Why don't women make the first move? | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

Why don't women make the first move?

There's evidence of it even in this thread with many female posters saying they won't make the first move

Also people haven't really questioned the central generalisation of this thread because they all recognise it to exist (ie that there is a cultural expectation for the man to make the first move)

I bet if you asked all those females in this thread who have said they wouldn't make the first move, the majority would say that they believe that men and women should be equal within a relationship

I think there's a lot of women who also said they would approach a man first!

Also, is this a gender issue, or a self-esteem / lack of confidence issue? A lot of people are afraid to ask for fear of rejection- I don't believe this has to do with gender at all, as same-sex relationships still experience this.
 
I think there's a lot of women who also said they would approach a man first!

Also, is this a gender issue, or a self-esteem / lack of confidence issue? A lot of people are afraid to ask for fear of rejection- I don't believe this has to do with gender at all, as same-sex relationships still experience this.

It's a gender issue

Guys are expected as a general rule to make the first move. There may have been many signals from the woman prior to this but the guy is expected to be the one to get up off his butt and go over and break the ice

Now aside from whether or not that's a bad thing for some people or whether others might actually enjoy it or whatever, the point is that it exists as a social convention and i'm just trying to dissect that a bit

Concerning same sex relationships i think they still have a male and a female in the dynamic and no doubt the 'male' either shuffles over nervously or strides over confidently just as they do with men and makes the move
 
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As for casual dating, it does not matter but in a serious relationship, one with the potential for permanence and child birth, it is the woman who is more at risk. Even if there is no possibility of children the fact remains that male/female unions are based on reproduction. Pregnancy and child birth always results in loss of freedom for the woman and can result in death, her investment is physical and permanent whereas the man can walk away at any time and bear only emotional marks from bringing a child into the world. The woman rightly needs to have it demonstrated to her that her potential partner is willing to take a risk. That is why women mostly require to be asked. A formal declaration of intention by the man to the woman is a normal and beneficial form.

Those who think that an introverted man is disinclined to make such a declaration misunderstand the nature of introversion.

Any man who believes that the extroverted male has an advantage over the introverted man in winning the affections and loyalties of a woman is a fool.
 
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I would say that there are no new signals within attraction. I am happy for the women here who have initiated meeting their partners and can conclude they felt safe enough to do so (physically, emotionally etc)

That's fab!

The centre of equality is choice.

To assume women who aren't bothered are somehow dumber, sexually repressed or what have you is a bit juvenile imo. Anyone can screw. The quiet ones are always the more raunchy anyway.

It is always about the individuals. Pure sense dictates that caution should always be noted when approaching strangers. For many that is the crux of the matter. Also sex now being synonymous with dating (in fact from my observation it is a new relationship dynamic altogether) well this can also be an issue for some who don't do that sort of thing. The 'slut' issue is certainly not one sided and does exist. As long as the persons are well matched, not much harm is done but it is worthwhile to ensure that isn't the signal being given out.

As I said initially, attraction should be the motivator and there are no new signals whether a person wants a one night stand or to chat and share a bit of time. People are not as complex as they like to think!

Quiet guys are sexy too but no less prone to turning out to be psycho so I wouldn't advise opening up oneself especially for one. To be honest I don't think people even know what they are doing half the time and it's all pot luck.
 
Women don't make the first move because of reasons, evolutionary psychology reasons.

I think of it as a filter that separates the disposable, spineless men from the strong, smart, and achieving men.

Since the agricultural revolution some 10,000-15,000 years ago, the competition isn't so tooth-and-nail. Nowadays, women approach men, too. BUT if you were to see a timeline of events, the 50,000 years that we humans have been forming complex language is filled with men who approached women and passed their genes onward that way. So, it is logical to say that it literally isn't "natural," for women to approach men to pass their genes onward, because it has only been happening on a significant scale for a very, very short period of time in the timeline.

That is why we men make the first move.

As for all the other crazy stuff you folks are talking about, I enjoy reading your opinions but haven't solidified my own. :)
 
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"Quiet water may run deep but if it doesn't do the horizontal hokey-pokey it's just a very deep pond," evolutionarily speaking. :D
 
So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

What do people think about this issue?

I don't really view this as an "age of equality" not do I agree that women don't make the first move. I enjoyed reading many of the responses here and want to add in my opinion.

There have been a few times in my life that I have initiated a connection with a man I was interested in. The relationships were long lasting and we actually remain friends to this day.

I think how one defines "the first move" is up for interpretation as well. Often if I am interested in someone I may smile or maintain eye contact for an extra moment or two. Lingering. I actually consider this to be a first move.

I'm not sure I understand what "success" in making the first move means? Perhaps that a relationship unfolds?

As I reach midlife I know for sure "nice, shy, sensitive" men are equally as sexy as more assertive men...and I would have no issue "making the first move" with someone that captured my attention. :)
 
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Women don't make the first move because of reasons, evolutionary psychology reasons.

I think of it as a filter that separates the disposable, spineless men from the strong, smart, and achieving men.

Since the agricultural revolution some 10,000-15,000 years ago, the competition isn't so tooth-and-nail. Nowadays, women approach men, too. BUT if you were to see a timeline of events, the 50,000 years that we humans have been forming complex language is filled with men who approached women and passed their genes onward that way. So, it is logical to say that it literally isn't "natural," for women to approach men to pass their genes onward, because it has only been happening on a significant scale for a very, very short period of time in the timeline.

That is why we men make the first move.

As for all the other crazy stuff you folks are talking about, I enjoy reading your opinions but haven't solidified my own. :)

By approach do you mean knock them over the head with a club and drag them into a cave?
 
So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

It's not that women refuse to make the first move, it's more like they often don't have to. The strong, confident male that they would pick out of the crowd usually steps up to the plate before they do. The majority of women find being approached by a confident man very appealing. On the flip-side, a lot of men do not like being approached by a woman. While they maybe flattered, in the long run, the majority of men prefer the chase and most women know this to be true.

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

I'm not for 'shoulding' anyone to do anything. For instance, I don't think that guys should be obligated to approach women. but at the same time, I acknowledge that the reality of the situation is that a man who chooses to be approached rather than approach won't be as successful as a man who takes the initiative. It has nothing to do with 'equality.' It has to do with what is generally attractive to women versus what is generally attractive to men.

Unlike shy women, shy guys and wallflowers rarely get attention from the type of woman who would approach a man because those women are typically looking for a partner who would challenge them. Men who seem shy or disinterested aren't going to get approached if they are not exuding strength or the confidence factor that most women look for.

Women, on the other hand, frequently get approached because a woman is more often evaluated based on her physical appeal and femininity. There is nothing she really needs to 'do' to attract a mate because being a lady (whether she is shy or assertive) is a rather universal appeal.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but I hope most will realize that I'm speaking generally here.

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

Cultural norms aren't just willy nilly plucked out of the air. Sometimes they have evolutionary roots.

A man's attractiveness is frequently based on his abilities to assert himself as a protector. If he has trouble approaching a woman, how in the heck is he going to be able to protect her? Women prefer men who appear competent and confident above all else. This is why its not so unusual to sometimes spot a gorgeous gal with a troll. In these situations, the unfortunate looking gentleman likely demonstrated an aptitude and confidence that initially attracted her to him over the typical beefhead.

The reverse, however, is rare as women are evaluated based on their looks and what attracts that particular man to her. Whether she's shy, she's confident, whether she is intelligent and well-rounded doesn't really matter. She's going to appeal to a man out there somewhere simply by the virtue of being of a woman.

Is this sort of thing fair? Nope. But then, few things in love and life are. For example, no amount of 'ra ra ra feminism' and 'fat acceptance' ads are going to make larger women more attractive to the men who naturally prefer their slimmer, fitter counterparts. Much the same way, no amount of 'equality' is going to give the shy guys and wallflowers the edge when women are more naturally drawn to the more assertive male.
 
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By approach do you mean knock them over the head with a club and drag them into a cave?

Heh! Yeah I think that was the most common method in those days. :)
 
As I reach midlife I know for sure "nice, shy, sensitive" men are equally as sexy as more assertive men...and I would have no issue "making the first move" with someone that captured my attention. :)

Oh! I absolutely believe a person can be shy, sensitive, nice AND assertive(I wrote as if this combination may not exist)! I find myself very attracted to this combination...yum.

We are such a fascinating species...
 
I think what [MENTION=1360]TheDaringHatTrick[/MENTION] says is absolutely spot on.

I think we can spend all day preaching equality, but you can't force yourself to want to fuck someone just as you can't force someone to want to fuck you, and that's basically what it comes down to. There has to be some incentive or appeal that goes beyond having a comfortable personality. For a lot of people who are in a happy relationship right now (or even unhappy ones), I am willing to bet that there was something about that person that ignited a spark in them and it had nothing to do with who approached who first.

Who you are tends to leak out into any social atmosphere and people will pick up on it. If there's not something about you that can be picked up on by the opposite sex, why are they going to approach you at all? That goes for both genders.
 
I don't really view this as an "age of equality" not do I agree that women don't make the first move. I enjoyed reading many of the responses here and want to add in my opinion.

There have been a few times in my life that I have initiated a connection with a man I was interested in. The relationships were long lasting and we actually remain friends to this day.

I think how one defines "the first move" is up for interpretation as well. Often if I am interested in someone I may smile or maintain eye contact for an extra moment or two. Lingering. I actually consider this to be a first move.

I'm not sure I understand what "success" in making the first move means? Perhaps that a relationship unfolds?

As I reach midlife I know for sure "nice, shy, sensitive" men are equally as sexy as more assertive men...and I would have no issue "making the first move" with someone that captured my attention. :)

I'm not meaning giving cues to mean making the first move

Cues can be a difficult thing for people to read sometimes

No doubt there are many men who have made a move on a woman only for her to say that she smiles because she is friendly and she smiles at everyone and that she wasn't smiling at him to mean anything special

By making the first move i mean getting up and going over and breaking the ice.

You may have made eyes at a guy but who made the first move?
 
It's not that women refuse to make the first move, it's more like they often don't have to. The strong, confident male that they would pick out of the crowd usually steps up to the plate before they do. The majority of women find being approached by a confident man very appealing. On the flip-side, a lot of men do not like being approached by a woman. While they maybe flattered, in the long run, the majority of men prefer the chase and most women know this to be true.



I'm not for 'shoulding' anyone to do anything. For instance, I don't think that guys should be obligated to approach women. but at the same time, I acknowledge that the reality of the situation is that a man who chooses to be approached rather than approach won't be as successful as a man who takes the initiative. It has nothing to do with 'equality.' It has to do with what is generally attractive to women versus what is generally attractive to men.

Unlike shy women, shy guys and wallflowers rarely get attention from the type of woman who would approach a man because those women are typically looking for a partner who would challenge them. Men who seem shy or disinterested aren't going to get approached if they are not exuding strength or the confidence factor that most women look for.

Women, on the other hand, frequently get approached because a woman is more often evaluated based on her physical appeal and femininity. There is nothing she really needs to 'do' to attract a mate because being a lady (whether she is shy or assertive) is a rather universal appeal.

Of course, there are exceptions to every rule, but I hope most will realize that I'm speaking generally here.



Cultural norms aren't just willy nilly plucked out of the air. Sometimes they have evolutionary roots.

A man's attractiveness is frequently based on his abilities to assert himself as a protector. If he has trouble approaching a woman, how in the heck is he going to be able to protect her? Women prefer men who appear competent and confident above all else. This is why its not so unusual to sometimes spot a gorgeous gal with a troll. In these situations, the unfortunate looking gentleman likely demonstrated an aptitude and confidence that initially attracted her to him over the typical beefhead.

The reverse, however, is rare as women are evaluated based on their looks and what attracts that particular man to her. Whether she's shy, she's confident, whether she is intelligent and well-rounded doesn't really matter. She's going to appeal to a man out there somewhere simply by the virtue of being of a woman.

Is this sort of thing fair? Nope. But then, few things in love and life are. For example, no amount of 'ra ra ra feminism' and 'fat acceptance' ads are going to make larger women more attractive to the men who naturally prefer their slimmer, fitter counterparts. Much the same way, no amount of 'equality' is going to give the shy guys and wallflowers the edge when women are more naturally drawn to the more assertive male.

I agree with you

I agree that things aren't equal and i agree that things aren't fair

I think though that by women waveing the 'equality' banner whilst at the same time saying they don't really want equality in all things shows that women have their hands on the equality tap and that they turn it on and off when it suits them

This is a hard reality that will deeply offend those that haven't confronted this truth

I'll throw out another hard reality whilst i'm at it...

Women not only control the equality tap they also control the sex tap!

Now before people get all defencive about their rights i am not saying that women shouldn't control the sex tap to their own bodies what i am saying is that they shouldn't control the sex tap of mens bodies

Sex has become a currency and it is used by women as a form of social control

Men will evolve counter strategies and i believe that they are currently doing this through technology for example porn which will evolve into full blown virtual reality simulations and sex-bots

The reality of our society i think is far removed from how many feminists would have us believe; i believe that women are currently controlling the equality tap and the sex tap not just to themselves but to men as well

I anticipate a counter-move from men who will need to find new outlets for what is basically a natural appetite

It's ugly to talk in such terms and in a healthy, flowing and more organic and relaxed society there would be no need to speak in such terms but i don't think our society is healthy or honest
 
I'll throw out another hard reality whilst i'm at it...

Women not only control the equality tap they also control the sex tap!



Sex has become a currency and it is used by women as a form of social control



The reality of our society i think is far removed from how many feminists would have us believe; i believe that women are currently controlling the equality tap and the sex tap not just to themselves but to men as well

Is this happening to "a friend" of yours?
 
So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?

Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?

If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?

What do people think about this issue?

I think it is basic evolution. Men are hunters and women are gatherers. This role will exist in everyone's subconscious regardless of what age or eon we live in and it is the driving force behind reproducing the strongest possible offspring. I don't think modern feminism can top that even with the nice idea of the sexes being equal 50/50. I think men approaching or "hunting" for their mate is a very intrinsic to their manhood and i think women respond subconsciously by "assessing" the viability of this mate. Hence the phenomena of being friend zoned exists. The guy could be a nice guy but if they lack the balls to back up their manhood women can smell this and will put this guy in the back burner even if the mate has all that she is seeking. Many ancient tribes and civilizations had ceremonies to demonstrate manhood for young males when they come of age. They were often forbidden to mate with the young women in the tribe until they proved their manhood to an extent. I don't think this "testing" ritual has changed; instead in the modern times the way a man proves himself is through having a good income/job and have ability to support and care for their family/offspring. The "testing" of the manhood or proving their reliability still exists just under different condition.

The way a relationship starts also has very strong impact on the nature of the relationship. There is longevity and commitment when the relationship was started off in chivalrous manner. Chivalry is not dead in my opinion and there are many men that still see the value in the practice of wooing their beloved. The romance, affection and spontaneity that comes with wooing is beautiful and creates lasting memories that touch the soul compared to fucking on the first date or hooking up with your crush under iffy circumstances. Everything will depend on what the person values of course and how much effort they are willing to put forth.

Women test men all the time and i think the main reason women need to be asked by a male is to gage how much effort a man puts forth to attain what he desires. Some men resent this and they feel that women should ask first as well. But the bottom line is power dynamics, social dynamics and effort are all being measured during those first encounters. Women will always need their men to be men and not bitches or boys. And not to mention the sexual attraction that exists and this will also be subjective.

I used to believe in the 50/50 modern views of women asking the men, etc. Through experience and experiences from my girlfriends concludes that if a man wants or needs you then he will do what he needs to do to be with you. The man grows from this experience and if he is successful he will attain that which belongs to him. Relationships without effort is meaningless and hurtful.

I think there are special instances where it is appropriate for a woman to initiate. In most circumstances like friendships and close acquaintances with mutual interest can be great opportunity. But i am not into women picking up men in random public places. But then again there are probably tons of women who would feel the opposite. I am an old fashioned gal.
 
I think it is basic evolution. Men are hunters and women are gatherers. This role will exist in everyone's subconscious regardless of what age or eon we live in and it is the driving force behind reproducing the strongest possible offspring. I don't think modern feminism can top that even with the nice idea of the sexes being equal 50/50. I think men approaching or "hunting" for their mate is a very intrinsic to their manhood and i think women respond subconsciously by "assessing" the viability of this mate. Hence the phenomena of being friend zoned exists. The guy could be a nice guy but if they lack the balls to back up their manhood women can smell this and will put this guy in the back burner even if the mate has all that she is seeking. Many ancient tribes and civilizations had ceremonies to demonstrate manhood for young males when they come of age. They were often forbidden to mate with the young women in the tribe until they proved their manhood to an extent. I don't think this "testing" ritual has changed; instead in the modern times the way a man proves himself is through having a good income/job and have ability to support and care for their family/offspring. The "testing" of the manhood or proving their reliability still exists just under different condition.

The way a relationship starts also has very strong impact on the nature of the relationship. There is longevity and commitment when the relationship was started off in chivalrous manner. Chivalry is not dead in my opinion and there are many men that still see the value in the practice of wooing their beloved. The romance, affection and spontaneity that comes with wooing is beautiful and creates lasting memories that touch the soul compared to fucking on the first date or hooking up with your crush under iffy circumstances. Everything will depend on what the person values of course and how much effort they are willing to put forth.

Women test men all the time and i think the main reason women need to be asked by a male is to gage how much effort a man puts forth to attain what he desires. Some men resent this and they feel that women should ask first as well. But the bottom line is power dynamics, social dynamics and effort are all being measured during those first encounters. Women will always need their men to be men and not bitches or boys. And not to mention the sexual attraction that exists and this will also be subjective.

I used to believe in the 50/50 modern views of women asking the men, etc. Through experience and experiences from my girlfriends concludes that if a man wants or needs you then he will do what he needs to do to be with you. The man grows from this experience and if he is successful he will attain that which belongs to him. Relationships without effort is meaningless and hurtful.

I think there are special instances where it is appropriate for a woman to initiate. In most circumstances like friendships and close acquaintances with mutual interest can be great opportunity. But i am not into women picking up men in random public places. But then again there are probably tons of women who would feel the opposite. I am an old fashioned gal.

Yeah i agree with you...i agree with a lot of what people have been saying in this thread

And i hope that this thread will be a stake in the heart to this feminist idea that men and women are exactly the same and that 'equality' is even possible in a total sense

The male experience is very different from the female experience

So that then has to be the foundation to build off when moving forward from here in discussions about 'equality' and how society should be constructed

Things are not always as the 'womens studies' textbooks would have us believe

I think when we are discussing these sorts of matters there should be some appreciation from the men about the challenges that are unique to women and there should be some appreciation from women for the challenges that are unique to men because we aren't exactly the same and each gender has its own struggles