*beyond theism
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If you call this man a Christian then you have entered into a world so vague that has no want for solidity.
apparently,
I have entered into a world so vague...
and you remain steadfast in a world of solidity.
.
his message makes sense.
i'm curious to understand why you would reject it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJICIGQl0JU&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube - The Call of Jesus -- John Shelby Spong[/ame]
I agree. If you're going to define "God" so vaguely that the concept is practically meaningless, then what's the point? You might as well proclaim the divinity of quarks.
For the first video: Then why call it God? Why not just call it life? Life itself doesn't have the power to give you anything that a god is supposedly supposed to be able to offer you, such as "eternal life" which is central to the faith of the Episcopal Church (John Shelby's denomination). Further, the denomination teaches that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one, so by saying that God itself is just merely "life" juxtaposed with the belief that Jesus was a "fully human incarnation" supernaturally capable of rising from the dead makes absolutely no sense.
For the second video: I don't really have a problem with the message he is preaching, it is very nice and I wish that that really was the central message of all religion. However, the Episcopalian belief that the Old Testament and New Testament were written by people under "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit supports the argument that if this is the only message they centre their attention on, they are ignoring a large part of the Bible as well as a large part of God's message. However, all in all, I am not opposed to all religious sects just stripping down their beliefs to "let's just love one another," in fact, I think the world might be a better place with less conflict as a result of doing so.
For the second video: I don't really have a problem with the message he is preaching, it is very nice and I wish that that really was the central message of all religion. However, the Episcopalian belief that the Old Testament and New Testament were written by people under "inspiration" of the Holy Spirit supports the argument that if this is the only message they centre their attention on, they are ignoring a large part of the Bible as well as a large part of God's message. However, all in all, I am not opposed to all religious sects just stripping down their beliefs to "let's just love one another," in fact, I think the world might be a better place with less conflict as a result of doing so.
Those who build on rocks often prize their stability, no matter how humble their shack may be.
Tell me how is the sand?
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Pretty much this. I think he has some interesting stuff to say, that is rooted in some loose concepts on spirituality that I personally share. Nevertheless the definition is being diluted down to the point where it is kind of meaningless. That might work for some, but many people need a lot more solidity with there religious beliefs. Without it, they have no support or comfort.
to me, john shelby hit the nail on the head here with what it means imo to be spiritual. in enneagram this is called essence, the source of all that is that - as he said; fills every possible nook and cranny from the quark to the cosmos. when everything is made from the same source, its inherently equal, and right, and as it should be.
i would say you could call it just that. i think if we can see ourselves and everything in our lives as manifestations of god, we can not only appreciate ourselves, but appreciate eachother more and as a legitimate connected source of god/innocence/life wtv you want to call it. this realization is what encourages us to live in the moment and life to its fullest.
but i think to do this first we must be able to see and recognize this source within ourselves, and thats what diamond approach (enneagram) is all about, helping one see their true nature through dissolving the personality. it doesn't feel so much like a religion or psychological theory, but more of a realization that what you are right now is natural and ok, that theres nothing you should or shouldn't be, everything including yourself is just the natural evolution of what it means to exist, and that you've had this source in you all along you just couldn't see it.
i would say you could call it just that. i think if we can see ourselves and everything in our lives as manifestations of god, we can not only appreciate ourselves, but appreciate eachother more and as a legitimate connected source of god/innocence/life wtv you want to call it. this realization is what encourages us to live in the moment and life to its fullest.
but i think to do this first we must be able to see and recognize this source within ourselves, and thats what diamond approach (enneagram) is all about, helping one see their true nature through dissolving the personality. it doesn't feel so much like a religion or psychological theory, but more of a realization that what you are right now is natural and ok, that theres nothing you should or shouldn't be, everything including yourself is just the natural evolution of what it means to exist, and that you've had this source in you all along you just couldn't see it.
I haven't had the chance to watch the video yet but this is an excellent post.
I don't mind the new age doctrine so much as the fact that he's masquerading his new age doctrine as Christian theology. When people look at him and assume that this is what Christianity is about and then look at me expecting the same thing, it set's me back a proverbial millennia in time to explain what it means to be a Christian.
This is exactly it. I don't mind the message that he's preaching, but I certainly don't believe that this is at all the only message that Jesus laid out for humanity. They've basically twisted the original doctrine to become more appealing to potential followers that are living in this time. I don't remember who was quoted as saying it but this is a paraphrase, "The Episcopal Church is like Catholic-lite. Same rituals, half the guilt."
barny...work with me here
if we ridicule each other
how will we ever understand one another?
as a minister, it's your job to talk about these things
just remember, Jesus' message was love, not religion
the religious leaders of the day hated him for it
do you desire a more complicated message?
do you crave the comfort of being morally superior to your neighbor?
to be so pious is to miss the point of Jesus
pious judgement is exactly what is wrong with Christianity.
I don't believe that Jesus came to establish Christianity.
I certainly don't think he would be happy with the Christian church today.
I get the feeling that your view is quite different.
also... this is not new age doctrine
you perhaps have not understood him just yet
i'd recommend watching the videos again
keep in mind, this is no competition
consider that there might be some truth we can glean from listening to teachers like this...
even if we come from a different background
i dont see this man trying to win people over to the episcopal church
he aims to reform Christianity
he is passionate about the message of Love
the man knows his history
he speaks with intelligence and eloquence
makes some really amazing points in this video
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=563jJbf9DKY&feature=related"]YouTube - Spong on Paul[/ame]
I've been watching his videos and reading over his sight from the moment you sent me that VM, I also think you don't understand Jesus' message.
What sponge is offering is something very worldly rapped in spiritual garments. The core of his message is that all we have to do love one another and the core of that message is all we have to do. Don't get me wrong, love is vastly important but any secular humanist, Muslim, Jew, spiritualist and any other name under the sun can preach about this so long as they have a silver tongue.
Christianity offers so much more to an individual a Taylor Swift love song.
Finally, don't take my passion as sense of superiority. I am righteous, but not by my own hands and if I am morally superior then it nothing but a reflection of the one who sent me.
Spong seems to overlook the different ways in which God can be present in a particular place:
1. Virtually (in the exercise of power) - God, as the cause of all existence is present wherever there is some existing thing - but only insofar as a cause is contiguous with its effect. (This kind of presence goes for miracles as well).
2. By grace (grace is a participation in the life - knowledge, will, love, etc. of God). In this sense God is present in souls, which are in the state of grace. This form of presence is greater than his virtual presence, because it is connected with His internal life, not simply with the exercise of power.
3. Substantial presence. This is God Himself. But since God is a spirit, that is to say, he is not material, he is not anywhere at all - so that He Himself (heaven) is more a state than a place. There are two exceptions, however: 1. After the time of the incarnation, God Himself is said to be wherever (physical place) Christ's body is. 2. After transubstantiation in the Mass, Christ's body and blood are where the visible species of bread and wine are and so, God is said to reside in Tabernacles.
Spong only seems to think of God's presence in the virtual sense.
1. Virtually (in the exercise of power) - God, as the cause of all existence is present wherever there is some existing thing - but only insofar as a cause is contiguous with its effect. (This kind of presence goes for miracles as well).
2. By grace (grace is a participation in the life - knowledge, will, love, etc. of God). In this sense God is present in souls, which are in the state of grace. This form of presence is greater than his virtual presence, because it is connected with His internal life, not simply with the exercise of power.
3. Substantial presence. This is God Himself. But since God is a spirit, that is to say, he is not material, he is not anywhere at all - so that He Himself (heaven) is more a state than a place. There are two exceptions, however: 1. After the time of the incarnation, God Himself is said to be wherever (physical place) Christ's body is. 2. After transubstantiation in the Mass, Christ's body and blood are where the visible species of bread and wine are and so, God is said to reside in Tabernacles.
Spong only seems to think of God's presence in the virtual sense.
please try again
I dont know why you are bringing Taylor Swift into this
I was talking about Love, capital L
Not puppy love, not disney love...
...
"I am righteous but not by my own hands..."
really?
"...and if I am morally superior then it nothing but a reflection of the one who sent me."
this is scary
gives me the impression that you do indeed assume moral superiority here
this is a problem in the world
who wouldnt want to believe that God is on their side?
unfortunately, this line of thinking has been used to justify a lot of violence.
hate crimes, holy war, crusades,
fueled by passionate individuals claiming superiority
the cycle goes on
did you watch the video discussing Paul?
the whole video is worth your time
just curious to see what you think about his remarks at the end... starting around 6:45
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I have no idea what you are going on about. He's defending his take on christanity and religion (not spiritualism), which he is very versed in. Your equating his views to violent acts that were done in history? I'm sorry man but you are completely off base here and all it sounds to me like is your just being anti religious and just as bias as fundementalists can be just on the other side of the coin.
Overlooking barnabas' self-righteous dogmatic and terribly outdated claims to attack the one opposing him (regardless of how unversed he might be) says something about you. And it's not good.
[MENTION=387]IndigoSensor[/MENTION]
leave me alone pls
I'm not so far off base.
Getting to the heart of the matter and using historical facts to make a point... that was my intent.
The way that people view religion/spirituality is a pretty big deal.
Remember the preacher man that was going to burn the Qur'an? Wasn't too long ago...
I bet he felt justified through his moral conviction. He claims he is a Christian, but does he follow Christ?
Jesus said "love your enemies".
This is the last thing we want to do.
This concept is not easy to internalize.
Whether you think Jesus was the son of God or not, his message was both simple and profound.
I think about Jesus quite a bit. If I see him misrepresented, I am inclined to say so.
Is there no room for criticism in Christianity today?
The point of this thread is not to attack, but to question the beliefs that have been passed down to us.
Truth is, some of the most righteous people can live with the poorest attitudes and defend their stance with moral conviction.
If we consider Jesus' example, it seems that being righteous is missing the point.
We do see that Jesus gave the pharisees a piece of his mind, more than once. The religious leaders of his day hated him for it.
As far as I can tell, people have twisted the life and message of Jesus to stroke their ego.
I'm not saying that I know it all, just calling it how I see it.
leave me alone pls
I'm not so far off base.
Getting to the heart of the matter and using historical facts to make a point... that was my intent.
The way that people view religion/spirituality is a pretty big deal.
Remember the preacher man that was going to burn the Qur'an? Wasn't too long ago...
I bet he felt justified through his moral conviction. He claims he is a Christian, but does he follow Christ?
Jesus said "love your enemies".
This is the last thing we want to do.
This concept is not easy to internalize.
Whether you think Jesus was the son of God or not, his message was both simple and profound.
I think about Jesus quite a bit. If I see him misrepresented, I am inclined to say so.
Is there no room for criticism in Christianity today?
The point of this thread is not to attack, but to question the beliefs that have been passed down to us.
Truth is, some of the most righteous people can live with the poorest attitudes and defend their stance with moral conviction.
If we consider Jesus' example, it seems that being righteous is missing the point.
We do see that Jesus gave the pharisees a piece of his mind, more than once. The religious leaders of his day hated him for it.
As far as I can tell, people have twisted the life and message of Jesus to stroke their ego.
I'm not saying that I know it all, just calling it how I see it.