So in an age of equality why don't women make the first move?
Shouldn't women approach guys as much as guys approach women?
If guys always make the first move and if many guys are too shy or sensitive to make the first move then is that why 'nice guys always come last' because under such a cultural norm the more assertive and aggressive males would be the ones approaching women and therefore having the most success?
I think society has hammered gender roles into our heads.. Also, there seems to be a lot of slut shaming still going on.
Girls are afraid of looking too "easy" and we've been told in order to be desired we must play hard to get. Which is why a lot of women are apprehensive to approach a guy they are interested in, even though they would like to make the first move.
I disagree that woman like to make the first move.
When they do like it, its because they don't have another option.
Also, some women like it because the guy is shy, and they find it "cute"...but that's not something real. I mean, the nature of cuteness is not exactly serious. Girls do it for fun, to play their fantasies.
And by the way, women find almost the most unusual things to be "cute".
I think society has hammered gender roles into our heads.. Also, there seems to be a lot of slut shaming still going on.
Girls are afraid of looking too "easy" and we've been told in order to be desired we must play hard to get. Which is why a lot of women are apprehensive to approach a guy they are interested in, even though they would like to make the first move.
Ok i can totally understand what you're saying, but slut shaming is coming from the women...so why are they doing that?
Also what is the problem with looking 'easy'; if a person is on the market, they're on the market! (so to speak!)
When i was a student there were often nightclub nights called 'traffic light' nights where people would wear a green sticker if they were single, an amber if single but not overly fussed about looking for someone and a red light for in a relationship!
There's a simplicity about that which is kind of refreshing lol
But also do you see my point that there might be lots of nice guys out there who are a bit reserved and might be a good find for many women but they won't get the opportunity if the woman doesn't make the move because the guy is reserved and won't push himself forward
If I ever became single again and found women had to do the approaching, I would accept being single.
Imo, it is better when neither make the first move and simply follow attraction without big statements. Anything to facilitate that sort of process is good in my mind. Actual chat up lines make me nauseous. I wouldn't do that even if offered good money.
.. but no, I wouldn't approach a man first - I know it is from back in the day social conditioning. Rightly or wrongly, I did heavily discourage such an approach in my daughters which went as far as even an order of where to meet and how to dress during the getting to know each other phase! Old fashioned ways are the best in my view.
I think that there are a lot of very deep psychological and biological issues that come into play when it comes to initiating. This is my opinion and observation, so you can take it as such. It may be offensive to people, but... I don't care.
I think women do not approach men as much because they don't want to be rejected. I think many women believe that a man should love them no matter what and that their personality should win out above all else. I think many women are taught that their body is a commodity that is high in demand and that sex is a currency that can be used to reward and to punish. I think many women are not in tune with their own sexual nature and as a result of social conditioning and expectations women are taught to keep their legs shut and also that sex is so important to men that it trumps just about everything else. As a result, because many women are taught to believe that sex is the only thing they can bring to the table for a man, that if that gets rejected then they are being rejected despite having the one currency/commodity that apparently men are supposed to want the most out of anything else in the world.
I know for myself in my more self-conscious days I did not want to initiate because I did not think my body was desirable. I thought that a man would not want me because I was not physically attractive and to cold approach someone when the first impression you get of a person is physical, I did not want to face being rejected. They could not reject my personality because even within a first meeting (or even a few meetings) my personality could not be gauged. Either they were physically attracted to me enough that they wanted to get to know my personality, or they were turned off by my appearance and that stage would never be reached.
I believe underneath many women who have self-confidence issues or who have a very skewed perspective of what's important to men from a mating/relationship standpoint would rather stay "safe" and let the man approach. I also think that a lot of women get down on themselves for not being approached, too. There seems to be an expectation that men do all of the approaching because it is men who should be on the hunt for a mate and apparently men have no feelings (which is bullshit) so rejecting them is easy peasey.
My more confident self knows a lot better. I am not afraid to approach, start conversations, etc. It is not expressly related to my physical appearance but because I know what I can bring to the table. I have also learned that approaching people for the sake of it and leaving expectations at the door makes the entire exchange very natural and free of stress. I do not think most people handle it that way. They do not let nature take it's course. Instead, expectations are set upon themselves and other people and most of those expectations revolve around social conventions and a deluded self-perception.
A variety of reasons seem to be in play when it comes to women not making the first move. @Mishyou mentioned one in gender roles. Others are risk aversion--> Asking others for a date is very risky if you care about being rejected. Evolutionary psychology--> Women tend to be more non-verbal in their communication with others. Human social psychology--> Women want to know certain aspect about a man and much of that can be deciphered by how he asks the question. Do they seem insecure or overconfident? Those ques are very important in choosing a mate that is willing and capable of taking care of any child that comes from that relationship. This gives women more control over their partners. Control is critical because it is usually much more costly for women to choose their partners indiscriminately(~9 months of carrying a child vs the ability to have as many children as possible in that span).
I am not entirely sure where 'slut shaming' comes from. It might just be a way for women to eliminate competition by marking other women as something that society looks down on. But I guess the important thing to remember is that it really shouldn't matter what others think. Everything is subjective anyways. To put yourself down or others in order to follow the norms of society is ridiculous. Live your own life. Love yourself and others and everyone wins.
A variety of reasons seem to be in play when it comes to women not making the first move. @Mishyou mentioned one in gender roles. Others are risk aversion--> Asking others for a date is very risky if you care about being rejected. Evolutionary psychology--> Women tend to be more non-verbal in their communication with others. Human social psychology--> Women want to know certain aspect about a man and much of that can be deciphered by how he asks the question. Do they seem insecure or overconfident? Those ques are very important in choosing a mate that is willing and capable of taking care of any child that comes from that relationship. This gives women more control over their partners. Control is critical because it is usually much more costly for women to choose their partners indiscriminately(~9 months of carrying a child vs the ability to have as many children as possible in that span).
I am not entirely sure where 'slut shaming' comes from. It might just be a way for women to eliminate competition by marking other women as something that society looks down on. But I guess the important thing to remember is that it really shouldn't matter what others think. Everything is subjective anyways. To put yourself down or others in order to follow the norms of society is ridiculous. Live your own life. Love yourself and others and everyone wins.
I couldn't have said it better myself, . It is hard to determine where slut shaming has originated. I definitely agree that it's said by women in order to put themselves on a pedestal in comparison to other women. So all in all, insecurity is the root here.
Some truly believe that a woman is "tainted" if she is not a virgin. I'm not in any place to judge or try to change their beliefs, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is true. Like Yata has mentioned, people shouldn't care what others think. In the end their opinion is their own, and whether or not someone approves of it has minimal impact to your life.
I'm not big on the whole men vs. women thing. Men are women are different, and fabulous in many ways. We work a lot better when we work as a team
So if men always have to initiate then women should understand that whats coming their way a lot of the time are the most arrogant or self assured men
Doesn't this create some problems for both sexes?
Might it not be better if soemtimes women were the ones to reach out?
Women want equality...they want control over their lives...then shouldn't they go and take it?
My bet is a lot of guys would be happy if women took more control of things....and not just initiating. I bet a lot of guys would be happy to take a more nurturing role whilst the women did more of the work side of things.
Personally i think thats totally natural. I think we evolved in the past as men to go out and hunt and once that was done we hung around the camp teaching the kids stuff...nurturing, playing games, telling stories etc
this concept of men going out and doing all the work is a comparitively recent abheration. It kind of came in with farming but now we have machines so is it even necessary anymore?
Obviously this needs changes in law that allow dads as much paternity time for example...but changes in laws are always preceded by changes in attitudes
This notion of women asking men out reeks of new age feminio-marxism. The more the genders step out of their traditional roles the more they cede their freedoms to the neobankular fascist world state.
So if men always have to initiate then women should understand that whats coming their way a lot of the time are the most arrogant or self assured men
Doesn't this create some problems for both sexes?
Might it not be better if soemtimes women were the ones to reach out?
Women want equality...they want control over their lives...then shouldn't they go and take it?
My bet is a lot of guys would be happy if women took more control of things....and not just initiating. I bet a lot of guys would be happy to take a more nurturing role whilst the women did more of the work side of things.
Personally i think thats totally natural. I think we evolved in the past as men to go out and hunt and once that was done we hung around the camp teaching the kids stuff...nurturing, playing games, telling stories etc
this concept of men going out and doing all the work is a comparitively recent abheration. It kind of came in with farming but now we have machines so is it even necessary anymore?
Obviously this needs changes in law that allow dads as much paternity time for example...but changes in laws are always preceded by changes in attitudes
Great question. To determine if women should do that is all dependent on the women and societal structure. Does the risk outweigh the benefits? As long as the society continues to value physical appearance, the individuals with those traits will have the highest amount of "success" when it comes to finding mates . Society seems to be driven by those fears and a system that favors self-security over equality. Women should do that but I'm not sure many want to take the risk associated. It is also just as likely we will see women who are self assured and overconfident. The real issue at hand is the dating system. I favor a more "organic" means of relationship building and do not value many of the labels associated with relationships. You should be friends first. From there on out everything should take care of itself. Dating as it stands is just too mechanical for me and is not there for finding an emotional connection(what really matters to me; there are rare exceptions though).
This notion of women asking men out reeks of new age feminio-marxism. The more the genders step out of their traditional roles the more they cede their freedoms to the neobankular fascist world state.
This notion of women asking men out reeks of new age feminio-marxism. The more the genders step out of their traditional roles the more they cede their freedoms to the neobankular fascist world state.
While i do agree that there have been moves towards breaking up the family unit in order to encourage children to be raised by the state i think the ideas i'm suggesting would actually be beneficial to family units
I don't think those opposed to the NWO are against change they are just against political enslavement dressed up as something beneficial
Also my suggestions are not about people turning to government in any way...they are about turning to each other!
If women were more pro-active in asking guys out I think it would actually improve relations between the sexes not diminish them and heal the rift caused by marxist-feminism so that would be an anti-NWO move because the NWO wants men and women hating each other to keep them divided
But if women are approaching men and more and more men and women are getting together and making sweet music then it fouls up their dastardly plans
Great question. To determine if women should do that is all dependent on the women and societal structure. Does the risk outweigh the benefits? As long as the society continues to value physical appearance, the individuals with those traits will have the highest amount of "success" when it comes to finding mates . Society seems to be driven by those fears and a system that favors self-security over equality. Women should do that but I'm not sure many want to take the risk associated. It is also just as likely we will see women who are self assured and overconfident. The real issue at hand is the dating system. I favor a more "organic" means of relationship building and do not value many of the labels associated with relationships. You should be friends first. From there on out everything should take care of itself. Dating as it stands is just too mechanical for me and is not there for finding an emotional connection(what really matters to me; there are rare exceptions though).
Yeah i'm totally with you there man...friends and see how it develops is ideal
The problem people are now facing is that both men and women are working all the time and don't have the time to put into these things. Also with the break down of community we are seeing people more and more alienated
I think thats one reason behind a growth in things like speed dating and internet dating
Sometimes woman do make the first move, and there is nothing wrong with that.
I had a multiple girls ask me out back in high school (none since then), whereas I myself never tried to ask a girl out until latter in college. Those who asked me out still outnumber those I've asked out. (It is possible that a couple of them were teasing me rather than truly interested, but the first and most attractive of them was extremely earnest. She could not have faked those tears. I still regret not handling that situation better.)
I did not accept any of those girls requests, but this had nothing to do with any stupid gender norm about who should be active or passive. It did have a bit to do with the norms of responsibility within relationships. I did not have the economic wherewithal at the time to abide the norm of the male paying for all the dates, or even with the more modern norm of splitting the bills. My main reason, however, was that I felt it unfair to string a girl along while my heart really belonged to someone else. The norm of girls preferring older guys was relevant to me not daring to expressing my unrequited feelings for my first love (who was two and a half years older) and finding closure with her soon enough to be open to another.
It really bothered me the last two times I attended Sunday School (I did not go this week) when the teacher went out of his way to assert some rather disgustingly gender essentialist ideas on the psychological and spiritual differences between masculine and feminine. The bible verses he used to support the concept were extremely flimsy, and the ideas really had more to do with a form of bigotry more common in pre-Christian antiquity.
I felt like he was attacking me personally when he looked in my direction and said something like: "An essential part of a child becoming a man is learning to take the initiative to pursue his goals. This includes being highly proactive in the job hunt as well as asking out girls he finds attractive without waiting for them to give any signal that they are interested."
(His expression of patriarchal views seems worse given the contrast with his tone and mannerisms. I imagine he sets off false positives on a lot of people's gaydar. His voice is rather feminine and his MBTI seems to be ISFP, not a type often associated with strong masculinity.)
I would have found it less offensive had he called me out by name in front of everyone rather couching it in general terms. I personally probably should be more assertive and take the initiative more often in both my professional and love lives. There are many individuals of both sexes who are not assertive enough for their well being, and also many of both sexes who are too assertive. I would not hold that anything can be a virtue if it applies only to one sex instead of universally. Like most virtues, initiative is a golden mean between two vices and the best balance may vary circumstantially. (One vice might tends towards slightly worse outcomes for one sex under the assumptions of evolutionary psychology, but that should not matter much to the reasoning of a Sunday School teacher who had just denied that humans are the product of evolution.)
I don't condemn those whose personal proclivities just happen to align well with the expectations of their gender, but anyone who actively tries to shape his or her life in order to fit better into a stereotype deserves disdain. Those are shallow people and I don't have time for them.
His words did push me towards taking some action. I sent a Facebook friend request on Wednesday to the only girl in that class who interested me. (She is a very smart, beautiful and talented young lady who looked skeptical and the teacher's sexist words, and whose majors in neurology and behavioral biology should let her know better. Based on our prior interaction I had assumed she was an INFJ, but ENFJ seems far more likely after seeing her social network presence.) On Sunday I used the time when I'd normally see her at church to instead compose a private message:
My first message:
Hello [her first name],
I'm sorry I missed you at church this today. None of our family attended. My mother hasn't been feeling well lately and a medicine she is required to take each morning makes her too dizzy to get ready until almost noon. This morning, my father needed her help with something before he could get ready too. [My sister's first name] was running far behind on some homework, and also overslept.
I was up and out of the shower on time to come by myself, but had not slept well either. The last two days were unusually busy and required me to wake up early. There have also been certain anxieties pressing on my mind of late that have made it hard to doze off each night. These are the sort of issues I'm normally only comfortable discussing with one specific friend of mine, who has not returned my calls in the past three weeks.
To put it bluntly, the bulk of these concerns concern you. I've grown increasingly attracted to you at an alarming rate since the start of this semester. You have been my favorite person at [church's name] for a while, but I didn't imagine this leading anywhere until we had time to talk in private when the all rest of the class ran so late. It is eerie how similar your responses were (both the words and tone) to those received after sharing the same news with my aforementioned confidante. It might be highly presumptuous wishful thinking for me to infer any amorous intent from the conversation, or even from the glances I thought I caught from you since then, but the amiability was both manifest and appreciated.
I have reasons for relationship reluctance right now. The six year age gap seems a bit much, especially since I traditionally prefer the maturity of girls slightly older than myself. (Only once before have I contemplated asking out someone even six months my junior.) As busy as you apparently are these days, the thought of trying to keep up seems exhausting. The uncertainty of my ongoing job search remains a major barrier to wanting to pursue anyone. Unfortunately the interview we discussed came to naught. (This was largely because I made the mistake of mentioning another lead during the interview. He claimed he didn't want to keep me from a full time job more likely to lead to a real career. I haven't still heard back from the other lead yet though, and the open positions listed on their website don't sound like an ideal fit.) I could pay for a few dates out of my savings, but would hate to eat into such funds without any idea of how or at what rate they may be replenished. A bigger worry is not knowing when a job offer might require moving far away. For years now the thought of that has left me reluctant to form close personal bonds that might be cut short on short notice. There aren't many people around anymore who make me eager to stay, like you might. Regardless, I do hope we become closer friends, with contact beyond just Sunday School, whether that leads to anything more or not.
Her response:
Hi [my first name], I'm sorry to hear that your family is not doing well. I'll keep you all in my prayers. I want to be honest with you; I'm not interested romantically, but I hope we can be friends. Good luck with your continued job search.
@SpecialEdition said everything (and said it well) that I would have said as it related to environmental / self-image issues. Everyone should re-read it because she's correct.
Beyond that, I think nature plays into it as well - significantly, really. I lean heavily towards the sexually dominant end of the spectrum (not BDSM, though) so I certainly have my own bias, but I think a lot of women don't initiate simply because doing so necessarily eliminates a large part of what gets them off: being desired, being "taken" by a man, being a vessel for his pleasure, feeling overwhelmed by his strength, giving up control - etc, etc. There's a harmless vanity that runs deep in many women wherein they want to be the focal point of intense, male sexual desire. They'd rather get fucked than do the fucking. There is nothing wrong with this at all; I think it's really just our 10 million year old lizard brains still showing up in modern life. And there's exceptions to this general rule, of course.
I know in my life I prefer to make the first move. I'd rather initiate pretty much everything because it turns me on feeling my own power in my veins and feeling a feminine force respond to that. Yin / yang, I guess. I'll grab a woman's jaw, squeeze and say "open your mouth" -- feeling her do it a second later is sexy as hell and kissing her is that much better. It's just hot. But I can't imagine a woman initiating something like that with me and most women I've been with can't imagine it either. It's really just primitive animalism, I think.
I never ask a guy out. I always let him approach me.
This might sound like such a special sunflower response, and I don't mean to sound whiny, but I've mild Autism irl and I have a hard time flirting or sending romantic signals.
So whenever I get asked out I always let him make the first move, to make sure he feels comfortable around me. Whenever I'm not being a mimic to other people's behavior I can be quite strange.
This might sound so dumb but I'm so confused how to be romantic. So I let the guy lead me in to a romantic situation, it helps when I observe him to help catch on and slowly understand.
I really think I need to get books giving advice on how to be romantic and approach men.
@SpecialEdition said everything (and said it well) that I would have said as it related to environmental / self-image issues. Everyone should re-read it because she's correct.
Beyond that, I think nature plays into it as well - significantly, really. I lean heavily towards the sexually dominant end of the spectrum (not BDSM, though) so I certainly have my own bias, but I think a lot of women don't initiate simply because doing so necessarily eliminates a large part of what gets them off: being desired, being "taken" by a man, being a vessel for his pleasure, feeling overwhelmed by his strength, giving up control - etc, etc. There's a harmless vanity that runs deep in many women wherein they want to be the focal point of intense, male sexual desire. They'd rather get fucked than do the fucking. There is nothing wrong with this at all; I think it's really just our 10 million year old lizard brains still showing up in modern life. And there's exceptions to this general rule, of course.
I know in my life I prefer to make the first move. I'd rather initiate pretty much everything because it turns me on feeling my own power in my veins and feeling a feminine force respond to that. Yin / yang, I guess. I'll grab a woman's jaw, squeeze and say "open your mouth" -- feeling her do it a second later is sexy as hell and kissing her is that much better. It's just hot. But I can't imagine a woman initiating something like that with me and most women I've been with can't imagine it either. It's really just primitive animalism, I think.
I think a lot of the fun is appreciation of the other and their difference from us
I wonder if certain cultural forces aren't messing with the dynamics a bit and muddying the waters by trying to make us all believe we are exactly the same or by trying to flip roles
