Considering Others' Feelings, or: This thread might make me look like an asshole, but I'm willing to

[BlinkandThink]

I was reading this page: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes (if page is down, try: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...t_Function-Attitudes&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)


And the first Fi example intrigued me:

To experience Introverted Feeling:

As you come across the action of any mammal engaged in any activity (including humans), say to yourself, "He/she is feeling ______ because he is needing ______" and fill in the blanks. Guess the mammal's emotion as accurately as you can, by paying close attention to every detail of its behavior and trying to imagine what emotion that you might feel if you were that kind of mammal and acting that way. Guess the need by intuiting the inner calling of the animal that is emerging in the way it's responding to its environment, by recalling a similar need of your own. For example, if you see a Scotty dog sniffing around at a new suitcase, you might guess, "He is feeling apprehensive because he has a need to know he's safe." Or you might guess, "He is feeling curious because he has a need to learn all about the world around him." It depends unpredictably on exactly what you really observe. Key is to watch the mammal extremely closely, so your guess emerges spontaneously from empathizing, and not, say, by consciously reasoning on the basis of something you've read. Your guess must come from the fact that you yourself genuinely feel it. It must come from the heart.

So I decided to try it out.


My results:

1. People suddenly seemed a lot more interesting because they turned into puzzles I was trying to solve.
2. I had a hard time paying attention to whether or not they were actually saying anything useful, let alone whether anything else important was happening.

Do people really do this all day?? How do they do anything else? Doesn't it make interacting with people exhausting? Am I an asshole?

 

[Billy]

I do something similar to this, but I am not sure if its Fi. I dont have any feeling attatched to it, other then that I might feel what they are feeling, but I do this all the time. try to figure out people and things motives, what makes it tick, why its doing what its doing. It doesnt get exhausting it just how I perceive people and figure them out. I find it useful then just letting them go by without being analyzed. The unknown annoys me. I dont think it makes you an asshole. I think it makes you extra perceptive. People ARE puzzles to be solved.

 

[acd]

While all that is going on... there are other processes at play too.
You had to concentrate to do this.
It is second nature for me.
So when you say after trying it out:

I had a hard time paying attention to whether or not they were actually saying anything useful, let alone whether anything else important was happening.

I don't have a hard time understanding what the person is saying or what is going on around me. I don't find it distracting.

As an Fi dom it's like being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Yessir I can do that.

 

[BlinkandThink]

As an Fi dom it's like being able to walk and chew gum at the same time. Yessir I can do that.

IxFPs are glittering, magic-making telepathists.

 

[acd]

::tips cap politely::
Now you're just being an asshole.

 

[IndigoSensor]

I can think that sort of way when I tell myself to, but that is by no means my natural thinking process when I look at something or someone. I almost never think in that sort of way, because that process just isn't useful to me (its kind of moot). I more often consider what they are thinking as opposed to what they are feeling. If it is with a person then I will sometimes think about what they are feeling, but it is more in a context of what they are thinking about feelings, then what they actually feel. Sort of "they have thought or done xyz so they will feel abc because they are expressing fgh", but even then that is not a terribly good descripton of it.

I can see the use of doing that, but I can sort of get to those conclusions in a different way (similar to what I described above). It really comes down to Fi. Any person can think that way regardless of their functions, but Fi controlled people will default to that sort of process before other types for the most part. My Fi is pretty low so I don't do that process much.

 

[BlinkandThink]

::tips cap politely::
Now you're just being an asshole.

The kind that makes yummy treats!

 

[BlinkandThink]

I do something similar to this, but I am not sure if its Fi. I dont have any feeling attatched to it, other then that I might feel what they are feeling, but I do this all the time. try to figure out people and things motives, what makes it tick, why its doing what its doing. It doesnt get exhausting it just how I perceive people and figure them out. I find it useful then just letting them go by without being analyzed. The unknown annoys me. I dont think it makes you an asshole. I think it makes you extra perceptive. People ARE puzzles to be solved.

This is closer to the way I think about people. I'm pretty good at figuring them out, but the full embodiment of their feelings, as described in the first post, is pretty alien to me.

I want to practice it more though ... I'd like to be able to do it with less of a need to focus while doing it.

I can think that sort of way when I tell myself to, but that is by no means my natural thinking process when I look at something or someone. I almost never think in that sort of way, because that process just isn't useful to me (its kind of moot). I more often consider what they are thinking as opposed to what they are feeling. If it is with a person then I will sometimes think about what they are feeling, but it is more in a context of what they are thinking about feelings, then what they actually feel. Sort of "they have thought or done xyz so they will feel abc because they are expressing fgh", but even then that is not a terribly good descripton of it.

I can see the use of doing that, but I can sort of get to those conclusions in a different way (similar to what I described above). It really comes down to Fi. Any person can think that way regardless of their functions, but Fi controlled people will default to that sort of process before other types for the most part. My Fi is pretty low so I don't do that process much.

Although I'm pretty good at figuring out people's thoughts, I'm terrible at predicting their feelings. I never know how anything is going to make someone feel ... I just make a guess and see how it plays out. It seems that Fi could make this a lot easier for someone (me) who's a bit weak on the Ni (and Si).

 

[freybell]

I find this thread funny... because I thought everybody did this . Intent is as important to me as action... So when someone says something to me, I can tell by tone of voice what their attitude probably is towards whatever they're saying. And I don't think I've ever separated intent and action because to me they really seem like the same thing

Think about watching a cop show/movie. A law and order type deal. You're watching the show and you know someone's guilty, so all your senses are perked up looking for clues as to which person is the criminal... it's like that irl only you see things other than "I'm guilty"... you see "I'm sad or angry or confused or insecure or excited"...

Sometimes it can be distracting for me, because then I start thinking about how that person might react if I do something/say something to influence them... and then sometimes I opt out of doing or saying anything, just because I think someone might have a negative reaction to it... I even do that sometimes on these forums

[MENTION=1007]BlinkandThink[/MENTION] Why would this thread make you an asshole?

 

[BlinkandThink]

@BinkandThink, Why would this thread make you an asshole?

Because I wondered if anyone can be compassionate if they don't do this ... or if I have a cold way of viewing people. I don't feel cold about them at all ... actually the opposite. I care about them a lot, even if I don't always show it the best way. But the other day, a friend said to me:


"You just say what you think. And people might think it makes you an asshole, but I think it makes you an insane genius."


I immediately locked in on "asshole" (and secondarily "insane," but that's another issue altogether), and I wondered what about me could give this impression because I don't feel like an asshole at all.


And then lots of unrelated things happened and then I stumbled onto that Fi exercise and then more unrelated things happened and then I made this thread.

So ... yeah.

 

[freybell]

Because I wondered if anyone can be compassionate if they don't do this ... or if I have a cold way of viewing people. I don't feel cold about them at all ... actually the opposite. I care about them a lot, even if I don't always show it the best way. But the other day, a friend said to me:


"You just say what you think. And people might think it makes you an asshole, but I think it makes you an insane genius."


I immediately locked in on "asshole" (and secondarily "insane," but that's another issue altogether), and I wondered what about me could give this impression because I don't feel like an asshole at all.


And then lots of unrelated things happened and then I stumbled onto that Fi exercise and then more unrelated things happened and then I made this thread.

So ... yeah.

^^^This post proves you're not an ass.

My brother can sometimes come off as a total dick because he says what he thinks without really filtering... but something that he does really well is he makes his intentions really clear, so that the other person can't misinterpret them.

Like, he's learned that if he's going to criticize me, he has to explain why he's about to say something before actually giving the criticism. Or even things like reassuring someone of something first, and then saying something negative... I tutor students in writing--and even if something is AWFUL, I always find something good to say before I say something negative... I've heard other tutors skip the first step, and it never goes over well...

It may sound like kissing ass, but there are always ways to soften the blow of things... even if you don't personally find them offensive.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Although I'm pretty good at figuring out people's thoughts, I'm terrible at predicting their feelings. I never know how anything is going to make someone feel ... I just make a guess and see how it plays out. It seems that Fi could make this a lot easier for someone (me) who's a bit weak on the Ni (and Si).

Ah. I find those two mutually exclusive in most cases. They are very connected from what I observe. I largely use Fe to derive the feelings of others which is similar, but different to Fi processes. Both do pretty much the same thing when considering others. Ti and Te can also get to the same conclusions. It's what the judging functions do. Of course, It's going to be a lot easier to figure out what a person is feeling using Fi, instead of Ti. That goes without saying. Si and Ni shouldn't really effect how understand how someones feels. However, it could be limiting to what information you see, which in turn could effect it.

A starting place is doing just what the Fi descrition laid out. If that works for you, then practice, practice, practice .

 

[Feelings]

WTF I thought this was Fe. I have this capability, it kinda lurks around in the background mostly though. Fi and Te usually overrule Fe. Fe usually comes strong when my Fi and Te are satisfied.

 

[Satya]

You would get a lot more benefit out of just asking people what the feelings they are expressing mean. However, even they may not know. For one thing, only primary emotions are for satisfying needs and only in young children are they readily observable. Secondary emotions are the ego's response to primary emotions and are usually what you see in older children to adults.

For example, fear is a primary emotion. However, as we grow older we learn to deal with our primary emotions by trying to cover them up with secondary emotions, and as a result our reaction to our own fear could be many different secondary emotions such as hostility, anxiety, depression, shame, panic, apathy, etc. One adult may react to the fear of losing their job by simply taking on the feeling that they don't care about anything, whereas another may become hostile and violent, and another may become so anxious they can't sleep. How you would respond to a primary emotion is not necessarily the same as how another person would.

Fi seeks to clarify feelings in much the same way that Ti seeks to clarify thoughts. However, Fi can't use empathy in the same way that Ti uses logic. Fi also doesn't have external "scripts" to follow like Fe does. Fi does have a unique tool at its disposal though. Humans often mirror the emotions that they see in others without even realizing it. An Fi user is usually keenly aware of how one person's mood is affecting their mood. The Fi user can determine how they would feel in a similar situation and then compare it to what they are seeing in another person and see what the discrepancy is. That gives them an important piece of information because they can determine for themselves what the "appropriate" primary emotion is and the secondary emotion that the other individual is feeling. While that won't tell them what the need of an individual is, it will tell them the pattern by which a person deals with their emotions. Understanding that pattern is important because that tells an Fi user what a person's motivations are.

For example, people who use their anger to cover up their fear may be insecure and are trying to make other people feel just as insecure.

Or people who use their anger to cover up their sadness may be trying to tear people down to feel as bad as them. This is often the motivation that bullies have.

Or people who use anxiety to cover up their fear may feel helpless and so they are trying compensate by ruminating. Type A personalities live off of their anxiety, often because they fear failing even though mistakes are a part of life and growing.

Understanding the motivator is often more important than understanding the need because we all have the same basic needs but the ways we motivate ourselves can differ considerably. Unfortunately, this clarity of feelings seems to be as frustrating to an Fi user as the clarity of reason can be for a Ti user. I've watched some Fi users in social work struggle desperately to get people to substitute negative motivators like anxiety and apathy for positive ones like self affirmation, self appreciation, and self encouragement. The results are usually about as dismal as when I try to get a fundamentalist Christian to reasonably consider their interpretation of the Bible.

 

[dark_angel]

I actually do this on a constant basis, it is like breathing for me. I will intuit how they are feeling based on their body language, tone voice, look in the eye, their demeanour and how they are interacting with others and many many more depending on the situation, then only will I try to put myself in their shoes, if I cannot do this then I will not intuit further as intuition for me is not truth. If I can do it then I will try to play out what their thinking might be or is going to be and then it is still not 100 % as there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[88chaz88]

Does this mean as a Ti dom I hold the whole of humanity in contempt and don't give two shits about what they feel?

Cause if so, it's kinda right.

 

[BlinkandThink]

Excellent post, Satya!

You would get a lot more benefit out of just asking people what the feelings they are expressing mean. However, even they may not know.

The benefit is in dealing with people who want to be understood but aren't able to (or are reluctant to) answer the question. I'm not always able to answer the question myself, and I find it helpful when someone else can offer assistance. I'd like to be able to perform this service for a friend, when needed.

Fi seeks to clarify feelings in much the same way that Ti seeks to clarify thoughts. However, Fi can't use empathy in the same way that Ti uses logic. Fi also doesn't have external "scripts" to follow like Fe does. Fi does have a unique tool at its disposal though. Humans often mirror the emotions that they see in others without even realizing it. An Fi user is usually keenly aware of how one person's mood is affecting their mood. The Fi user can determine how they would feel in a similar situation and then compare it to what they are seeing in another person and see what the discrepancy is. That gives them an important piece of information because they can determine for themselves what the "appropriate" primary emotion is and the secondary emotion that the other individual is feeling. While that won't tell them what the need of an individual is, it will tell them the pattern by which a person deals with their emotions. Understanding that pattern is important because that tells an Fi user what a person's motivations are.

This is incredibly interesting ... and it sounds like a lot of work.

I've watched some Fi users in social work struggle desperately to get people to substitute negative motivators like anxiety and apathy for positive ones like self affirmation, self appreciation, and self encouragement. The results are usually about as dismal as when I try to get a fundamentalist Christian to reasonably consider their interpretation of the Bible.

Why do you think people are this rigid? (Is it what I just said about work?)

 

[Satya]

Why do you think people are this rigid? (Is it what I just said about work?)

Socialization.

That is pretty much it. For better or for worse, how we were socialized influences how we perceive and process our thoughts and feelings.

Fi users don't have to work any harder than anyone else. Their talents lie in clarifying motivations, just as a Ti users talents are in clarifying of ideas. It comes naturally to those who do it often.

Rigidity comes from incorporating a pattern of thought or feeling into your personal identity, and socialization is the primary means by how we accomplish that task.

 

[KazeCraven]

...

Sign me up for a capital T. I naturally pick up on people's visible emotion, and I kinda 'get' what people are feeling when their behavior significantly changes, but it's nowhere near this deep or thorough or constant.

Conversely, this sounds like a very good way to use my time. Very interesting perspective.

 

[894tt3h9]

I was reading this page: http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exegesis/How_to_Experience_Different_Function-Attitudes (if page is down, try: http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...t_Function-Attitudes&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us)


And the first Fi example intrigued me:
So I decided to try it out.


My results:

1. People suddenly seemed a lot more interesting because they turned into puzzles I was trying to solve.
2. I had a hard time paying attention to whether or not they were actually saying anything useful, let alone whether anything else important was happening.

Do people really do this all day?? How do they do anything else? Doesn't it make interacting with people exhausting? Am I an asshole?

I do this all the time actually. It's not as explicit as what's outlined in the example though. I just sense what people are feeling and why they're feeling it and what they're needing. There's usually very little guesswork involved for me. I can just tell. But I suppose subconsciously my brain is working this out for me. I could just be observing someone at a distance and know what they're feeling and what's going on with them in that particular situation. My intution can be very strong in these situations.