Where you end and I begin

[Asa]

I had a weird experience the other day where a friend refused to take no for an answer when he suggested I do something that violates my life code. What I mean by "life code" is a person's belief systems, whether those beliefs are morals/ethics, religion, straight edge, vegetarianism/veganism, gender preference, partner preference, or any other reason someone has for living as they do.
I could "feel" my friend stepping farther and farther over the 'fence' surrounding me to argue that I needed to loosen my standards to comply with what he thought was right for me.
This is a big way of crossing boundaries that a lot of people don't respect.
I've had other issues with him in the past and because of his proximity to the topics when he crossed boundaries, I believe he harbors a lot of self-hatred and has significant trouble with boundaries in general (both his and other people's.) I understand this and can deflect.
It was disrespectful and left me with a knot in my stomach.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

I had a weird experience the other day where a friend refused to take no for an answer when he suggested I do something that violates my life code. What I mean by "life code" is a person's belief systems, whether those beliefs are morals/ethics, religion, straight edge, vegetarianism/veganism, gender preference, partner preference, or any other reason someone has for living as they do.
I could "feel" my friend stepping farther and farther over the 'fence' surrounding me to argue that I needed to loosen my standards to comply with what he thought was right for me.
This is a big way of crossing boundaries that a lot of people don't respect.
I've had other issues with him in the past and because of his proximity to the topics when he crossed boundaries, I believe he harbors a lot of self-hatred and has significant trouble with boundaries in general (both his and other people's.) I understand this and can deflect.
It was disrespectful and left me with a knot in my stomach.

What the fuck?

Sounds like you ought to distance yourself from this dude.

 

[Impact Character]

Hmh, I'm not so good to realize this effect when it happens to me but this is how I've seen it happening to friends and their friends:
It is often connected to a lack of control over their own issues and projected onto the behaviours and life code of others. It can get rather nasty and intense because by trying to fight ground you just become another momentum of the lack of control issues and it energizes and hardens the conflict within the person. :/

I usually go into "what is he/she trying to teach me?/"what is the wisdom?"-mode while listening (hence it is difficult to realize sometimes) but I guess it is a bit more self-stabilizing to ask the person questions in order to redirect it in a constructive manner without pushing their nose into the issues that they are trying to cope with by projecting.

Hmh imagine to deal with that energy like a water flow. You cannot stop it but you can redirect the stream.

Edit: easier said than done, of course, when you are in focus of that energy and hurt or angry because your boundaries are disrespected. :/

 

[sassafras]

Hmh, I'm not so good to realize this effect when it happens to me but this is how I've seen it happening to friends and their friends:
It is often connected to a lack of control over their own issues and projected onto the behaviours and life code of others. It can get rather nasty and intense because by trying to fight ground you just become another momentum of the lack of control issues and it energizes and hardens the conflict withing the person. :/

I usually go into "what is he/she trying to teach me?/"what is the wisdom?"-mode while listening (hence it is difficult to realize sometimes) but I guess it is a bit more self-stabilizing to ask the person questions in order to redirect it in a constructive manner without pushing their nose into the issues that they are trying to cope with by projecting.

Hmh imagine to deal with that energy like a water flow. You cannot stop it but you can redirect the stream.

Edit: easier said than done, of course, when you are in focus of that energy and hurt or angry because your boundaries are disrespected. :/

Another hard balance to strike. I agree that questions are more constructive because it keeps the focus on the individual rather than what you (general you) are responding to when you offer your advice.

At the end of the day, though, people are adults... and you have to let them be adults. You don’t know everything either. You’re only ever seeing a small piece of their lives.

 

[SpecialEdition]

Yeah, it is scary. I'm actually crying now because I love him so much and it pains me for him to be like this now. We used to be so close. He and I have been through some of the worst shit together. He knows first hand what I've endured and yet now seems to blame me for being affected by it all. He's fucking brilliant, he was always my rock, my touchstone. I've always known that if I needed solid, objective advice that he was the person to go to. A perfect example that sort of sums up our dynamic when we were younger is this: I remember one night when we were kids (me 5/6, him 2/3), there was a really bad storm and he came into my room in the middle of the night and crawled into bed with me because he was scared. I remember covering him up and tucking him in while telling him that everything was going to be okay. Once he was calm, I got up and looked in our mom's bedroom to find she wasn't there, but I heard voices coming from the living room so I crept through the dining room to have a peek at who it was because I didn't recognize them and it was a man and 2 or 3 women with beer cans and booze bottles and lines of coke on the coffee table, our mother nowhere in sight. Turns out, she had been out partying and left us kids at home with some strangers. Undetected, I walked back to my bedroom and got back into bed with my brother with the understanding that I was in charge of our safety. It just hurts so bad when I think about the way that he used to look to me for comfort and understanding, and now he treats me like a failure because of my inability to stand aside from the pain of our childhood and cause it all to mean nothing.



No, not that I can recall. I've tried to figure that out myself...

Disclaimer: I may be projecting.
I don't know your brother of course, but it sounds like he's hardened himself against life and other people as a means to cope with what your experiences were as children. He may actually believe this is the right way of being and that by being this angry and overbearing and caustic is setting both and example and expectation that he is impenetrable now and if you don't like it, too bad for you.

This reminds me a lot of myself in my 20's actually. I was emotionally abused for several years and instead of seeking help, support or comfort in anyway way it was my coping mechanism to shut down completely emotionally and use rage as my barrier. I didn't know how else to have boundaries except to be so explosive and emotionally shut down that it was impossible for anyone to get close to me. If you asked me if I loved or cared for someone the answer would be yes, but I couldn't soften my exterior or how I was with those people because I was so rigidly trying to protect myself from being emotionally and psychologically infiltrated. If you went through my post history over the last 10 years you'd see a LOT of examples of this "coping mechanism" coming out. It's like after shocks of a bad earthquake. Every once in a while it comes up.

I honestly do not know how I maintained any friendships during that time - those people who chose to continue caring for me even when I so.... sharp all the time are saints.

The screenshot of what your brother wrote to you is something that I probably would have wrote myself during that time of my life.

Eventually being that angry and closed off all the time only contributed to a steady decline in my mental health and I ended up being completely isolated and unable to leave my house. My anger, my determination to never be seen as weak, etc ended up being the thing that drove me to getting it sorted out because I just thought "Fuck, this is so annoying that I'm dealing with this. I need to get rid of it asap." I ended up in therapy for the 5th time and instead of talking about my panic disorder and agoraphobia the sessions evolved into talking about the abuse I went through and being able to resolve it.

Anyway. I say all of this to you because it doesn't sound to me like he's a bad person. It sounds like he's a person that's chosen a bad way to deal with life and he will end up figuring out (hopefully) that this isn't the way and it's actually causing him stress and misery instead of what he thinks it's doing.

I would say to love him, but you don't have to expose yourself to the way he is either. I am guessing that anything you say to him about how he's behaving is met with some kind of justification on his end because he's not ready to ACTUALLY empathize and start dismantling that emotional fortress he's been building for a long time. It's hard to strike a balance. I wish the best for both of you.

 

[Impact Character]

Another hard balance to strike. I agree that questions are more constructive because it keeps the focus on the individual rather than what you (general you) are responding to when you offer your advice.

At the end of the day, though, people are adults... and you have to let them be adults. You don’t know everything either. You’re only ever seeing a small piece of their lives.

Yes, it's really hard.. and tbh I didn't mean any advice-giving or having-insight part even yet but really just get rid of the targeting to be able to get openly clearance and talk about what is going on by asking questions.

 

[Asa]

What the fuck?

Sounds like you ought to distance yourself from this dude.

Yeah, this is usually something I see with younger people and peer pressure.

After the other day I decided I need to make more space between the two of us.

Hmh, I'm not so good to realize this effect when it happens to me but this is how I've seen it happening to friends and their friends:
It is often connected to a lack of control over their own issues and projected onto the behaviours and life code of others. It can get rather nasty and intense because by trying to fight ground you just become another momentum of the lack of control issues and it energizes and hardens the conflict withing the person. :/

I usually go into "what is he/she trying to teach me?/"what is the wisdom?"-mode while listening (hence it is difficult to realize sometimes) but I guess it is a bit more self-stabilizing to ask the person questions in order to redirect it in a constructive manner without pushing their nose into the issues that they are trying to cope with by projecting.

Hmh imagine to deal with that energy like a water flow. You cannot stop it but you can redirect the stream.

The GIF you included is great!

And yes! You're right. I almost included my analysis.

What was he trying to teach me?: To keep my mouth shut and walk away.

When omnis suggest I support something that is directly non-vegan I usually say, "Thank you for your suggestion," and go on with my day. I don't want to argue and I don't like talking about veganism with omnis, which is why I didn't explain the story before.
He is/was experimenting with veganism, so when he asked me to support a place, I told him I didn't want to support a place that slaughters animals. This led to him crossing boundaries. My problem was that I didn't walk away. People who regularly push boundaries get more excited by this type of energy in conversations.

In my experience, whenever he says something disrespectful or crosses a boundary it directly links to self-hate and possibly issues with gaining his father's approval. I think being objectified and possibly sexually harassed has taught him poor boundaries as well. The conversation was about his struggle with his lifestyle choices. My issue is that I shouldn't expect fellow vegans (or those attempting it) to be open to my perspective and I should just walk away.

Another hard balance to strike. I agree that questions are more constructive because it keeps the focus on the individual rather than what you (general you) are responding to when you offer your advice.

At the end of the day, though, people are adults... and you have to let them be adults. You don’t know everything either. You’re only ever seeing a small piece of their lives.

True.

 

[mintoots]

This thread. Whew.

People who have been through the worst but still choose the good are the best people. Shout out to all of you in this thread.

This right here is how I have faith in humanity.


EDIT: p.s. i'm learning so much about boundaries here.