Did Mary Sin

[Barnabas]

I'm going to start this one out with a preface, this question is really addressed to the Augustinians and Calvanist because it has to do with the inherited nature of original sin anybody free to way in on this but well, asking me or anyone else whether or not they thought marry was sinless is going to illicit about the same response from us as the could Jesus.

Was Mary sinless? if so why/how? Did it last only up until the birth of Jesus? Was she a perpetual virgin?

 

[sprinkles]

Well! That's an interesting question.

I find saying that she was sinless to be a bit of a shortsighted problem with the concept of hereditary sin.

Some may think this is a convenient answer to how Jesus avoided hereditary sin, but it's really only superficial. If Mary was sinless then how did she get that way? What about her parents? And her grandparents and great grandparents and great great great great great grandparents?

I don't think it would matter whether she was sinless or not because she was a vessel. Her virginity would be only important insofar that it would clearly display that Jesus was directly from God.

Saying that Mary was sinless is a bit problematic and unnecessary. It introduces the idea that God can arbitrarily make people be sinless out of nowhere.

I don't think it elicits the same response because it is not the same scenario.

 

[j654dgj7]

Hey!

Preface: I'm a Quaker that grew up as a Lutheran. This formed my opinions along with a generation education in Eastern religions and their values.

I don't believe that Mary was without sin. She is a saint, and I don't believe in saints, nor do I believe that they were free of sin or divine in nature.

Original sin teaches that every human thought and action is saddled with sin. We're all so saddled with sins, that we couldn't possibly satisfy God. That's why he sent his only son to save all of us from eternal damnation. He erased all sin, and we are all destined for Heaven as a result. He was a great guy, that Jesus!

In the Large Catechism, Martin Luther wrote this which I feel summarizes it in a pretty way: "God sent his Son Jesus Christ, our Lord, into the world to redeem and deliver us from the power of the devil, and to bring us to Himself, and to govern us as a King of righteousness, life, and salvation against sin, death, and an evil conscience,"

 

[LucyJr]

"For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God" - Romans 3:23

Mary was just a man, and therefore she was sinful.

Jesus was born whithout sin not because Mary was sinless, but because His birth was made by the power of Holy Spirit.

26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.
28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”

29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be.
30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.
31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus.
32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.”

34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”

35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called the Son of God.
36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
37 For no word from God will ever fail.”

38 “I am the Lord’s servant,” Mary answered. “May your word to me be fulfilled.â Then the angel left her.

 

[sprinkles]

Is this a serious question?

Does anyone REALLY believe Mary was SINLESS?

Why you have to be such a snot?

This isn't the internet getting in the way. This is not text being unable to convey emotions. This is you. Being a snot.

 

[the]

https://oca.org/questions/saints/sinlessness-of-mary

Here is my answer.

 

[Barnabas]

To answer @SovereignGrace, yeah some people do, it's mostly a catholic belief(though not necessarily universally held, nor limited to only catholics)

It's not a view I personally hold, but for a lot of Augustinians it's the work around for Jesus not inheriting Sin through Mary, a smaller and less prevailing belief also states that Mary was perpetualy virgin even after Christ's birth(which makes no sense to me but I'd be interested to talk to person who believes it).

 

[Flavus Aquila]

To answer @SovereignGrace, yeah some people do, it's mostly a catholic belief(though not necessarily universally held, nor limited to only catholics)

It's not a view I personally hold, but for a lot of Augustinians it's the work around for Jesus not inheriting Sin through Mary, a smaller and less prevailing belief also states that Mary was perpetualy virgin even after Christ's birth(which makes no sense to me but I'd be interested to talk to person who believes it).

In terms of sinlessness, I think the greeting of the Archangel Gabriel: Hail full of grace, is consistent with sinlessness. What, besides sin deprives a person of grace?

In terms of perpetual virginity, besides virtual universal belief until recent times, I think it is fitting. When an ordinary mother has her first child, there is no issue with her having further children, because she is able to love them all relatively equally. But in the case of Mary, it is fitting that she had only Jesus, because being Divine, it would not seem fitting that she should love another child equally.
Additionally, since Our Lord commended Mary to St John, from the Cross, it fits that there were no siblings, who would automatically take over care for her.

 

[Barnabas]

In terms of sinlessness, I think the greeting of the Archangel Gabriel: Hail full of grace, is consistent with sinlessness. What, besides sin deprives a person of grace?

In terms of perpetual virginity, besides virtual universal belief until recent times, I think it is fitting. When an ordinary mother has her first child, there is no issue with her having further children, because she is able to love them all relatively equally. But in the case of Mary, it is fitting that she had only Jesus, because being Divine, it would not seem fitting that she should love another child equally.
Additionally, since Our Lord commended Mary to St John, from the Cross, it fits that there were no siblings, who would automatically take over care for her.

Counter point, Jesus had brother named James, who Paul refer's to as "The Lord's brother." It's also a fairly common assumption that Jesus commended Mary to the apostles not just John.


Edit: disregard what I said about Mary being given to the apostles, I misremembered, upon rereading Jesus gave Mary over to John in john 19:26 in and John took her home. Though arguably this is because John was the only one with the courage to show up to Jesus' crucifixion.

 

[Lark]

I'm going to start this one out with a preface, this question is really addressed to the Augustinians and Calvanist because it has to do with the inherited nature of original sin anybody free to way in on this but well, asking me or anyone else whether or not they thought marry was sinless is going to illicit about the same response from us as the could Jesus.

Was Mary sinless? if so why/how? Did it last only up until the birth of Jesus? Was she a perpetual virgin?

Are you linking virginity and sin?

I think this relates to the nature and conception of sin, again, in the sense that sin is the turning away from and denial of God, either God's existence, or divine providence, then obviously not, not in her life time and I think this is my reason for believing that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. So far as sin in the sense of moral or ethical transgressions, well that may be a different matter, its a difficult question and as I was pointing up in the other thread about Jesus and sin I dont believe we will find the answer, it will produce more questions than answers.

Although there is a possibility of error here, it would be all too easy to ascribe to Mary too much divinity for a human servant of God's will and purpose.

 

[just me]

I grow tired of such questions. You guys have at it. What you think and/or what you feel may have nothing to do with your answers' being correct.

 

[Lark]

Counter point, Jesus had brother named James, who Paul refer's to as "The Lord's brother." It's also a fairly common assumption that Jesus commended Mary to the apostles not just John.

Yes but was that meant literally or was that in a sense of "all men as brothers in Christ" etc.?

I actually am not troubled by the idea that Jesus would have siblings or that he may have had a wife or that his followers had wives etc. too because I feel that all humanises the message of Christianity and that this is an important part of the message often misunderstood and misconstrued.

Discussions about a "Christ family" bloodline or something like that are stupid and feudalistic, I dont believe that because Jesus was God incarnate that his brothers would have been, he had an earthly surrogate father too who probably was the biological father of his siblings, in which case they may have been half siblings rather than full siblings. Although I also think there is a case to be made for Jesus having spoken in a "brotherhood of man" capacity.

 

[Barnabas]

Are you linking virginity and sin?

I think this relates to the nature and conception of sin, again, in the sense that sin is the turning away from and denial of God, either God's existence, or divine providence, then obviously not, not in her life time and I think this is my reason for believing that Mary was assumed body and soul into heaven. So far as sin in the sense of moral or ethical transgressions, well that may be a different matter, its a difficult question and as I was pointing up in the other thread about Jesus and sin I dont believe we will find the answer, it will produce more questions than answers.

Although there is a possibility of error here, it would be all too easy to ascribe to Mary too much divinity for a human servant of God's will and purpose.

No I'm not making a link between Mary's virginity and whether or not she had sinned, it's simply a thread about Mary and I figured I lump both questions in while the people who would be most likely to answer them would be here.

I'm of the opinion Mary was just another women, like any other who stumbled and faltered. I've not been given an good reason for me to believe otherwise.

Yes but was that meant literally or was that in a sense of "all men as brothers in Christ" etc.?

I actually am not troubled by the idea that Jesus would have siblings or that he may have had a wife or that his followers had wives etc. too because I feel that all humanises the message of Christianity and that this is an important part of the message often misunderstood and misconstrued.

Discussions about a "Christ family" bloodline or something like that are stupid and feudalistic, I dont believe that because Jesus was God incarnate that his brothers would have been, he had an earthly surrogate father too who probably was the biological father of his siblings, in which case they may have been half siblings rather than full siblings. Although I also think there is a case to be made for Jesus having spoken in a "brotherhood of man" capacity.

I find it odd that Paul would address James who was a known apostles(and therefore a known christian) as the Brother of the Lord unless he was trying to distinguish him from another James. On top of that In Matthew 1:25 It's stated that Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus, which seem to imply that she was not kept virgin after his birth.


I'm not arguing for some christological bloodline, let that be clear. I believe the only genealogy Jesus left was the davidic one. his brother's weren't special because they had Jesus as a brother(half brother)

 

[SovereignGrace]

Why you have to be such a snot?

This isn't the internet getting in the way. This is not text being unable to convey emotions. This is you. Being a snot.

Yes, it was too snarky, that's why I deleted it.

I tried to find a nice way to say it, but I couldn't.

It's just so utterly blasphemous and foolish to believe that Mary is sinless, there really is no kind way to address it.

Roman Catholicism, like all false religion, is barbaric, superstitious idolatry.

And the Pope of Rome is so obviously the embodiment of Anti-Christ, it's simply astounding.

Anyone who believes that MARY was SINLESS, is UTTERLY DECEIVED, and LOST.

They are under God's WRATH, and unless GOD saves them, they will perish in their sins and go to Hell.

CHRIST ALONE is the SINLESS, SPOTLESS LAMB of GOD.

Mary was a SINNER like YOU and ME.

She was a servant of God, a sinner saved by GRACE, but she was a sinner from birth, nonetheless.

 

[Barnabas]

Yes, it was too snarky, that's why I deleted it.

I tried to find a nice way to say it, but I couldn't.

It's just so utterly blasphemous and foolish to believe that Mary is sinless, there really is no kind way to address it.

Roman Catholicism, like all false religion, is barbaric, superstitious idolatry.

And the Pope of Rome is so obviously the embodiment of Anti-Christ, it's simply astounding.

Anyone who believes that MARY was SINLESS, is UTTERLY DECEIVED, and LOST.

They are under God's WRATH, and unless GOD saves them, they will perish in their sins and go to Hell.

CHRIST ALONE is the SINLESS, SPOTLESS LAMB of GOD.

Mary was a SINNER like YOU and ME.

She was a servant of God, a sinner saved by GRACE, but she was a sinner from birth, nonetheless.

OK so we can rule out Catholicism, and any of the non-Augustinian protestant churches. /were getting closer to spotting your denomination.

Also and this is a serious question then, if Mary wasn't sinless why didn't Jesus inherit her sinful nature?

 

[cvp12gh5]

Of course Mary was a sinner, just like every other human that has ever walked the Earth...up to and including, the one and only, Jesus Christ (oh no! How dare she say it!)

And no one is going to "hell" for being imperfect.

Headache.

 

[Lark]

No I'm not making a link between Mary's virginity and whether or not she had sinned, it's simply a thread about Mary and I figured I lump both questions in while the people who would be most likely to answer them would be here.

I'm of the opinion Mary was just another women, like any other who stumbled and faltered. I've not been given an good reason for me to believe otherwise.

I dont believe that Mary would have been the mother of God if she was conceived with sin like the rest of us, I do believe in the immaculate conception because it just seems reasonable to me.

I find it odd that Paul would address James who was a known apostles(and therefore a known christian) as the Brother of the Lord unless he was trying to distinguish him from another James. On top of that In Matthew 1:25 It's stated that Joseph kept Mary a virgin until she gave birth to Jesus, which seem to imply that she was not kept virgin after his birth.


I'm not arguing for some christological bloodline, let that be clear. I believe the only genealogy Jesus left was the davidic one. his brother's weren't special because they had Jesus as a brother(half brother)

I think he was probably trying to make a distinction yes and I know that there is some debate as to whether or not this James is the same James as, for instance, wrote the book of James in the bible, especially since James and Matthew would appear to give one solid version of Christianity but one which is simultaneously contains continuity with previous traditions, such as hasidic or radical jewish sects like the Essenes, but at the same time has been alledged to contain the blood liable on Jews or to be anti-semitic. If it is the same James and there was some familial connection it could be argued that they were closer to Christ and knew his teachings better than Paul, the late convert and persecutor of Christians.

I wasnt sure if you were making a point about bloodlines.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4115]Lark[/MENTION]

What about the grandmother of God?

It's the same problem one step removed. Pretty much a chicken and egg deal. "The chicken came first to lay the egg" well where did the chicken come from then?

This just seems to pawn off the issue to avoid looking at it any deeper. No matter how you cut it, somebody is breaking the chain somewhere so it stands to reason that Mary being sinless to be the Mother of God is actually no better an explanation than Jesus being directly the Son of God.

If Mary could be born sinless from sinners then intellectually one should recognize that Jesus could just as easily be the same, if not more likely, which really eliminates the need for that extra step which only appeals on a superficial level.

 

[SovereignGrace]

OK so we can rule out Catholicism, and any of the non-Augustinian protestant churches. /were getting closer to spotting your denomination.

I'm a Baptist. And I'm what you might call a "Sovereign Grace Baptist."

But that is NOT to be confused with "Sovereign Grace Ministries", and not all churches with "Sovereign Grace" in their name are "Sovereign Grace Baptists."

That designation implies that we believe in the absolute sovereignty of God in all things, especially in salvation by grace.

Examples of more well-known "Sovereign Grace Baptists" are Don Fortner, Henry Mahan, and Rolfe Barnard. But there are others in fellowship with us around the world.

We also have much in common with English Particular Baptists/Primitive Baptists such as Charles Spurgeon and JC Philpot.

We often quote the works of John Gill, William Gadsby, Robert Murray M'Cheyne, and some of the Puritans such as Jonathan Edwards, as well.

We do not like to be called "Calvinists," mainly because we are Baptists, and not Presbyterians or "Reformed Baptists." But we do believe in what is known as the "Doctrines of Grace" (5 Points, TULIP, etc.)

I cant point you to specific websites and sermon audio if you would like. Just let me know by PM or on my wall.

Also and this is a serious question then, if Mary wasn't sinless why didn't Jesus inherit her sinful nature?

I've already explained that in another thread, with Scripture quotes and all.

He was formed in her womb miraculously BY the SPIRIT.

He was IMMACULATELY CONCEIVED, meaning without an earthly father, BORN from ABOVE, BORN with the DIVINE NATURE, without sin, or even the POSSIBILITY of sin.

It doesn't matter that Mary was the vessel. He did NOT inherit her sin.

I don't care about genetics, it just doesn't apply here.

Mary was a sinner, and Jesus Christ was NOT.

It's just that simple.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Of course Mary was a sinner, just like every other human that has ever walked the Earth...up to and including, the one and only, Jesus Christ (oh no! How dare she say it!)

And no one is going to "hell" for being imperfect.

Headache.

Christ was never a sinner.

And you're right--no one is going to Hell for being imperfect.

They're going to Hell for being UNGODLY REBELS and for having NO SAVIOR.