Why did communism fail

[brightmoon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] Well yes its opinion (yours) that democratic socialism doesn't "work" . Greece didn't fail because of socialism, it failed because of a culture of corruption.

"First things first, Greece is not a socialistic country — though it did recently elect the left-wing Syriza party to office, which explains the current standoff between Greece and the neoliberal Troika. The reality is, compared to other European countries, its social expenditure-to-GDP level does not even make in the top ten list. France, Finland, and Belgium spend the highest social expenditure-to-GDP levels, according to the OECD, while even Germany, which has been the foremost advocate of austerity, had a higher social expenditure-to-GDP level than Greece in 2014, as well as in 2009. Furthermore, many of these high social expenditure countries, such as Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, have significantly lower debt-to-GDP rates than the United States." See: http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/19/is-greece-a-case-of-failed-socialism/

So you can say that's not matter of opinion like its a fact that can't challenged, but I can assure it can be

[MENTION=13999]Pleiades[/MENTION] I'm not opposed to capitalism, I am opposed to an unregulated unfettered capitalism, the kind of capitalism that is being preached by Republicans these days that ends in high concentration of wealth in the hands of a very few, monopolistic power, weakened environmental and regulatory protections.

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] Well yes its opinion (yours) that democratic socialism doesn't "work" . Greece didn't fail because of socialism, it failed because of a culture of corruption.

"First things first, Greece is not a socialistic country — though it did recently elect the left-wing Syriza party to office, which explains the current standoff between Greece and the neoliberal Troika. The reality is, compared to other European countries, its social expenditure-to-GDP level does not even make in the top ten list. France, Finland, and Belgium spend the highest social expenditure-to-GDP levels, according to the OECD, while even Germany, which has been the foremost advocate of austerity, had a higher social expenditure-to-GDP level than Greece in 2014, as well as in 2009. Furthermore, many of these high social expenditure countries, such as Denmark, Norway, and Sweden, have significantly lower debt-to-GDP rates than the United States." See: http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/06/19/is-greece-a-case-of-failed-socialism/

So you can say that's not matter of opinion like its a fact that can't challenged, but I can assure it can be

[MENTION=13999]Pleiades[/MENTION] I'm not opposed to capitalism, I am opposed to an unregulated unfettered capitalism, the kind of capitalism that is being preached by Republicans these days that ends in high concentration of wealth in the hands of a very few, monopolistic power, weakened environmental and regulatory protections.

Cute. So now we are going to start the I know you are but what am I argument. My is not opinion. History haw recorded the failure of socialism and if you want to learn about it all you havw to do is some searching for the information. I gave you the most glaring current failure, Greece to start with.

So again your mind shuts out what it doesn't want to accpet and replaces it with some imaginary version of reality. I suspect the world is exceptionally confusing for you. For myself it makes sense but its disheartening and bleak.

 

[brightmoon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] I'm not at all confused. You seem to be one who believes that their opinion is the same as a fact, This is easy if you choose by select only the facts that support your opinions.

The fact is Germany and Norway were and are more socialistic than Greece and for some odd reason didn't fail.

Communism and democratic socialism aren't the same thing which is where part of your confusion lies.

 

[Stu]

I know a ton of people who have selected the Welfare route. They work the system and mass-produce children to get tax breaks and free money. it's disgusting. and they ARE lazy. Obama increased their numbers. I remember when he got elected. I saw a facebook post that said. "ok we got Obama. Now where's my money????" I am rich by no means. But I have enough to get by and have earned every penny of it. I would be ashamed to take something that I did not earn..

This just does not bother me at all.
First of all, I do not know a ton of people just to start with, never mind a ton of impoverished people. Most of the folks I know are through my kids' school. Granted some of them are pretty poor, but the vast majority of them are from families that seem to be doing pretty well. I do not know anyone that is a friend or acquaintance that to my knowledge is on any kind of assistance.
My wife used to work at a non profit that provided social services to poor women and some of those folks were caught in a cycle of teen mothers, some 3 or 4 generations deep with multiple kids from multiple fathers. Those situations are really bad. It is not because they figure "hey the gov will pay me to have kids" It is more like "I hate myself but if I degrade myself for this man and then have a kid maybe he will love me which is doubtful because I HATE MYSELF"
I do know a couple of families who have kids born in the US but the parents are undocumented and there are almost no services available to them. One kids mom died last year of cancer with NO and I mean NO meaningful assistance give other than the Go Fund Me site I helped the dad set up.

And as far a the fall of communism goes, There never was an actual communist economy. If there had been then maybe we could talk about how it failed (which it probably would as Marx's reading on what motivates people was deeply flawed).

Social Services for kids born into impoverished unhealthy families? The question is not should we, it is how can we do it so it works.

 

[Siimplicity]

communist economy

I adore you, Stu, but I have to disagree.
the above is a textbook example of an oxymoron. there is no such thing as economy in Communism.

"com·mu·nism.
[ˈkämyəˌnizəm]
NOUN
1.a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. See also Marxism."

as to people I know of specifically who abuse social services, it doesn't take too many of them to make a ton -- they are quite immense...except for the one on drugs and continues to have special needs kids to get more benefits money to chase her dragons. it's dreadful.. we would seek to envision assistance for legitimate needy only for such urchins to take advantage. and there are SO many. neither system is perfected..perhaps all future systems will be thus imperfect as we are all only human.

but communism terrifies me. the very idea. so dangerous to our freedoms and our visions. You like craft beer, right? Suppose a communist government did not. Suppose they figured that alcoholism should be eradicated and so they banned it all for everyone. the art and science of the brew would be lost. the freedom to kick back in your garage with the latest batch of "Stu-brau" would not exist. Communism is such a bad idea for culture, for commerce, for individuals, for innovation, for evolution. I would fight it with every fiber of my being. I would rather die than see it take root in my beloved country.

 

[Sinny]

the American dream is FREEDOM to be able to PROVIDE FOR YOURSELF for your family... for LIFE, LIBERTY AND THE PURSUIT OF HAPPINESS.

And does the reality look anything like that? lol, facepalm. America is practically a military state. The American police have been militarised.

That is freedom to take an opportunity and to do what you want with it. it's not necessarily to become fabulously wealthy. if you want to go live in a van down by the river, that's your prerogative. if you want to build an empire, you can.

Oh and just look where that has gotten us. The Rockefeller empire, the Murdoch empire, the Clinton empire, the military industrial complex empire. Great planning that.

my family came here from England in 1905 seeking OPPORTUNITY. That is what people who emigrate here now are seeking.

And? Opportunity is all around US. The US is not special in this regard.

Impose Communism and it all falls down. Capitalism is what makes this country amazing.

'Murica!! lul.

Our businesses create jobs that lead to careers.

No shit.

Capitalization provides opportunity for all.

Er no, it does not. It deliberately exploits the poorest/weakest. It encourages reserved labour forces, meaning that some one is always at the bottom getting troddon on, (because they don't look after these people either).

Everyone can reach for whatever goals they want. How can that not be inspiring?

That is inspiring, but it's bullshit.

And I do honor my civic duties. I vote. I pay my property taxes. I do not agree with what my rather liberal state is doing with most of them, but I do wish they would instead apply my taxes to roads and infrastructure (that's why seattle sucks-- they have medieval roads-- it's awful)

What a good little drone you are.

I know a ton of people who have selected the Welfare route. They work the system and mass-produce children to get tax breaks and free money. it's disgusting.

Well most the people I know in England are the working poor. My self included. Our wages are so low, most receive tops up from 'the government'. And job's are so unstable, people are in and out of work frequently. The difference between being 'ok' and facing rent arrears for most of the working poor is a month or two's wage. One fuck up, and your fucked.

and they ARE lazy.

I know I'm talking about the UK and you are not, but I highly doubt that that is true as an absolute.

Obama increased their numbers. I remember when he got elected. I saw a facebook post that said. "ok we got Obama. Now where's my money????" I am rich by no means. But I have enough to get by and have earned every penny of it. I would be ashamed to take something that I did not earn.

I think it's all part of a greater conspiracy to make us all reliant on Uncle Sam.
The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away.

 

[Siimplicity]

[MENTION=14074]Sinny[/MENTION]

I've liked many of your posts, but I disagree with you here. Are you saying that you prefer communism to capitalism? You would be/are a communist? wouldn't you be drinking your own commie-koolaid there? please don't ever call me a drone. because though my ambitions are not anarchic and I work hard within a system to make it work for my life, pay my taxes, live my own dreams, choose my own goals, the crux is, I have the freedom to choose my way. and I love that my country has been founded on those principles.

 

[Stu]

I adore you, Stu, but I have to disagree.
the above is a textbook example of an oxymoron. there is no such thing as economy in Communism.

"com·mu·nism.
[ˈkämyəˌnizəm]
NOUN
1.a political theory derived from Karl Marx, advocating class war and leading to a society in which all property is publicly owned and each person works and is paid according to their abilities and needs. See also Marxism."

An economy (Greek οίκος – "household" and νέμoμαι – "manage") is an area of the production, distribution, or trade, and consumption of goods and services by different agents in a given geographical location. The economic agents can be individuals, businesses, organizations, or governments. Transactions occur when two parties agree to the value or price of the transacted good or service, commonly expressed in a certain currency

This is not religion, its economics.
Every society outlaws that which it finds abhorrent.
Authoritarian and Totalitarian societies can be capitalist or socialist. Capitalism is not the ultimate defense against tyranny. To believe so is to put your freedom in jeopardy.
As far as I am concerned, the very wealth, the investor class, the so called "job creators" are leaches.

 

[Sinny]

[MENTION=14074]Sinny[/MENTION]

I've liked many of your posts, but I disagree with you here. Are you saying that you prefer communism to capitalism? You would be/are a communist? wouldn't you be drinking your own commie-koolaid there? please don't ever call me a drone. because though my ambitions are not anarchic and I work hard within a system to make it work for my life, pay my taxes, live my own dreams, choose my own goals, the crux is, I have the freedom to choose my way. and I love that my country has been founded on those principles.

I like you, and some of your other posts too, but no I'm not a commy nor do I want to be one. But like Stu I think your pro capitalism bias is a dangerous Ideology.

 

[Siimplicity]

This is not religion, its economics.
Authoritarian and Totalitarian societies can be capitalist or socialist. Capitalism is not the ultimate defense against tyranny. To believe so is to put your freedom in jeopardy.

correct -- this thread is debating why communism won't work. did I mention religion somewhere? Above you say Capitalism is not defense against tyranny. Are you saying that communism is better for my personal freedoms? I cannot see how that could be when communism would repeal all of them

[MENTION=14074]Sinny[/MENTION] [MENTION=1939]Stu[/MENTION]
I will reiterate once more -- no system is perfect but the one we've got is far better than communism. it's the system wherein I can say that I disagree with you, but I will defend to the death your personal right to speak your mind. thank you for your insights -- even if we disagree, we are allowed to speak in freedom what is in our hearts. the current system supports our freedom to do so and I have enjoyed this exercise with you. <3

 

[brightmoon]

What I don't like is this narrative that divided people into the "makers" (those that create wealth, work, and pay taxes) and the takers (those that receive entitlements and live off them). Reality is just not this simple. People use social programs all the time and they are useful, like unemployment insurance. Life without them become life like Depression or the Third World with no safety net. with people just struggling to survive and those that are born into poverty staying in their slums. How about people being forced into bankruptcy because they became ill? This is not the hallmark of a civilized society, much less a society with the amount of wealth that the US has. Then there the companies that get bailed out and the banks (too big to fail) that needed their handout, but when it comes to this type of welfare, the right wingers seem perfectly okay with it.

Does welfare get abused? Yes it does, but the abuses are exaggerated for the most part. Could the system be improved? Yes it could and likely should be.

As I have stated in the past, I am not a Communist. I do believe in a tightly regulated capitalism. When I say 100% pure capitalism is unworkable I mean it. It's a libertarian fantasy with no regulation and where private interests are the one interests that matter, and all services from justice to monetary policy serve the interests of the super-rich and multi-national corporations. The public interest not private interests have to be paramount. Monopoly power is dangerous and needs to be combated which was recognized by people earlier in the 20th century, but its a lesson that we seem to have forgotten now.

 

[Stu]

The thread asks why did communism fail.
I proposed that it was never tried, what we call communism was not what the economic system developed by Marx called for.
I am not arguing that it would work just that it has not ever been tried.

All this passionate rhetoric about dying aside, believing in capitalism with religious fervor only makes the changes that need to happen for our society to continue to evolve all the harder.

 

[Siimplicity]

Wait -- wait!! I have the answer!!!

THUNDER DOME

 

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=8603]Eventhorizon[/MENTION] I'm not at all confused. You seem to be one who believes that their opinion is the same as a fact, This is easy if you choose by select only the facts that support your opinions.

The fact is Germany and Norway were and are more socialistic than Greece and for some odd reason didn't fail.

Communism and democratic socialism aren't the same thing which is where part of your confusion lies.

Correction, has not failed yet. Theres a big difference there. And I dont know how socialistic either is. America has been a capitalist country for what...300 years?

 

[Eventhorizon]

The thread asks why did communism fail.
I proposed that it was never tried, what we call communism was not what the economic system developed by Marx called for.
I am not arguing that it would work just that it has not ever been tried.

All this passionate rhetoric about dying aside, believing in capitalism with religious fervor only makes the changes that need to happen for our society to continue to evolve all the harder.

Agreed. However I will say what I have always said. Until someone thinks of something better capitalism is the best we have in the world. Trying to undermine and destroy it should be considered treason and dealt with accordingly.

 

[the]

Was communism even really attempted? I don't think so.

 

[sassafras]

Any system of government is only as good and effective as the leaders and policy makers at its helm. Personally, the present state of democracy and the characters and actions of contemporary politicians has severely thwarted my faith in assembling any kind of centralized governing body that could competently accomplish half of what socialist theorists posit is possible.

It's not the system that's broken. It's how it's used. It's the people in power. And it will be true of anything we implement.

 

[brightmoon]

Trying to undermine and destroy it should be considered treason and dealt with accordingly.

Treason? To what and to whom? Tell me. because I'm interested, how would you deal with people whose ideas you oppose? How would you define undermining it?

correction, has not failed yet. Theres a big difference there.

When and if, I suppose. You are confident in your position, I will concede that much, but I still disagree and you have not been successful in convincing me either.

 

[Sinny]

Agreed. However I will say what I have always said. Until someone thinks of something better capitalism is the best we have in the world. Trying to undermine and destroy it should be considered treason and dealt with accordingly.

What utter crap, lol.
Bloody Mccarthyite.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism

 

[sprinkles]

Capitalism is slowly being eroded and surpassed by knowledge.

Communism wanted the common people to own the means of production. The problem was they tried to own it collectively without the requisite knowledge or desire to use it. But now knowledge will supplant ownership and eventually nobody will own production because everybody can make production.

Individuals who have the knowledge and desire to produce do not need corporatism. Things like 3D printing and the ability to print circuits in your kitchen is starting to make production ownership less important.