Why don't women make the first move?

[say what]

......really?

I've asked guys out before. I haven't done it in a way that makes them think they want it, nor was I the aggressor in the relationship. I think these are over generalization based on either (a) an individual's experiences and (b) a select picture of the internet.

Dating has changed drastically because of shifts in gender roles, but also how we communicate- social media, dating sites, etc. has changed getting to know someone, understanding their expectations of dating, and how you communicate your interest.

Then there's the ego aspect of dating, and not wanting to be rejected. I think it's incorrect to assume that a female, who puts hints out there to a man, is trying to convince them that they want to date them. I think this is a safe tactic to see if someone is interested in getting to know you.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Because women do the attracting. It's not fair to force both roles on them.

I think its completely fair considering that if you end up in any type of relationship the guy is going to be confronted daily with double standards.

 

[muir]

Lol as someone who has asked out many guys in the past, and who has both befriended many "nice" quiet guys and been in relationships with many quiet guys due to the same logic that you had @muir (that quiet guys will be the nice ones contrary to their loud bellowing counterparts), I can conclude that there being a correlation between shy and nice is debatable... Plenty of quiet guys out there are simply insecure jerks, or ultimately just mean-to-average people at most who only seem less flawed because their silence hides their negative points more effectively.


From now on I am not going to be the one initiating anymore, because I want someone who is at least on par with my level of confidence in themselves and social competence. I don't have a problem with letting someone know I like them because I'd rather say it than leave an unfulfilled possibility hanging in the past. I don't care about gender roles or slut shaming or labels, and people who buy into that only have themselves to blame for missed opportunities. But I'm going to use this gendered expectation to weed out the men who are too timid or too unwilling or who don't like me enough to jump through this simple hoop. I'm already a very friendly and open person and I obviously try to get really friendly with those I like, so if they are too thickheaded and terrible enough at communication and taking hints to see that I like them, and then too afraid of making themselves vulnerable to care to be responsive to me IN SPITE OF the clear gender role laid out for them, then I don't want that in a relationship.

I can totally understand what you are saying here...that some 'quiet' guys are actually just going to be very rough around the edges and that's why they are reserved

But equally i think you might find that many of the 'confident' guys are jerks

lol

But i think by you taking pro-active control over who you approach you are at least able to find what works for you

I do think that in a post marxist feminist world you will encounter many males who are going through an identity crisis. if you think about what is being asked of them for example by popular culture it appears that they are beig asked to walk a very fine line a lot of the time...confusing times i'd say for both men and women where role models aren't always clear (or healthy)

I'm not familiar with online dating or tinder and all that stuff but i have listened to what others say about it. Apparently on dating sites many of the women place a long list of things that a guy must have before he can even consider getting in touch with her

Consumerism works by keeping people constantly insecure beause if they felt good about their situation then they wouldn't feel the need to buy more stuff or upgrade what they already have

A lot is now being asked of partners as they are also now being treated as status items. Both sexes do this, i'm not pointing the finger for example rich men have long been said to have 'trophy women' on their arm

I just think none of it is making people happy (status anxiety is rife)

It appears to me that one of the prime FEARS that is driving a lot of behaviour relating to coupling is that of keeping up appearances; i'd say that female neuroticism is a big factor these days...FEAR of what others think of us and fear is not really a good foundation for relationships imo

I think women taking the initiative more would be a good way to calm female neuroticism because then they are taking responsibility for their own decisions

 

[Gaze]

I think the asker is definately at a disadvantage in that they are essentially taking a risk

So what i want to know is if we want to live in an equal society why should men always have to be the ones taking the risk? (thats a generalisation of course sometimes women do make the first move...but its a generalisation that we are all aware of)

Shouldn't women take up some of the risk burden?

Sounds like you're looking for a single answer. In my response, I mentioned that it's not as simple as taking a risk. The problem is how we view the person who is asking or supposedly taking the risk. If we quit seeing and treating people as being in a weaker position because they are the askee, then maybe the possibility exists for something more equal. Both people need to feel they are on equal ground in order to feel comfortable asking. If one feels as if asking is about who has the more power or advantage, then yeah, why would someone want to take that risk? I can count on less than one hand how many people took the time to ask me out. The last person I dated initiated, but since then I've also initiated interest because I was comfortable with them. Second of all, it's a little naïve to think a man asking the same as a woman asking. In most cases, where someone was attempting to initiate, they were not initiating for particularly pure reasons, so it wasn't any sort of flattering experience. Or when they initiated for nicer reasons, they played a game where they seemed they were interested, put out a lot of energy showing interest, and as long as you're playing it cool, they're interested but when you start return the interest and show you're open, they ditch. This kind of nonsense is why people don't want to attempt the risk. They're too many people with the wrong approach or frame of mind. Thirdly, if someone approaches me respectfully, I'm going to be nice. But sometimes when you approach someone, they can a real you know what, thinking they're all that because someone is approaching them. They have this attitude of "if you're going to approach me, then you have to impress me." It's ridiculous. If I like someone, it's because I see something I appreciate and respect, so yeah, I would show interest but if they're simply going to use that to be dick, then no, I'm not going to put myself out there for that.

 

[muir]

Sounds like you're looking for a single answer. In my response, I mentioned that it's not as simple as taking a risk. The problem is how we view the person who is asking or supposedly taking the risk. If we quit seeing and treating people as being in a weaker position because they are the askee, then maybe the possibility exists for something more equal. Both people need to feel they are on equal ground in order to feel comfortable asking. If one feels as if asking is about who has the more power or advantage, then yeah, why would someone want to take that risk? I can count on less than one hand how many people took the time to ask me out. The last person I dated initiated, but since then I've also initiated interest because I was comfortable with them. Second of all, it's a little naïve to think a man asking the same as a woman asking. In most cases, where someone was attempting to initiate, they were not initiating for particularly pure reasons, so it wasn't any sort of flattering experience. Or when they initiated for nicer reasons, they played a game where they seemed they were interested, put out a lot of energy showing interest, and as long as you're playing it cool, they're interested but when you start return the interest and show you're open, they ditch. This kind of nonsense is why people don't want to attempt the risk. They're too many people with the wrong approach or frame of mind. Thirdly, if someone approaches me respectfully, I'm going to be nice. But sometimes when you approach someone, they can a real you know what, thinking they're all that because someone is approaching them. They have this attitude of "if you're going to approach me, then you have to impress me." It's ridiculous. If I like someone, it's because I see something I appreciate and respect, so yeah, I would show interest but if they're simply going to use that to be dick, then no, I'm not going to put myself out there for that.

I agree about how people treat others

Do you think many men have been treated badly by women having summoned up the courage to ask?

Please don't read anything into these questions, i carry no hurt regarding these matters i'm just playing devils advocate because i think this is an interesting aspect of male/female interaction and also one that isn't much discussed!

 

[muir]

......really?

I've asked guys out before. I haven't done it in a way that makes them think they want it, nor was I the aggressor in the relationship. I think these are over generalization based on either (a) an individual's experiences and (b) a select picture of the internet.

Dating has changed drastically because of shifts in gender roles, but also how we communicate- social media, dating sites, etc. has changed getting to know someone, understanding their expectations of dating, and how you communicate your interest.

Then there's the ego aspect of dating, and not wanting to be rejected. I think it's incorrect to assume that a female, who puts hints out there to a man, is trying to convince them that they want to date them. I think this is a safe tactic to see if someone is interested in getting to know you.

Ok a safe tactic sure

But someone has to take a leap

So is there a cultural expectation on men to do that?

If so is that a fair burden to place on men in the age of equality?

Is it time society re-examined this issue and perhaps considered if things relating to this aspect of human intereaction are indeed fair?

Also should it be shameful for a woman to enjoy physical connection?

Is it impossible for women to enjoy physical connection without extra emotional dimensions? Is it wrong for a woman to enjoy that and should social pressures be put on her for example 'slut shaming'?

What are womenkind/the sisterhood losing by being free with their love? Equally could anything be gained by women being free with their love?

 

[barbad0s]

But equally i think you might find that many of the 'confident' guys are jerks

I know... that's what I mean. There's not a strong correlation either way in either direction, in my opinion. But I'd rather be with someone who is capable of fulfilling basic every day societal demands and risk finding out that they might be a jerk later, than be with someone who won't do that and also risk finding out if they're a jerk later anyway...
For me it's about whether or not the person will be able to relate to me emotionally and understand where I'm coming from, and also to be instrumental in me achieving my own goals instead of dragging me down.

There are many different types of people in this world. Perhaps after a lot of soul searching, the rich men and the trophy wives really are what those people want. Maybe those rich men and trophy wives also fulfill other less superficial roles in the lives of their SOs.

I think the basis of what you are feeling about this topic makes sense. You are asking some good questions. People in general just need to be keeping their eyes open and taking initiative to get what they want rather than just swallowing the gender expectations and limited information in front of them and thinking that's the entire universe, like blind mole rats swallowing their own feces in the dark underground, thinking there's no world beyond that. Ironically the answer is the same answer to the question you pose in this thread: people are simply too afraid. Women and men fail once and never want to try again, and then instead of realizing it's a universe of obstacles they are fabricating in their own minds they blame the outside world and circumstances. Muir I hope that you starting this thread is not a way for you to escape asking the women you want to out.

 

[Switchgirl]

I can totally understand what you are saying here...that some 'quiet' guys are actually just going to be very rough around the edges and that's why they are reserved

But equally i think you might find that many of the 'confident' guys are jerks

lol

But i think by you taking pro-active control over who you approach you are at least able to find what works for you

So you are bound to find both good and bad in both situations, which is to be expected because reality isn't so linear like that.

I understand the point you're getting at, [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]. At least in my experience, the guys who were very forward usually did end up to be the jerks.. Being more specific, the guys who would be really upfront and say "Hey beautiful, let's go on a date sometime." Those usually didn't last that long.. And they were looking for one thing and one thing only.. Or they got bored quickly.

As [MENTION=12211]Yatagarasu[/MENTION] mentioned before, the best route to go is to be initially friends.. That time length is totally dependent on each situation but that's probably the most best way to get things started (yes there are exceptions to this as well).

Its admirable when a guy initates friendship as well and women should be more open in doing so. You don't have to necessarily jump the gun

Learning and gaining experience is never a waste because in the end you learn more about yourself and what you'd like out of a partner.

 

[muir]

I know... that's what I mean. There's not a strong correlation either way in either direction, in my opinion. But I'd rather be with someone who is capable of fulfilling basic every day societal demands and risk finding out that they might be a jerk later, than be with someone who won't do that and also risk finding out if they're a jerk later anyway...
For me it's about whether or not the person will be able to relate to me emotionally and understand where I'm coming from, and also to be instrumental in me achieving my own goals instead of dragging me down.

There are many different types of people in this world. Perhaps after a lot of soul searching, the rich men and the trophy wives really are what those people want. Maybe those rich men and trophy wives also fulfill other less superficial roles in the lives of their SOs.

I think the basis of what you are feeling about this topic makes sense. You are asking some good questions. People in general just need to be keeping their eyes open and taking initiative to get what they want rather than just swallowing the gender expectations and limited information in front of them and thinking that's the entire universe, like blind mole rats swallowing their own feces in the dark underground, thinking there's no world beyond that. Ironically the answer is the same answer to the question you pose in this thread: people are simply too afraid. Women and men fail once and never want to try again, and then instead of realizing it's a universe of obstacles they are fabricating in their own minds they blame the outside world and circumstances. Muir I hope that you starting this thread is not a way for you to escape asking the women you want to out.

Moles swallow their own faeces?

 

[muir]

So you are bound to find both good and bad in both situations, which is to be expected because reality isn't so linear like that.

I understand the point you're getting at, @muir . At least in my experience, the guys who were very forward usually did end up to be the jerks.. Being more specific, the guys who would be really upfront and say "Hey beautiful, let's go on a date sometime." Those usually didn't last that long.. And they were looking for one thing and one thing only.. Or they got bored quickly.

As @Yatagarasu mentioned before, the best route to go is to be initially friends.. That time length is totally dependent on each situation but that's probably the most best way to get things started (yes there are exceptions to this as well).

Its admirable when a guy initates friendship as well and women should be more open in doing so. You don't have to necessarily jump the gun

Learning and gaining experience is never a waste because in the end you learn more about yourself and what you'd like out of a partner.

yeah i agree....gettting to know each other and connecting over time is ideal

I'm highly skeptical of the hollywood idea of 'love at first sight'...that sounds more like 'lust at first sight to me!'

 

[say what]

Ok a safe tactic sure

But someone has to take a leap

So is there a cultural expectation on men to do that?

If so is that a fair burden to place on men in the age of equality?

Is it time society re-examined this issue and perhaps considered if things relating to this aspect of human intereaction are indeed fair?

Also should it be shameful for a woman to enjoy physical connection?

Is it impossible for women to enjoy physical connection without extra emotional dimensions? Is it wrong for a woman to enjoy that and should social pressures be put on her for example 'slut shaming'?

What are womenkind/the sisterhood losing by being free with their love? Equally could anything be gained by women being free with their love?

You're integrating generational and cultural ideologies into a giant mixing pot, and expecting them to fit into one value system- equality.

Many people don't see men and women equal- this could be a personal perspective, or a perspective that is based on their culture, religion, and/or generation.

Dating between generations is different- thus you can't have the same expectations.

Your question really only applies to those who believe in the equality of sexes - for those, there is no burden for men or women, if you're interested, ask.

For some, women asking men is unattractive. For other, men asking women is the only way it should be.

 

[muir]

You're integrating generational and cultural ideologies into a giant mixing pot, and expecting them to fit into one value system- equality.

Many people don't see men and women equal- this could be a personal perspective, or a perspective that is based on their culture, religion, and/or generation.

Dating between generations is different- thus you can't have the same expectations.

Your question really only applies to those who believe in the equality of sexes - for those, there is no burden for men or women, if you're interested, ask.

For some, women asking men is unattractive. For other, men asking women is the only way it should be.

I just feel there is a cultural expectation..nay pressure...on men to be the ones to step up

I'm curious in a changing socio-cultural landscape if that behavioural pattern is changing and what people think about that

Personally i have a very libertarian (not right wing libertarian) view regarding all matters which is to say i believe people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others

I think men or women should be free to do what they want....ask, don't ask, take charge, don't take charge, be straight, be gay, take drugs, don't take drugs, be kinky, don't be kinky etc...i really don't care what individuals do as long as they are doing what they want to do and not coercing others into doing things they don't want to do or into not doing things that they want to do

So i'm one of the least judgmental people you'll meet regarding all these types of things but i am also a keen observor of human behaviour and i notice that there is an expectation on the man to be the person to make the move

I'm interested in why that is and if it is mutable

 

[Eventhorizon]

Women asking men out makes it that much easier and I am all for promoting and cultivating the idea across the globe. Soon I wont have to do much of anything at all as a man. Just sit back and watch the xgames as my life is meticulously taken care of for me. Life will be good. Good indeed.
Make it so. I have some relaxing to do.

 

[muir]

Women asking men out makes it that much easier and I am all for promoting and cultivating the idea across the globe. Soon I wont have to do much of anything at all as a man. Just sit back and watch the xgames as my life is meticulously taken care of for me. Life will be good. Good indeed.
Make it so. I have some relaxing to do.

The robot hoover will hoover the floor, your scotch on the rocks dispenser will be within reach of your lazy-boy and you're shopping will be delivered to your door

You might have to cook dinner for the wife though for when she comes back from work

 

[SlowUpTake]

Having been around very attractive men on numerous occasions I can state unequivocally that at least 7 out of 100 (that would be "many") women have no problem asking men out as long as they feel properly motivated.

 

[say what]

I just feel there is a cultural expectation..nay pressure...on men to be the ones to step up

I'm curious in a changing socio-cultural landscape if that behavioural pattern is changing and what people think about that

Personally i have a very libertarian (not right wing libertarian) view regarding all matters which is to say i believe people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they are not hurting others

I think men or women should be free to do what they want....ask, don't ask, take charge, don't take charge, be straight, be gay, take drugs, don't take drugs, be kinky, don't be kinky etc...i really don't care what individuals do as long as they are doing what they want to do and not coercing others into doing things they don't want to do or into not doing things that they want to do

So i'm one of the least judgmental people you'll meet regarding all these types of things but i am also a keen observor of human behaviour and i notice that there is an expectation on the man to be the person to make the move

I'm interested in why that is and if it is mutable

I guess my point is that you're asking a rhetorical question that is based in a very liberal standpoint.

From your perspective (and mine) it doesn't matter. But for individuals out there who might believe that men and women aren't equal, and who don't hold that POV, they would have a different opinion.

It's not that I think you're judging people, I just believe that for those who believe men should be the one's asking, they may hold the belief that men and women are not equal. At [MENTION=1669]pics[/MENTION] did a great job of highlighting the power dynamic of a relationship. For those who believe that each person maintains an equal semblance of power in the relationship, it doesn't matter who is the initiator or not.

 

[muir]

Having been around very attractive men on numerous occasions I can state unequivocally that at least 7 out of 100 (that would be "many") women have no problem asking men out as long as they feel properly motivated.

So social gathering places are full of women asking attractive guys out?

 

[muir]

I guess my point is that you're asking a rhetorical question that is based in a very liberal standpoint.

From your perspective (and mine) it doesn't matter. But for individuals out there who might believe that men and women aren't equal, and who don't hold that POV, they would have a different opinion.

It's not that I think you're judging people, I just believe that for those who believe men should be the one's asking, they may hold the belief that men and women are not equal. At @pics did a great job of highlighting the power dynamic of a relationship. For those who believe that each person maintains an equal semblance of power in the relationship, it doesn't matter who is the initiator or not.

What i'm suggesting is that you could survey lots of women who will tell you that they believe men and women should be equal in a relationship yet many of those women will not make the first move....there's a disconnection there between what they say and what they do

 

[say what]

What i'm suggesting is that you could survey lots of women who will tell you that they believe men and women should be equal in a relationship yet many of those women will not make the first move....there's a disconnection there between what they say and what they do

i guess this is where we disagree- I don't think this is the case.

 

[muir]

i guess this is where we disagree- I don't think this is the case.

There's evidence of it even in this thread with many female posters saying they won't make the first move

Also people haven't really questioned the central generalisation of this thread because they all recognise it to exist (ie that there is a cultural expectation for the man to make the first move)

I bet if you asked all those females in this thread who have said they wouldn't make the first move, the majority would say that they believe that men and women should be equal within a relationship