did God create the universum (Stephen Hawking)

Morgain

Morgain

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I just saw a documentary about Stephen Hawking's newest discovery: did God create the universe?

He discovered that the universe, before the big bang, was a black hole. he also discovered that a black hole doesn't only absorb all matter and even light, but also time. This means that inside a black hole, time stands still, time does not exist.

If that is true, questions like "who created the universe" or "what caused the creation of the universe" are non-sensical. It is like asking where is the edge of the earth. Since the earth is spherical it doesn't has an edge. An event can only have a cause when time exist. Since time did not exist before the big bang, nothing could have caused the big bang, because nothing happened before the big bang.

besides this he also discovered the answer to "where does matter comes from". Matter that appears out of nothing is not something that we are familiar with in our daily lives. But on the subatomic level, it does happen. Subatomic particles can appear out of nothing and disappear again. But a particle doesn't just appear out of nothing. When it appears also something else appears: anti-matter, the opposite of matter. It is like when you built a mountain of sand. To built a mountain you need to take sand from an other place and eventually you are not only making a mountain but also a hole.
So if matter is created also anti-matter is created and when you add them up you are left with nothing. That is how matter is created out of nothing. For me this means that matter/the universe/life is just an illusion.

I think all this is really fascinating and pops up more questions. If time isn't as solid as we experience it (a black hole can make time go slower and eventually stop), then what the hell is time and is our life really linear or can it be that everything happens at the same time.

and even though he proved that you don't need a god to create the universe, I can't stop but wonder "what is the purpose of the universe, why did it start, will it ever end? how many universes are there, ...?
 
It seems more and more, to me, like everything boils down to one basic component in different patterns. Energy perhaps, along with an equal and opposite anti-energy? Perhaps energy is a pattern of something deeper, or perhaps a deeper energy is the basic construct of this all.

The question that's currently on my mind, and has been for some time: Consciousness exists, as I am conscious. Is consciousness a property of matter, or are the building blocks of matter a pattern of consciousness? More and more the latter seems to appear true to me. Hmmm...
 
fascinating isn't it!

I also feel that in the end it always come down to everything being ONE (=everything and nothing). Energy = matter according to Einstein. Matter appears out of nothing and vanishes again. Isn't it then an illusion, something temporarily created. But for what? To experience, experiment, play, or for no reason?

and indeed, is there a pattern to it? It must be, life doesn't seem random at all. particles form atoms that form molecules. Molecules (like DNA) possess information, they receive instructions and act on it, makes other molecules called enzymes that do something they are designed to do, all this to serve a huge collection of ordered mass that is called a human.
Why do these molecules do this? Where does the code of DNA comes from? All this activity for what? So that we can live a life wondering what the hell we live for?
Maybe we are like molecules just 1 single part of a bigger machinery, oblivious of its existence, just doing what we are designed to do to make it work.

Only why are we aware that we are living, why do we seek purpose? And are we the only 1 seeking purpose? Does a cell know that it exists?

what is consciousness, good question. Maybe stephen hawking can find the answer :-)
 
Okay, I love the shit out of Stephen Hawking and a lot of this is already familiar to me. Yes, when matter is created so is anti-matter. Based on this it would seem that everything cancels itself out and that everything IS an illusion. But who's illusion is it?

The biggest problem I have is that there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe, and if that is the case then I find myself wondering where the rest of the anti-matter is. Following that, I wonder if there is something outside of the universe where the remainder of the anti-matter is? Is the fact that there is more matter than anti-matter the reason we are able to exist and the reason we are able to be conscious? Perhaps this is where God comes into question. The universe is not perfect. Perfection doesn't exist and if perfection did exist then nothing else would.

[MENTION=1591]Morgain[/MENTION]

I find your questions interesting- particularly the one about being "one" and that perhaps we are all part of one bigger system/being/machine. To go back to the question "Does God exist?" I find myself wondering then if we are all part of what people call God. Perhaps the entire universe, everything that exists within and without it is God. We are all the same, part of one entity, reacting and interacting with each other and our environment in order to propel something greater than ourselves.

Or perhaps not.
 
sandra_b said:
Okay, I love the shit out of Stephen Hawking and a lot of this is already familiar to me. Yes, when matter is created so is anti-matter. Based on this it would seem that everything cancels itself out and that everything IS an illusion. But who's illusion is it?

The biggest problem I have is that there is more matter than anti-matter in the universe, and if that is the case then I find myself wondering where the rest of the anti-matter is. Following that, I wonder if there is something outside of the universe where the remainder of the anti-matter is? Is the fact that there is more matter than anti-matter the reason we are able to exist and the reason we are able to be conscious? Perhaps this is where God comes into question. The universe is not perfect. Perfection doesn't exist and if perfection did exist then nothing else would.

@Morgain

I find your questions interesting- particularly the one about being "one" and that perhaps we are all part of one bigger system/being/machine. To go back to the question "Does God exist?" I find myself wondering then if we are all part of what people call God. Perhaps the entire universe, everything that exists within and without it is God. We are all the same, part of one entity, reacting and interacting with each other and our environment in order to propel something greater than ourselves.

Or perhaps not.
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what is god?
it is a imagined being that has created everything and has been used to explain everything that we couldn't understand: nature phenomena, why we exist, how we where created, what the right way of living is, ...
In fact, everything we don't know can be explained by use of God. Now that we can explain more and more, do we really need a God?

But besides the "common sense of god" there is more.
what I find fascinating is that all religions in the world are different in their profane teachings. But if you dig deeper to the mystics of the religions, they all talk about the same things: all is one, duality is an illusion, you'll find the truth in yourself

so yeah, I'm really starting to believe that we are all part of something/nothing and that hole could very well be called God

in taoism it is called Tao. And Tao is described as the "form without form" that gives birth to existence that manifests itself in the "duality" yin and yang. The 2 play a never ending dance, one can not exist without the other, one causes the other, ... They are in search of a balance and by doing so they cause the third dimension "tj'i (force)". The third dimension (the sum is more than its parts, 1+1=3, you me and the force that binds us) causes the 10.000 things --> Tao expressed in matter (flesh and blood?)

(sounds a lot like the birth of Christ)
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I am no Stephen Hawking, but my understanding of the Big Bang is that this is when all the laws governing the universe came into being, INCLUDING TIME. Therefore there is no "before" the Big Bang. So it could be that I'm just immensely stupider than Hawking, or it could be that Hawking has been misunderstood, or it could be that Hawking is simply mistaken.

Since all observable facts only go back to the Big Bang, I'm wondering what observable facts he is basing this theory on.
 
I'm no expert but it sounds like you are experiencing solar consciousness, which is a step on the path to cosmic consciousness....stay with it!
 
my issue with the big bang. . .
what was before that. . .and what caused it. . .(or who)
 
GracieRuth said:
I am no Stephen Hawking, but my understanding of the Big Bang is that this is when all the laws governing the universe came into being, INCLUDING TIME. Therefore there is no "before" the Big Bang. So it could be that I'm just immensely stupider than Hawking, or it could be that Hawking has been misunderstood, or it could be that Hawking is simply mistaken.

Since all observable facts only go back to the Big Bang, I'm wondering what observable facts he is basing this theory on.
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that is exactly ho I undertood i

muir said:
I'm no expert but it sounds like you are experiencing solar consciousness, which is a step on the path to cosmic consciousness....stay with it!
Click to expand...

what do you mead and who are you refering to?

Aneirin said:
my issue with the big bang. . .
what was before that. . .and what caused it. . .(or who)
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Stephen Hawking's answer to that is that there was nothing before the big bang because time did not exist before it.So nothing could have caused it because you need a timeline to be able to distinquish cause from reaction
 
so, nothing caused something? that's where I get lost. . .
 
Aneirin said:
so, nothing caused something? that's where I get lost. . .
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Well, I can see two possibilities. Either nothing caused something, as you say. OR something outside of our space-time universe is the cause. Personally I find the latter to be the simpler and more obvious of the two possibilities.
 
Morgain said:
what is god?
it is a imagined being that has created everything and has been used to explain everything that we couldn't understand: nature phenomena, why we exist, how we where created, what the right way of living is, ...
In fact, everything we don't know can be explained by use of God. Now that we can explain more and more, do we really need a God?
Click to expand...

What I have found is that each new answer opens 12 more questions. The more I study and learn and seek and find, the greater I realize the bottomless pit of my own ignorance. Using your reasoning, the answer would be YES, we need G-d now more than ever.

But besides the "common sense of god" there is more.
what I find fascinating is that all religions in the world are different in their profane teachings. But if you dig deeper to the mystics of the religions, they all talk about the same things: all is one, duality is an illusion, you'll find the truth in yourself

so yeah, I'm really starting to believe that we are all part of something/nothing and that hole could very well be called God

in taoism it is called Tao. And Tao is described as the "form without form" that gives birth to existence that manifests itself in the "duality" yin and yang. The 2 play a never ending dance, one can not exist without the other, once causes the other, ... They are in search of a balance and by doing so they cause the third dimension "tj'i (force)". The third dimension (the sum is more than its parts, 1+1=3, you me and the force that binds us) causes the 10.000 things --> Tao expressed in matter (flesh and blood?)

(sounds a lot like the birth of Christ)
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Click to expand...
I really enjoyed your post. I always find it a great pleasure to meet those on spiritual journeys. I'm no longer journeying. Like the protagonist in Siddhartha, I simply enjoy ferrying others across the river.

Be very, very careful not to oversimplify things. First, while yes there are striking similarities in the wisdom that many religions provide, there are fundamental differences, and not over profane issues. It is incompatible to say that G-d is the Creator outside of space-time, and also say that the Universe itself is G-d.

But MORE than that, the perception of unity is itself a conundrum. (I think this is the first time I've used conundrum in a sentence; I get to say the Shekiyanu!) Do you like Zen stories? I adore them. I'm gonna give you a paraphrase of one I heard in a class in a Taoist temple: A student came to the Sage and said, "Master, we know that the ten thousand things flow from Tao. But what does Tao flow from?" The Sage replied, "After I wash my coat, I hope to get a good price for it at the market." It's an elaboration on what you stated above.

Here is another story for you to enjoy during your journey:
When the student first begins to seek enlightenment, a mountain is a mountain, a river is a river, a flower is just a flower.
When the student has studied for a long time, a mountain is more than a mountain, a river is more than a river, a flower is more than a flower.
When the student has reached enlightenment, a mountain is once more a mountain, a river is once more a river, a flower is once more a flower.

Okay I'm gonna add just one more thing, cuz I have itchy fingers today, if you don't mind me butchering the Tao Te Ching:
Something there is
Born before Time
Perhaps it is the mother of ten thousand things
For lack of a better word, I call it G-d.

Shalom most wholeheartedly!
 
Okay, I am wondering (since I didn't actually see the documentary) if perhaps what Steven Hawking was saying is that the singularity from which the Big Bang came fits the definition of a black hole. That would not imply a black hole CAUSING the Big Bang, but would simply be further describing the singularity.

This really just begs the question. If a black hole is a gravitational singularity so strong that not even light, not even TIME, can escape.... then how come light, time, and everything else DID escape?
 
uberrogo said:
Wrong, the surface is the edge.
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well then, consider this, it is not me you are calling wrong, but Stephen Hawking one of the greatest scientists in the entire history of mankind... Just saying

and besides that, you are completely missing the point
 
Ideas borrowed from someone else, but i can't reference the work:

Scientists have established that electrons and other sub atomic particles can either express themselves as wave (non physical) or particle (physical), but they only manifest as particles (physical) when we are looking at them!

Otherwise they are always in wave form!

External reality is nothing more than wave patterns of varying frequencies. Our heads are like TV sets that tune into a certain frequency. That seems to be where modern physics is at!

Here's a clip of physicist Dr Kaku and 'Conspiracy theorist' David Ike describing the same thing, except Ike described it years before!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWWQKU_-G0&feature=related
 
GracieRuth said:
But MORE than that, the perception of unity is itself a conundrum. (I think this is the first time I've used conundrum in a sentence; I get to say the Shekiyanu!) Do you like Zen stories? I adore them. I'm gonna give you a paraphrase of one I heard in a class in a Taoist temple: A student came to the Sage and said, "Master, we know that the ten thousand things flow from Tao. But what does Tao flow from?" The Sage replied, "After I wash my coat, I hope to get a good price for it at the market." It's an elaboration on what you stated above.
Click to expand...

I really can't wrap my mind around this riddle ;-) and especially not how it is an elaboration on what I said
maybe that is just the point, lol!

GracieRuth said:
Here is another story for you to enjoy during your journey:
When the student first begins to seek enlightenment, a mountain is a mountain, a river is a river, a flower is just a flower.
When the student has studied for a long time, a mountain is more than a mountain, a river is more than a river, a flower is more than a flower.
When the student has reached enlightenment, a mountain is once more a mountain, a river is once more a river, a flower is once more a flower.

I really enjoyed your post. I always find it a great pleasure to meet those on spiritual journeys. I'm no longer journeying. Like the protagonist in Siddhartha, I simply enjoy ferrying others across the river.
Click to expand...

I have heard the story before and I think it is great. And at a certain point in my life it hit me and I understood that there is nothing to search for. In fact the journey is never ending, we are searching for what is already here, we try to understand that what is not to be understood. By searching we run away from that what we are searching for. I think that is what the Tao Te Tjing is all about. Stop searching, be content with what you have got. Live in the moment, live life to the fullest, enjoy the simple things, enjoy the mystery of life without trying to grasp it.

But I find it really hard. To see the mountains just as mountains without getting lost in the daily routine. After a while I always fall asleep again. And then after a time I wake up again, see the mountains as more than a mountain, excited about the mystery of life. But then I realize that what I seek is already here and the mountain becomes a mountain again. But there is something different then. Something changed, there is a deeper understanding, a contentment about the mountain being a mountain and a joy to be able to experience it. Perhaps that is what is called enlightment. Everything is just how it should be?
But even that understanding fades away and I fall into routine again.... allthough I feel like every time I wake up, the puzzle is a little bit more clear...

by the way, I really enjoyed your reply!!!!!!
 
muir said:
Ideas borrowed from someone else, but i can't reference the work:

Scientists have established that electrons and other sub atomic particles can either express themselves as wave (non physical) or particle (physical), but they only manifest as particles (physical) when we are looking at them!

Otherwise they are always in wave form!

External reality is nothing more than wave patterns of varying frequencies. Our heads are like TV sets that tune into a certain frequency. That seems to be where modern physics is at!

Here's a clip of physicist Dr Kaku and 'Conspiracy theorist' David Ike describing the same thing, except Ike described it years before!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVWWQKU_-G0&feature=related
Click to expand...

interesting!

As I understood it, small particles can act as waves or particles and that it is influenced by the observant. When we seek for particles, they behave like particles, when we seek for waves, they behave like waves. So in fact we see what we want to see. So the question is, what is their form when we are not looking?

I really love this quantum physics since it comes so closely to spirituality. For me it also brings together modern science/medicine and eastern science/medicine. Modern science only sees the material world, eastern science only sees the energy world. Quantum physics proves that they are both looking at the same thing, only from a different perspective.

We see matter as a dense material but in fact that is an illusion. We touch a piece of metal and feel that it is dense. but in reality it consists of atoms that attract each other with a lot of empty space in between. And the atoms also consist for 99,99% of empty space. So we think we touch solid metal while in reality all we touch is an energy field

Seeing the world in shapes of vibrations brings an whole new dimension to it. Things are not so seperate anymore. My energy field may have more influence on other people's energy field than I'm aware of. Maybe thoughts are also vibrations, and consciousness as well. So what effect have my thoughts on the world, can thoughts make people ill, can they shape my future?
the world is not as strict and understandable as we think. Time is proven not to be something stable, who says that time is linear? matter is not as solid as we think. The laws of nature are also not always applicable. They can explain the world that we see but if we look smaller or bigger, then these rules doesn't fit anymore. What we can see, hear, taste or smell are just fractions of what is really out there. And what is life, where do we draw the line between something that is alive and something that is not (like a rock)? Is a virus a living thing or not?

we think we can fit the world into rules but we are so wrong!!! ;-)

I really like to wonder about all of this, it makes me feel alive :-)
 
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