? Because their energy is connected to the negative energy surrounding that incident. They can't leave until it's released.

There are some spirits that have gone on to another place only to return when they feel their presence is needed to guide a living loved one, friend, etc. they are still connected to us, even after death, and they can hear our souls and will come when needed.

With ghosts (residual) it makes sense that an emotionally charged situation would be imprinted in the atmosphere. Emotions are energy, right?

Again, energy can't be destroyed. It stays constant and transforms into another form. That form is not limited. Ghosts and spirits? Why not.

 

[Skarekrow]

I posted this on my thread some time ago.
This theory leaves out the possibility of there being actual spirits of people and takes a total materialist position on something very immaterial.
It may be a flawed or even incorrect theory but at least it begins/attempts to make explanations.
I just wish it were more in depth.

Quantum Theory of Ghosts

The Quantum Theory of Ghosts (Abstract Edition)
Originally developed by Professor Max Bruin, PhD

Since the rise of mankind there have been stories of the spirits of the dead returning to haunt the living.
The very word, haunt, comes from the concept of an animal feeding place, and ghosts are seen as feeding upon the living.

Some societies revere the spirits of their ancestors, but even these myths include angry ghosts who prey upon the hapless mortals.
But what are ghosts?

The rise of science tells us that the idea of ghosts as spirits of the dead is absurd.
They exist in the supernatural, in a realm where science cannot tread, and as such they are dismissed as little more than the imagination of frightened, backward thinking people.

However, with the advent of quantum mechanics, new explanations shed light on why the myth of ghosts remains prevalent in cultures around the world.

What Are Ghosts?

Mythology would tell us that ghosts are the lingering spirits of the dead.
Balderdash!

Ghosts are not at all the spirits of the dead.
They are not, in fact, “spirits” at all.

A ghost is, put simply, an impression upon the subatomic weave of the universe, created via strong emotion of a sentient observer.
This means, in other words, that ghosts are not the disembodied personalities of the dead, and, in fact, they can be “spirits” of the living!

To understand this phenomena, one must first grasp one of the most fundamental principles of quantum mechanics: observation changes the subject being observed.

The simple act of observing or measuring a particle forces it into an energy state.
Unobserved, a particle may take any energy state available to it, but when a sentient observer is introduced, the particle becomes locked.

Ghosts are created when the observer’s emotions create a semi-permanent “indentation” into the quantum tapestry of the universe.
Like the scent of burned toast that remains long after the offending bread is discarded, ghosts are impressions of emotions that remain long after the cause has been resolved.

Ghosts, therefore, are formed not from the dead, but from the living and their interactions with the world around them.
The recording of events within the subatomic weave gives rise to an afterimage, and depending on the intensity of the emotion and the permeability of the quantum state, different “types” of ghosts can be created.

Negative emotions are many times more likely to cause these effects.
The reason for this is currently unknown, though it may have to do with the quantum spin of the universe; in an anti-matter universe, positive emotions might create ghosts more effectively.

Regardless of the reason, negative emotions, particularly hate, guilt and grief, are the most common causes for ghost formation.
This also explains why ghosts have traditionally been thought of as the spirits of the dead; death of a loved one can cause profound negative emotions from multiple sources, all centered around the memories of the deceased, which can then amalgamate into a ghost that appears to be the deceased.

The formation of ghosts, however, is somewhat rare.
It requires more than an excess of negative emotions.

The quantum state around the individual or individuals who form the ghost must be favorable for the formation.
Certain areas are more susceptible to this than others, especially those where negative emotions are most common, such as cemeteries or hospitals.

Other areas may be conducive to ghost formation due to other environmental factors.

Measuring and Classifying Ghosts

The intensity of the impression upon the quantum weave determines the “type” of ghost spawned. Ghosts can be categorized by measurable, observable characteristics:

1. Size and shape
2. Range of motion/area
3. Duration/frequency of appearance

Based on these three data points, ghosts fall into one of the following basic categories:

• Type A – small balls of light, sometimes only captured via camera, repeating in nature, commonly referred to as orbs.
• Type F – apparitions, may take partially human form, may have auditory component, repeating in nature, non-independent.
• Type N – specters, human form, full sensory spectrum, semi-independent in nature.
• Type R – poltergeist, metamorphic form, sensory and extrasensory spectrum, capable of limited independent action.
• Type X – entity, fully independent with wide range of quantum-based abilities, often self-aware, sometimes called “demons”, capable of possessing human host via quantum alignment.

Type X ghosts are exceedingly rare, formed from large quantum disturbances over many years.
The classic western “ghost” would be either Type N or Type R.

Intervening types, for example Type B-Type E, are variations on the primary of each subset.
A Type B orb, for example, has measurable color shifting.

Because ghosts are quantum phenomenon, they can be disrupted via other quantum phenomenon.
Powerful magnets, for example, can cause ghosts to be attracted or repelled, and radioactive materials can cause mutations in a ghost’s form.

Since ghosts are not made of solid matter, they can pass through objects with no difficulty, but the movement of matter is very difficult for any ghost below the R subtype.

Interactions With Ghosts

Ghosts with fully independent awareness often believe they are the mythological spirits of the dead and act accordingly.
Only on rare occasions do they accept that they are not the remnants of the dead, though this may explain various other mythological creatures such as djinn or faeries.

Destructive ghosts are generally bound to the event that created them, and may be discorporated if the event is resolved.
This explains why ghosts might vanish after a murder is solved, for example.

Additionally, certain items may cause ghosts to be forced away, not due to any “magical” properties, but simple because the quantum state of the item in anathema to the ghost’s quantum signature.

In conclusion, ghosts are neither supernatural nor imaginary.
They can be quantified and measured.

An intriguing experiment would follow; placing a Type R or higher ghost within a particle accelerator.
However, such an experiment would likely destroy the ghost, though it might reveal new subatomic particles.

In any event, ghost study may be academically pursued without need for the ridiculous trappings of the paranormal.
As always, science shows us that the world around us is more complex that we imagine, but always within our grasp.

 

[Siimplicity]

Interesting -- the poll is 50-50

 

[Ryso89]

Food for thought for all of the skeptics:

Visible light spectrum:

Also: We can generally only hear 15 Hz to around 20,000 Hz. This is a very limited range.

Point being: There is much more to the universe than what is tangible to you as a human being. Energy is constant; it never dies. It simply transforms. Think about it.

 

[Eventhorizon]

A spirit may have a certain inclination to contact or show him/ herself to a certain person, particularly if they are aware that the person accepts that they do in fact exist. There are too many variables weighing into the "why haven't I experienced one" question to offer a definitive answer as to why certain people aren't visited. Spirit energy is conscious intelligence. The reason why so many people don't believe is that they aren't even aware that what we can see and hear in our human form is so incredibly small in the range of sound frequencies and light waves that actually exist. This is the largest considering factor.

I respect your thoughts but I simply cannot agree with how you have come to your determination. A spirit decideds someone is open to them and therefore is more apt to make itself known? This isnt better than I believe because I want to. There nothing to say that for those who have seen ghosts were nit experiencing some sort of brain hemorrhage or being affected by intense magnetic fields.
Theres simply no way to prove ghosts are sentient unless they make themselves known to the scientific world. And a question is, why dont they if they are capable of making decisions?
When know things in the environment can cause people to hallucinate. Theres no reason to believe anything more than this is happening.

 

[Ryso89]

how you have come to your determination

Spirit communication through electromagnetic devices. Direct answers to questions via the Sb-7 spirit box as well as EVP communication through very sensitive digital recorders. Seances, channeling, witchcraft.

When know things in the environment can cause people to hallucinate. Theres no reason to believe anything more than this is happening.

Well, quite simply, I beg to differ. The experiences I've had were not at all hallucinations, period. Unfortunately there's no way to prove to you what I've experienced, you simply have to take my word for it, and that I am one of the most sane individuals I've ever met. I listed a number of things that I've experienced but I'm not sure if it's further back in this thread or another one.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Spirit communication through electromagnetic devices. Direct answers to questions via the Sb-7 spirit box as well as EVP communication through very sensitive digital recorders. Seances, channeling, witchcraft.



Well, quite simply, I beg to differ. The experiences I've had were not at all hallucinations, period. Unfortunately there's no way to prove to you what I've experienced, you simply have to take my word for it, and that I am one of the most sane individuals I've ever met. I listed a number of things that I've experienced but I'm not sure if it's further back in this thread or another one.

How do you know. How do you know you are sane. ...

We need to define ghost first.

 

[Ryso89]

I don't know man, I'm awful at descriptions. Skarekrow posted something half the page up that offers a great point of view.

But to summarize -

ghost: residual replay of imprinted energy resulting in manifestation with enough substance to appear in our range of visibility.

Spirit - intelligent form not of this plane.