Youth Housing and mandatory Bible studies.

[Quiet]

I think those rules are more or less a good thing. Most people that are in that vulnerable position to need housing also need other things like community support, structure and the chance to talk with peers. I am assuming the organisation would assist people to find work and encourage them to maintain it. This is a good thing because it helps people become more indepenadant. Curfews are important for encouraging life structure, organisation and maintaining order in a house full of young people. Attending church and bible studies gives people an opportunity to reach out to greater community support, learn things, and check in with others about how their life is going.

This is a private organisation that obviously is built on strong values and beliefs. And they are helping people that need help. Why shouldnt the people being helped learn more about the beliefs of these people that are helping them?

I am not religious. In some ways i am even anti religious. I grew up with christianity and churches. My dad has been a pastor. Ive led sunday school and played keyboard for services. My parents have led atleast a million bible studies and services. My relatives own and run a bible college. I disagree with much of what i learned in terms of theology and i am not a believer. I find many beliefs and religious interpretations shocking, confusing and offensive, and i find others practical, true, beautiful and interesting. And there is no such thing as a 'christian'. All christians have different beliefs and values and their own indidvidual relationship with their spirituality, culture and community. But the community spirit, the support, the genuine kinship and kindness of some of the christians i have met is just incredible and beautiful. I may not agree with their beliefs but these are some of the most beautiful people i have ever met that genuinely want to help others and enrich others lives.

Ive always known that if i was ever stuck, lost, hungry, homeless or needed help i could go to a christian church. This may not be the experience that everyone else has had, but this is the experience ive had. Regardless of what some Christians believe, these are often the first people to help someone in need. There is obviously something good about the beliefs and values of these people. And these people volunteer to help society, maybe society has something important to learn from these people

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION]

It's great to be open minded.

The issue is however that most people that go to this organization are complaining about it. It's clearly not making a good impression.

Maybe they are to blame for being closed minded and ignorant, yes. I have to wonder though how an organization can't be self aware enough to realize that putting people off regardless of how ignorant and resistant they are does not help themselves to be understood any better.

People can be petty, ignorant and judgmental, and this is the world. What good is it if these people continue to be the same afterwards?

Society may have something important to learn from this, but society is apparently not ready, and until organizations can take a more enlightened path where they realize that they must guide those who may not yet know any better and treating it as building trust and knowledge among those who have neither, it will remain not ready.

 

[Barnabas]

Just going to post an update, Grace landing tends to be very lenient with it's Bible studies often trying to make it so that they work within every bodies schedules, and those that can't make it do to work or school aren't punished in any sort of way. The same goes for Sunday service. The group also doesn't discriminate against practitioners of other faiths(or no faiths with their current situation) and allows anybody to take part in their services.

The organization started as group that wanted to provide house for young men who aged out of the foster-care system but has since expanded to taking on any young man who has found himself in need of housing(including those with violent criminal histories that other organizations won't take.)

I really wasn't expecting this thread to blow up like this, figured I'd only get a couple of responses. Also surprised at the number of negative responces

 

[sprinkles]

Just going to post an update, Grace landing tends to be very lenient with it's Bible studies often trying to make it so that they work within every bodies schedules, and those that can't make it do to work or school aren't punished in any sort of way. The same goes for Sunday service. The group also doesn't discriminate against practitioners of other faiths(or no faiths with their current situation) and allows anybody to take part in their services.

The organization started as group that wanted to provide house for young men who aged out of the foster-care system but has since expanded to taking on any young man who has found himself in need of housing(including those with violent criminal histories that other organizations won't take.)

I really wasn't expecting this thread to blow up like this, figured I'd only get a couple of responses. Also surprised at the number of negative responces

Well I've changed my opinion a little now that you've explained more (perhaps I should have asked)

Please expound on the nature of what goes on here. I'm genuinely interested. What are the services and studies like? What do you do? What is the nature of the complaints usually?

 

[Flavus Aquila]

We can be influenced to change our minds about something we are not initially or originally open to. If this were not true, then concepts such as influence, persuasion, argument or appeal would not exist. Or even the concept of choice would not truly exist because this would assume we have no ability or free will to make a different choice than ones we previously made about how we felt. It means we would be locked disbelief with no power to let go of previous beliefs. We are influenced by people's views and attitudes as people can affect our influence our views intentionally or unintentionally. Encouragement does not equal force.

When someone is in need, any conditions applied to assistance are not exactly fair.
Exploitation (a distinct, but related topic) is about the exploitation of a need in order to gain control, or benefit from a person.

I think the group in question is exploiting the need for accommodation for the sake of fulfilling their desire to proselytise.

 

[sprinkles]

When someone is in need, any conditions applied to assistance are not exactly fair.
Exploitation (a distinct, but related topic) is about the exploitation of a need in order to gain control, or benefit from a person.

I think the group in question is exploiting the need for accommodation for the sake of fulfilling their desire to proselytise.

Well I don't know.

I'm withholding my conclusion given Barnabas' recent post. The first post seemed quite robotic and not lenient or understanding at all to me, because no lenience or understanding was specified. So I apologize if I offended anyone.

When somebody says 'it is required' for example, I do not assume anything else. I will not assume that the speaker is personable or understanding because it is not implied, and they may in fact not be. 'It is required' means only that.

However this might not be so robotic after all, so I'm awaiting further input.

 

[Quiet]

[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION]

It's great to be open minded.

The issue is however that most people that go to this organization are complaining about it. It's clearly not making a good impression.

Maybe they are to blame for being closed minded and ignorant, yes. I have to wonder though how an organization can't be self aware enough to realize that putting people off regardless of how ignorant and resistant they are does not help themselves to be understood any better.

People can be petty, ignorant and judgmental, and this is the world. What good is it if these people continue to be the same afterwards?

Society may have something important to learn from this, but society is apparently not ready, and until organizations can take a more enlightened path where they realize that they must guide those who may not yet know any better and treating it as building trust and knowledge among those who have neither, it will remain not ready.

All this is true.

If people are complaining about it and not liking the rules- that is not a bad thing. It just is. They will form their own opinions and come to their own conclusions, and probably move foward in time. They would have recieved help when they needed it and are under no obligation to stay there when they dont have to. It seems that the organisation is helping them become more independant as it is supporting them to get through education/training and find/maintain work.

If the organisation wanted to attract more people, perhaps it should be more subtle and expansive. However, im sure that neither you or i really care whether the organisation succeeds in recruiting more followers or not. I would prefer for the organisation to be overt in its belief and approach, rather than using more subtle manipulation techniques

I know people that work in both christian and secular organisations such as this, as well as people that have used these services. Many people that stay in Christian facilities find it offensive that they are not allowed to drink alcohol on site, play violent videogames, watch violent movies, bring people back on site to have sex with etc. They would say that the organisation is impinging on their liberties and freedoms. Which it very well is. But i think in this case it is reasonable and justified. When we go stay at someone's place we have to respect their values. We dont have to stay there forever. There are also many secular organisations where this behaviour would not be permissable.

There is a shortage of secular organisations that offer a similar service. Many of the secular organisiation are also riddled with difficulties- poor funding, bad management, good intentions but poor implementation. In my experience, there are also many that see this service as just a job and put no care into their work. They dont really care about the person. Some people are openly cold and cruel. And some people truly do care and what to genuinely help.

It comes down to the particular people that work in an organisation. And all people, regardless of their beliefs, political affiliations etc, can be shitty. Or compassionate.

The bigger issue isnt necessarily whether or not this organisation is a good thing, and whether or not its rules are ideal. We need people to offer these services. In some ways, we rely on the people to offer services. We have to take what we can get and make the most of it. If we really care, we have to learn from this and try to offer something better, something we consider 'ideal'. Hopefully one day we will

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=4956]charlene[/MENTION]

Yes.

I've had a misunderstanding on the nature of some of the terms used, possibly. I cannot engage further until these are clarified, and have likely made premature statements.

However, I agree with being overt and I agree with rules that do not conflict with the organizations beliefs. Mandatory attendance to functions of religious nature is a totally separate issue from being overt or refraining from doing things of an offensive nature. Things can be overt and entirely transparent and still be voluntary.

Need more info though.

 

[sprinkles]

There is a shortage of secular organisations that offer a similar service. Many of the secular organisiation are also riddled with difficulties- poor funding, bad management, good intentions but poor implementation. In my experience, there are also many that see this service as just a job and put no care into their work. They dont really care about the person. Some people are openly cold and cruel. And some people truly do care and what to genuinely help.

It comes down to the particular people that work in an organisation. And all people, regardless of their beliefs, political affiliations etc, can be shitty. Or compassionate.

The bigger issue isnt necessarily whether or not this organisation is a good thing, and whether or not its rules are ideal. We need people to offer these services. In some ways, we rely on the people to offer services. We have to take what we can get and make the most of it. If we really care, we have to learn from this and try to offer something better, something we consider 'ideal'. Hopefully one day we will

Also to address these points specifically, I will say that we are mere humans stuck in Samsara like everyone else. It is a cycle that goes round and round.

This is why I do not and did not prescribe that something should be done or that this organization should be stopped. I didn't agree with it but there are a lot of things that I don't agree with that I won't make people stop doing, because in reality it cannot be helped due to the fundamental nature of mortal life and everything it entails.

The simple fact is that opinions were asked for, and mine was given honestly. These are my beliefs just as much as anyone else's - if one doesn't want them, then do not ask.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Well I don't know.

I'm withholding my conclusion given Barnabas' recent post. The first post seemed quite robotic and not lenient or understanding at all to me, because no lenience or understanding was specified. So I apologize if I offended anyone.

When somebody says 'it is required' for example, I do not assume anything else. I will not assume that the speaker is personable or understanding because it is not implied, and they may in fact not be. 'It is required' means only that.

However this might not be so robotic after all, so I'm awaiting further input.

Well, we are commenting on a scenario insofar as it has been described by Barnabas.
So far, the scenario he describes has some things that legitimately raise eyebrows.
I don't think it is gratuitous to try to work out what it is exactly that is slightly off in the scenario - most of us intuit first and figure it our later.

All of this discussion hopefully includes the understanding that a brief description of a scenario cannot capture all of its nuances; and so our comments are more about the scenario as described, than about the scenario as it is.

Also to address these points specifically, I will say that we are mere humans stuck in Samsara like everyone else. It is a cycle that goes round and round.

This is why I do not and did not prescribe that something should be done or that this organization should be stopped. I didn't agree with it but there are a lot of things that I don't agree with that I won't make people stop doing, because in reality it cannot be helped due to the fundamental nature of mortal life and everything it entails.

The simple fact is that opinions were asked for, and mine was given honestly. These are my beliefs just as much as anyone else's - if one doesn't want them, then do not ask.

Your comments seem fair enough - you are not introducing absurd claims/accusations/speculation.

I don't think you need to apologise, so much as come to terms that your feelings about this organisation are different from some; and similar to some peoples'.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=862]Flavus Aquila[/MENTION]

Yeah. The more I think about it though, the more I realize that we really don't have the picture at all.

For example, in some churches, Service and Bible study hardly constitutes a thing. They sing some songs and somebody reads something and that is it. Others get in your face and in your life and it is difficult to come away unaffected.

Remember the herd behavior and positive opinion bias in the other thread? That doesn't just disappear when you go off the internet, regardless of how few want to admit it.

 

[wonkavision]

It's as simple as this:

If someone is providing charity to you, and they have certain rules they expect you to follow, then either follow them or leave.

And secondly, the people who donate their time and money to these charities expect things to be done the way they were told it would be done, and if it isn't done that way, it's unfair to the donors.

This is really a no-brainer.

 

[sprinkles]

It's as simple as this:

If someone is providing charity to you, and they have certain rules they expect you to follow, then either follow them or leave.

And secondly, the people who donate their time and money to these charities expect things to be done the way they were told it would be done, and if it isn't done that way, it's unfair to the donors.

This is really a no-brainer.

It's not that simple because on the part of the organization, the rules should be legal and ethical, otherwise this furthers the idea that people in need are trash that you can do whatever you want with, something that is far too common.

I believe that beggars can, and should be choosers because this is the basic amount of respect that every human deserves.

This isn't saying that there shouldn't be rules of course, it's just saying that the rules should be chosen carefully and not be entirely arbitrary. Dealing with somebody who is poor and in need is a time to be impeccable in my opinion, and the only reason not to be so is that the giver is selfish and petty, and maybe they shouldn't bother in the first place.

 

[Kanamori]

IMHO, if people disagree with something out of instinct, which seems to me to be almost always the case, the best one can do is to plant the seed. The choicest bits along with paperwork or perhaps incentives, or encouragement (He has provided this opportunity to us to help those in need, e.g.). Well planted seeds will bear fruit when the conditions are right.

Obviously, if it is a private institution, what they do with their money is their own prerogative, but I feel that strictly enforcing it will cause resentment, which is probably the last thing you want when you're trying to convert somebody.

 

[Barnabas]

Well I've changed my opinion a little now that you've explained more (perhaps I should have asked)

Please expound on the nature of what goes on here. I'm genuinely interested. What are the services and studies like? What do you do? What is the nature of the complaints usually?

I haven't sat in on a lot of the Bible studies from Grace Landing(GL), that being said the they've ranged from topics like finances, moral lessons, and straight discussion of the biblical text. There aren't any rules as to what Church you have to attend or even what service you have to go to at GL, most of the guys go to First Christian Church of Kissimmee because they offer, 9am, 11am and 7pm services as well as a college age service at 6pm(And because the senior RA is the only guy with a car at the moment and they usually just tag along with him).

Most of the guys who have trouble with the rules at GL tend to have problems with authority in general(to be expected when you deal with young men between 18-22 who have all sorts of other emotional baggage accompanying them) and are less upset at the idea that they can't drink/stay out after curfew(without giving notice to an RA)/sleep till 5pm everyday without looking for a job and more upset that they feel like they're grown men and shouldn't have to be told what to do.

That being said the rules at GL generally have one of two functions, help the guys using the facility, and protect GL from the guys using the facility. So while the rules that are they're that require them to clean up and work are there to build better habits in them. Other rules are their to protect GL when one of the kids does something ridiculously dangerous to themselves or others so that GL can evict a resident with little effort(Gl only requires a weeks notice for eviction due to it's classification as halfway housing) or the resident decides that he's simply going to lay about the facility all day for the next several months as drain on resources.

If you've got other questions specific or non just ask and I'll try and answer. also going to put it out there again, I'm not a RA or staff member for GL, I'm simply good friends with the head RA who's been working there for the past couple of years.

---

With that out of the way I just want to add my own two cents to the conversation regarding the mandatory Bible studies and Church services. The part that's lacking here is a certain Christian perspective, which is to say that the purpose of these services and studies aren't to proselytize the guys there. But instead stem from a genuine theological belief that exposure to the Bible and the fellowship of believers helps the residents physically and spiritually. To the operators of GL, helping these guys become self-sufficient well adjusted individuals by making sure they're going to work is necessary as them going to church.

 

[sprinkles]

[MENTION=1848]Barnabas[/MENTION]

Ah ok.

Well if the moral lessons are generalized and some differences of opinion are allowed, it might not be so bad, and yeah it might be them just balking.

This could be acceptable depending on how it's done. For example when we study scriptures with our Mormon guests, they aren't all like "Well this is what you have to do, OR YOU ARE WRONG!"

Basically if it is telling them what the faith is but not necessarily telling them that this has to be their faith once they leave the place, then I don't have that big a problem with it.

 

[Barnabas]

@Barnabas

Ah ok.

Well if the moral lessons are generalized and some differences of opinion are allowed, it might not be so bad, and yeah it might be them just balking.

This could be acceptable depending on how it's done. For example when we study scriptures with our Mormon guests, they aren't all like "Well this is what you have to do, OR YOU ARE WRONG!"

Basically if it is telling them what the faith is but not necessarily telling them that this has to be their faith once they leave the place, then I don't have that big a problem with it.

You'd find it surprising how many Christians(non-internet variety) tend to shy away from the "You are wrong approach." It's just simply unfortunate that the variety that do tend to approve of this approach happen to usually be vary noisy.


Edit: to be honest though most people are capable of being noisy when the mood hits them, myself included

 

[sprinkles]

You'd find it surprising how many Christians(non-internet variety) tend to shy away from the "You are wrong approach." It's just simply unfortunate that the variety that do tend to approve of this approach happen to usually be vary noisy.


Edit: to be honest though most people are capable of being noisy when the mood hits them, myself included

Yeah I forget this some times due to my experience. I grew up in the "You are wrong" environment and in addition to that, people who didn't have that approach "weren't real Christians" either.

This did not come over well when it was combined with a mother who was fundamentalist and also bipolar.

 

[wonkavision]

Well, anyone who claims to be a Christian ought to be honest with his fellow man, and tell him that the Word of God is The Truth, and that everything that is OPPOSED to it is a LIE.

Compromisers may please men, but they are neither sent nor approved of by God.

So, if a charitable organization claims to be Christian, they had BETTER be preaching the Word of God, and not compromising, but preaching it dogmatically.

Contrary to popular opinion, a man's eternal salvation is more important than food, clothing, and shelter.

 

[Matt3737]

Well, anyone who claims to be a Christian ought to be honest with his fellow man, and tell him that the Word of God is The Truth, and that everything that is OPPOSED to it is a LIE.

Compromisers may please men, but they are neither sent nor approved of by God.

So, if a charitable organization claims to be Christian, they had BETTER be preaching the Word of God, and not compromising, but preaching it dogmatically.

Contrary to popular opinion, a man's eternal salvation is more important than food, clothing, and shelter.

Matthew 25:34-40

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

I'm sorry, but I don't see that mentioned here.