Church Goer's Support Tourture?

[Shai Gar]

Another thing that you must understand is that this thread is not about "Christians" but about "Church-Goers". As the atheist, sometime theological student, son of a priest I have seen many MANY church goers who claim to be Christian, but simply don't abide by any of Jesus's teachings.

There's a huge difference in Christian and Church Goer.

 

[Satya]

I am quite used to it, though not in places I keep company with.

"Is it any wonder the way I feel toward Christianity?" unquote

Where in that quote, which you have posted without any link to verify I even said it, does it say that I either hate Christians or Christianity? Where in this quote does it state specifically how I feel about Christianity?

I will help you out by posting a comment I made about how I feel about Christianity.

Also, I specifically mentioned right wing Christians. Maybe you feel that right wing Christian are all Christians, but I firmly disagree. The religion is immaterial to my point and it's the political vendetta that distorts it. Being right wing means you hold to the position that there needs to be a social hierarchy. To me, the term right wing Christian is an oxymoron. Right wing Christian people who claim to be Christian, a religion which endorses neighborly love and piety, but politically support torture and oppression, are living hypocrites and cowards. If you are one, then I pity you.

Notice how that quote is linked so people can actually go see where I said it? Here is a hint. I said it in this thread. Is it any wonder the way I feel toward Christianity? A religion based on such beautiful tenets is twisted and distorted by people like you. I don't hate it, nor do I hate Christians. I feel a great deal of frustration that people like you believe they have any grasp of it. But I will demonstrate one of its tenets right now. I forgive you. It's clear you just don't know any better.

 

[just me]

Delete a post and ask someone to quote it. Cool.
I shall attempt to remain passive today. Please do not engage.

 

[Shai Gar]

I didn't delete anything. I don't even know the post you're talking about.

 

[Satya]

Delete a post and ask someone to quote it. Cool.
I shall attempt to remain passive today. Please do not engage.

I haven't deleted a thing. Your desire to continue to make unfounded accusations just proves my point.

 

[arbygil]

Sheesh...

I have no words right now, mostly because it's frustrating. This is a topic about Christians and torture. Do some Christians believe in torture? Sure. Do others hate torture? Sure. Was the report biased? Probably - nearly all studies are. I am a Christian. Do I believe in torture? No.

So...I don't see this as a conversation about Christian bashing. I think Indigo said

And yet, I am not suprized by this at all! Discuss.

after the link, and that's all. The rest of the opinions came from various members on the forum. Do I think there's an inordinate amount of "Christian bashing" on the forum? That's another topic entirely - and I think it's been discussed in some detail on the board. Do we *really* have to define torture, or water down the language to have an intelligent discussion about it?

As for Right-Wing Christians, there are different degrees of RW Christians, too. I'd call myself moderate, but if I went to a fired up Baptist church with strong political ties, I'd probably be declared a liberal and tossed on my hiney. But I have RW Christian friends who don't believe in torture, and RW friends who don't even vote. I wouldn't toss the baby with the bathwater and say all RW Christians are the same, but nor would I say that all Christians are perfect angels and wouldn't harm a fly (*points to the pre-civil rights, 1950s era U.S. "Christians").

There is a balance. And everyone is unique. I will not stand up and say one group is better than another; but I will stand up and speak for individuals. Mobs don't make sense...but individuals do.

 

[Shai Gar]

I thought it was about church goers and torture, not christians and torture.

Also, there's no such thing as right wing christians. Jesus was a Libertarian.

 

[arbygil]

Church-goers...I'll take that. That is definitely a major definition change, so technically it's not necessarily about Christians, just people who go to church. Although I'm guessing the pollster wasn't thinking in those deep terms and I'm guessing he was lumping everyone together in one category.

Well, I suppose the definitions need...defining. What is the strictest definition of a "right-winger"? And what is the strictest definition of a Christian? Some things are not mutually compatible, like an "Atheist Christian" or a "Satanist Christian." Would that be the case for "Right Wing Christian" ?

Or perhaps the US definition modifies things a bit.

And I agree, Jesus was a Libertarian. Or a Socialist, depending on who you talk to.

 

[IndigoSensor]

You all know I have a hard time describing things, and I think trying to define things usually falls under the catagory of semantics so I assume people have an inherent concept of what I mean. I was mostly referring to strict evangelical church goers. Hence the "That makes sense!" remark.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

That's why I don't really trust the statistic. It's too undefined in too many variables :/

 

[arbygil]

Oh, trust me, Indigo, I'm not trying to split hairs you know I love you.

But looking at the whole picture, if jm is frustrated because s/he feels the word "Christian" is synonymous with "every Church-goer," then jm is assuming every church-going Christian would fit under that poll, and perhaps s/he feels uncomfortable with this. But we know this poll doesn't include everyone, since I attend church and yet I'm against torture. But the intent of the poll, I think, was to include everyone who goes to church...which makes the data faulty and gives the wrong impression of everyone who goes to church. And unless we read the polled questions, it's impossible to know if the data might be skewed based on a certain area of the country, certain religious sects, certain Republicans, etc.

I think it's a simple case of misunderstanding and of jm taking things somewhat personally when they don't need to be.

But that's the problem, isn't it? It's a case of misunderstanding based on the information at hand. When "Christian" is mentioned, it doesn't always mean the same thing in all countries. So maybe we need to define things more so there aren't misunderstandings. Which...can be splitting hairs.

At a certain point, jm, you'll have to say how you feel and not coat the idea in pretty colors and rainbows. Like, if you don't like something, say, "I don't think that's a fair assessment of all Christians" instead of "let's bake the North Koreans some cookies" (not direct quote...but I'll get one if you want). No, I don't always agree with what Shai, Indigo, or Satya say, but it doesn't make me dislike them. I think all three are witty, unique, talented, and insightful individuals...and if I don't like what they have to say, I don't listen or I don't respond. Some times I think they're flat out wrong, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying their company. I don't need to be right and the other person wrong to enjoy their company.

(Still, if I feel as if I need to say something I will, but I usually only cut in if I think things are getting too rough for comfort).

*Sigh.* Okay, now I've written too much. Suffice it to say that people are people, and we're all unique in the way we see things.

((Geez. Now I sound like some crazy self-help book, so I know it's time to quit typing.))

 

[alcyone]

I don't care if you are a church-goer, Christian, whatever....

Torture is wrong period.


Unless it's consensual. In which case it doesn't actually qualify as torture

 

[arbygil]

I agree - there is no rhyme or reason for torture, IMO. It makes no sense and it's harmful in every sense of the word.

But...not so sure of the torture for pleasure aspect (mutual parties and all that). Although I did have a friend who was into S&M, I never had the courage to ask her about it.

 

[poetrygirl]

What does this have to do with "this generation as a whole"? Baby boomers are the ones in charge and they are the ones issuing the orders. Do you honestly think Generation X or Y has had much influence on whether or not the US used torture tactics?

By generation I mean the people who are alive today as a whole. Genes mean nothing I'm implying that in this day and age it's sad to see people agreeing with these things.