Are all men pigs? Or are women secret swines as well?

[secretsmile]

I don't think all men are pigs, no.

I think it's not just the media, but the socialization we experience from infancy - what's encouraged in little boys, what's encouraged in little girls. And don't forget that women have been sexually oppressed for a long, long time. I think we have come to a point in time when it's more socially acceptable for a woman to express her sexuality in some ways (talking amongst one another about how HOT some guy is), but not in others (dressing provocatively).

Some men are offended by being objectified by a sexually aggressive woman. Some women are offended by being objectified by a sexually aggressive man. I think it can be piggish and unbecoming on both sides. It should probably also be noted that it's more likely for a male to engage in "cat calling," which is just...I don't know, not the most appealing way to be treated.

Today I was the 'victim' of cat calling by a couple of 14, 15 year old boys in Taco Bell. They even went so far as to use the word "sexy." Talk about bizarre, but kinda funny.

 

[acd]

Some men are offended by being objectified by a sexually aggressive woman.

I was surprised to learn that in my experience.

 

[pogo_<3]

The problem I have with advertisment is that they no longer just use nearly nudity to play on the reactions of people, like the example used earlier, axe body spray. Its not just "Oh, men like women, so lets have easy women crawl all over this stuff." But they use indecent exposure for EVERYTHING. Like lotion and soap commercials. You can't see it work on the people, so why are the showing images to people of the actors and actresses putting it on. Its creepy. And bra commercials. I honestly will believe them, or try one out if I'm curious. But I don't want to see a buch of nearly naked women standing in their underwear to show the "natural curve" that the bra provides.Just saying...

 

[acd]

I HATE that f'n body lotion commercial (forget which brand)
Where it has the woman slathering it all over her legs and her husband or what not watching her and the voice over goes, "The difference between going out and staying in."

As if women need a body lotion to incite their men to please them--As if two partners can't mutually decide, "Let's stay in and ya know...!"

In a sense, it suggests that we're not equal enough to voice what we want, we've got to use trickery and seduction and feminine wiles to get what we want.

 

[slant]

I understood that it was meant as a generalization, but my point is that in society today, that generalization is more diffiicult to apply.

So is this generalization:

Every woman has seen a man in their life, whether it be on TV, or in person, that they look at and think that they're attractive.

 

[Puck]

I'll quite happily be compared with a pig. I love pigs.

Anyway I wrote a play about this topic when I was an angry youth. My basic argument was that people are so influenced by society, that to stand outside of this - of the stereotypes assigned to you by virtue of gender - is a pointless exercise. So the choice is to embrace everything, or else be an unhappy outsider. At least that was the conclusion my play arrived at.

I should add to this that I don't neccessarily agree with the way things are. I will always choose variety or shades of grey over black and white.

 

[54192&#cmy]

Sex is a wonderful thing. And I guess that makes me a pig. And my woman too... People and their hangups...

 

[Julia]

The gender roles are still different between the sexes in a variety of instances. I work teaching in a one-on-one setting in a small, somewhat private room. I recently had a man get too fresh with me and left me feeling quite threatened. Because traditionally the role of male is pursuer, this was more distressing because I think he has the potential to latch on, and keep coming after me no matter how hard I try to make a boundary. I grew up with a single mother who was always very modest, but still, creepy men would latch on and not leave no matter how hard she worked to tell them to go - or even calling the police. It isn't the mere act of being looked at or even fantacized about. It is the social dynamic of that leading to pursuit and entitlement that makes all the difference. I dress very modestly for work and have a continual awareness of how my presence affects men in my work environment. The truth is that every man I teach is physically stronger than me, so I feel aware of making myself less appealing to cut down on any sense of entitlement from them.

I am sometimes disturbed by being ogled. A few years ago during the hot summer I wore a cute top that had spaghetti straps and was a soft, tan cotton with pretty beadwork. It was sold at JCPenny's as a summer shirt, but somehow the overall presentation still looked too intimate. I went out with my husband at the time for dinner and movie. The way I was stared at rattled me. It wasn't admiration, but this kind of entitlement that made me feel like a piece of meat. I never wore that in public again.

I don't think "men are pigs". There are plenty of decent guys out there and I'm really glad they find women attractive. Believe me, the man I love/trust can ogle me all he wants. It's often a compliment, but for those men who feel threatening and who have that objectifying entitlement, it is both scary and grotesque.

 

[the]

women arent swines.... just dumb.

 

[acd]

Glad to see you're back, Rogo.. :hat:

 

[Julia]

women arent swines.... just dumb.

That statement defines women in terms of lesser power on two accounts. "Men are pigs" is rude and unfair, but it is based on their dominant role. "Women are dumb" is rude and unfair, and it is based on their lack of dominance.

It might help for men to relate to this if they imagine the following. Imagine you are physically weaker than 90% of men, and those same 90% are gay and make comments about your sexuality, and sometimes pursue you in a threatening way. They stare at your body when you walk by, honk their horns, and do wolf whistles. You then call that group of people by a negative term and they come back and call you an idiot.

 

[the]

That statement defines women in terms of lesser power on two accounts. "Men are pigs" is rude and unfair, but it is based on their dominant role. "Women are dumb" is rude and unfair, and it is based on their lack of dominance.

No, both descriptors are true. The problem lies in that you can't describe anyone with one word or catch phrase.

 

[Koba]

Trust me, this kind of pornographic advertising works. Companies spend a lot of money researching people and trying to figure out what works. The OP talked about men in underwear for advertisements, even sometimes for things like watches. The funny thing is that women look at pornographic advertisements of other women more than men. I mean, flip through "The Cosmos" or a similar magazine. I don't think it's sexual in the sense that all women are at least closet bisexuals, but I do think it gets women viewing themselves in a different way too.

[SIZE=Default]

I am sometimes disturbed by being ogled. A few years ago during the hot summer I wore a cute top that had spaghetti straps and was a soft, tan cotton with pretty beadwork. It was sold at JCPenny's as a summer shirt, but somehow the overall presentation still looked too intimate. I went out with my husband at the time for dinner and movie. The way I was stared at rattled me. It wasn't admiration, but this kind of entitlement that made me feel like a piece of meat. I never wore that in public again.[/SIZE]

I think women's clothing is kind of designed to get women "ogled" at (to varying degrees), while men's clothing is more for utility. Yes, men and women are different physically, but that doesn't mean clothing for women couldn't be as utility oriented as it is for men, in a way that specifically benefits women.

And naturally if a man sees a woman wearing something like that, they assume that she's wearing it because she wants to show off. Sometimes they even are showing off, which validates it even more, but I think it's mostly an egoistic way of looking at things paired with the media, where there's lots of women who portray themselves as dressing a certain way to show off, more for the money more than anything else. It's all very cyclical.

I do "blame" women who consistently dress in a way they know will get a certain reaction from men, and then complain about men when they consistently get that reaction. To me. When the hell did I stalk you from my car while beeping my car horn? Yes, that's messed up, no, it's not all men, and you could take more steps to prevent it. Still I try to look at all of this as being more than an individual issue, and to accomdate the people around me.

If women reacted to me the way many men react to women they find attractive, I would probably have mixed feelings.

[SIZE=Default]For example, those flipping men's Axe deodorants.The Axe marketing is most blatantly sexist.[/SIZE]

Ha, axe deodorant was the really cool thing to use after gym when I was in middle school. I was missing my deodorant, and someone let me use their spray, and I used axe for a while just because it worked better than anything I had tried, although I eventually tried other things. Now I'm considering baking soda when my current supply runs out, although it makes me feel like a hippie. No, seriously, you can use baking soda, read about it.

 

[Koba]

[SIZE=Default]
It might help for men to relate to this if they imagine the following. Imagine you are physically weaker than 90% of men, and those same 90% are gay and make comments about your sexuality, and sometimes pursue you in a threatening way. They stare at your body when you walk by, honk their horns, and do wolf whistles. You then call that group of people by a negative term and they come back and call you an idiot.[/SIZE]

"Imagine if you went to prison."

 

[acd]

I think women's clothing is kind of designed to get women "ogled" at (to varying degrees), while men's clothing is more for utility. Yes, men and women are different physically, but that doesn't mean clothing for women couldn't be as utility oriented as it is for men, in a way that specifically benefits women.

And naturally if a man sees a woman wearing something like that, they assume that she's wearing it because she wants to show off. Sometimes they even are showing off, which validates it even more, but I think it's mostly an egoistic way of looking at things paired with the media, where there's lots of women who portray themselves as dressing a certain way to show off, more for the money more than anything else. It's all very cyclical.

I do "blame" women who consistently dress in a way they know will get a certain reaction from men, and then complain about men when they consistently get that reaction. To me. When the hell did I stalk you from my car while beeping my car horn? Yes, that's messed up, no, it's not all men, and you could take more steps to prevent it. Still I try to look at all of this as being more than an individual issue, and to accomdate the people around me.

Women should wear what they want to wear. Why should we be made to feel sleezy and dehumanized and cheap if we feel like wearing cute spaghetti strap tank tops etc?

That mindset just goes to show that first and foremost, women are seen as sex objects. There's nothing inherently shameful about our bodies.

I think ogling is the man's problem, not the woman's. Have the self-control not to gawk at a pretty lady. Blaming women for being ogled is like blaming the victim of a crime for being assaulted.

I've held this mindset for years. When I was in middle school I always got into trouble for wearing the spaghetti strap tank tops. I wore them anyway because it occurred to me back then that it's not my problem if a boy can't pay attention because my shoulders and collarbone are showing. It's his problem for not having the respect for me because of my perceived otherness from himself.

 

[Eniko]

It's a very slippery slope to say "if she's wearing that then she's asking to be ogled" because it's so easy to get to "if she's wearing that she's asking to be raped". Of course, almost all people who say the former don't like this argument so it usually doesn't get anywhere with them.

And then there are the people who say the latter. They make me wonder if we shouldn't have institutionalized genetic cleansing.

 

[Koba]

[SIZE=Default]Women should wear what they want to wear. Why should we be made to feel sleezy and dehumanized and cheap if we feel like wearing cute spaghetti strap tank tops etc?

That mindset just goes to show that first and foremost, women are seen as sex objects. There's nothing inherently shameful about our bodies.

I think ogling is the man's problem, not the woman's. Have the self-control not to gawk at a pretty lady. Blaming women for being ogled is like blaming the victim of a crime for being assaulted.

I've held this mindset for years. When I was in middle school I always got into trouble for wearing the spaghetti strap tank tops. I wore them anyway because it occurred to me back then that it's not my problem if a boy can't pay attention because my shoulders and collarbone are showing. It's his problem for not having the respect for me because of my perceived otherness from himself.[/SIZE]

Well, I think you kind of have to take culture into account. There's nothing innately sexual about most of the things that we associate with sex, but in the context of our society and culture, they become so. It's not that we just percieve them that way, they actually are that way because of how we interact. I think it's very important to try improve culture and move forward, but we can't do that by pretending the present way of things doesn't exist.

Doesn't mean I'll give a woman a hard time for wearing what she wants though. I'm not accepting of it per se, but I don't see it as an individual issue and I don't think it would really fix anything for that one person to adjust their lifestyle. One of my best friends for years was someone who seems caught up on wearing things with noticeable cleavage, and she doesn't even know my thoughts about this. I didn't try to hide my thoughts, but the issue of what I thought about women's clothing never came up, and it's not something I laid awake at night worrying about. (Edit: Actually I thought about a lot of this while I was "going shopping" with her, which was mostly looking at women's clothes. She seemed to enjoy doing this with me but was confused about why I wasn't bored.)

I shouldn't have to say this since it's not related to my argument, but whenever I try to discuss issues pertaining to women with women, women get extremely defensive and start looking for personal issues on my part to explain my thoughts, so I want to prevent that (men just think I'm silly for thinking about it at all). So I think a woman should wear whatever she wants, I think women in general have no reason in our current society to have clothes that are far more revealing than men's clothing or simply less useful, besides helping them to be percieved a certain way, along with all the other factors. This isn't a moralistic argument about what individual people should do, but me trying to understand how people interact. As near as I can tell, women are very bought up into anti-women beliefs themselves, so I can't just take the general consensus of women and call it feminism. I'm still going to have a male viewpoint and I'm still going to make some mistakes, but at least I'm trying.

Like I said, I do take it personally if women start talking to me about how bad men are because of the actions of the few, espicially when it just about always happens when they dress a certain way. I'm pretty sure many women would get upset if I started going on about how women are completely irrational and can't think things through for themselves, even though I've known several women who this applies to. I really just don't need to hear it, espicially from someone I've tried to be a friend to. This is the only time I'll really get upset with someone over something like this.

[SIZE=Default]It's a very slippery slope to say "if she's wearing that then she's asking to be ogled" because it's so easy to get to "if she's wearing that she's asking to be raped". Of course, almost all people who say the former don't like this argument so it usually doesn't get anywhere with them.

And then there are the people who say the latter. They make me wonder if we shouldn't have institutionalized genetic cleansing.

It's basically the same line of thinking, actually, except we have women in entertainment basically saying the first. People soak up that kind of stuff a lot more than they realize. I'd be willing to wager that the first helps propagate the second to a degree, although there's no way to measure that at this point.

However, I do think that if X keeps happening when you do Y, and you don't want X to happen, it's stupid to keep doing Y. If Y really matters to you, then take responsibility for X too, rather than defiantly doing Y and then complaining about X. This is just basic logic. I'm not blaming you for X, but if they know Y will lead to that beforehand, they need to take responsibility (and by the same token, if they don't know, they have no means or reason to take responsibility). I've gone through this on more than one occassion and I don't sit around blaming other people and acting confused. This is the individual side of things.
[/SIZE]

 

[Eniko]

I agree that anyone who knowingly makes themselves a target needs to take responsibility for that, however that doesn't mean that what's done to them because they knowingly made themselves a target is right. I realize you realize that, but most people fail utterly at making that distinction.

 

[Koba]

[SIZE=Default]I agree that anyone who knowingly makes themselves a target needs to take responsibility for that, however that doesn't mean that what's done to them because they knowingly made themselves a target is right. I realize you realize that, but most people fail utterly at making that distinction.[/SIZE]

Alrighty. I agree then.

 

[Wyote]

So knowingly allowing something is different from provoking? If somebody provokes another person, are they at all to blame or is it still the other person's fault for being provoked? And if they are to blame for provoking, isn't "allowing" it a form of provocation?

It seems to be an equal balance for both sides.