What's my Enneagram type?

[athenian200]

I'm pretty certain that I'm an INFJ.

The only thing I'm not sure about is my Enneagram type. I seem to keep struggling to decide between 4, 5, and 9.

Here are the reasons for each.

For 4:

1. This is the most common type for INFJs.

2. I have a desire to be accepted for who I am.

3. I sometimes feel that I'm different from others.

4. I tend to believe that negative emotions last longer and have greater capacity to define a person than positive ones.

5. I often wish to be different from who I am right now.

6. I sometimes feel that I'm missing something that other people have.

Against 4:

1. I have no wish to be unique and individual. In fact, I often wish I were normal.

2. I don't necessarily consider "authenticity" to be as important as quality, or being reasonable.

3. I don't like to wallow in my own feelings, and prefer to attend to those of others.

4. Art is not particularly close to my soul, though it does interest me.

For 5:

1. I often feel that I'm a detached observer of situations, like I'm looking at everything from the outside.

2. My general curiosity is often what keeps me going.

3. I'm interested in the mental aspect of things, and using my imagination to escape from reality.

4. I'm often obsessed with exploring the implications of an idea.

5. I have a desire to understand reality.

6. I spend a lot of time alone, and don't like the idea of needing others.

Against 5:

1. I don't have strong hoarding tendencies. I prefer to give things to others if I see that they're in need of them.

2. I'm fairly good about expressing my feelings and talking things out with other people.

For 9:

1. I value harmony, and seeing how everyone is part of a whole, connected.

2. I tend to lose myself in habits and routines, escape anger by overeating, etc.

3. I enjoy and appreciate symbolism.

4. I prefer to accommodate people rather than stand up to them.

Against 9:

1. If I feel anger, I usually vent it to someone. I don't think I have a lot of repressed anger.

2. I don't tend to be trusting of others.

3. I usually don't try to tune out reality the majority of the time. When I do, I usually tend to detach from it, not ignore it.

Well, what do you think? 4, 5, 9, or something else entirely?

 

[durentu]

in relation to your parents

type 4: disconnected from both nurturing figure and protective figure
type 5: ambivalent to both nurturing figure and protective figure
type 9: connected to both nurturing figure and protective figure

if you can imagine yourself in the best of times and the worse of times, you can type yourself in the enneagram this way with help from the paths to integration and disintegration

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Based on what you posted, I'd say 5, probably with a 4 wing.

I was edging that way anyway, and then I read this bit:

3. I usually don't try to tune out reality the majority of the time. When I do, I usually tend to detach from it, not ignore it.

That's classic type 5 stuff right there.

-----------

EDIT: Just to clear up a couple of things that I think might be misconceptions:

4. I tend to believe that negative emotions last longer and have greater capacity to define a person than positive ones.

Might be true for relatively unhealthy examples, but I don't think it's a type 4 thing per se. More typical type 4s tend to fully inhabit all their emotions, trying to feel them as strongly as possible (because we think it'll fill "the hole").

1. I don't have strong hoarding tendencies. I prefer to give things to others if I see that they're in need of them.

Sounds to me more like an sp variant thing rather than a type 5 thing.

3. I enjoy and appreciate symbolism.

Is this a type 9 thing? I hadn't heard this one before, what's the rational behind it?

 

[athenian200]

in relation to your parents

type 4: disconnected from both nurturing figure and protective figure
type 5: ambivalent to both nurturing figure and protective figure
type 9: connected to both nurturing figure and protective figure

if you can imagine yourself in the best of times and the worse of times, you can type yourself in the enneagram this way with help from the paths to integration and disintegration

I'm not so sure about that theory, but I suppose I could try it. It's just that I have trouble deciding which times were the best and worst. Most of it seems neutral or bad.

I know about the paths of disintegration and integration, but it seems like I can find things that fit any given set of those paths, depending on what type I'm tending towards at the moment.

Based on what you posted, I'd say 5, probably with a 4 wing.

Interesting.

That's classic type 5 stuff right there.

Indeed... I guess it is.

Might be true for relatively unhealthy examples, but I don't think it's a type 4 thing per se. More typical type 4s tend to fully inhabit all their emotions, trying to feel them as strongly as possible (because we think it'll fill "the hole").

That's interesting. I don't really see why you'd want to fill the hole rather than just accept that the hole is there, and that there's nothing wrong with it. I think of that hole as being like a drain that keeps everything from becoming flooded. I usually have the opposite response to emotions... I feel them most intensely when I first experience them, and they reduce in intensity rapidly after I get out of the situation, and have a chance to process them.

You try to feel all your emotions MORE intensely... on purpose? That sounds painful.

I'd never considered that approach. It seems like it's valid, and could work for some people.

Sounds to me more like an sp variant thing rather than a type 5 thing.

What does?

Is this a type 9 thing? I hadn't heard this one before, what's the rational behind it?

"Nines can also be quite imaginative and creative, and they enjoy expressing themselves in symbolic ways—through music, dance, images, or mythic stories, for instance."

This was on the official Enneagram Institute website. Perhaps it's not really that accurate.

 

[TinyBubbles]

i think you are quite balanced between 4 and 5, going by what you've said and what i know of your posts here either way, you're pretty wonderful <3

 

[DefectiveCreative]

That's interesting. I don't really see why you'd want to fill the hole rather than just accept that the hole is there, and that there's nothing wrong with it.

I think we may be envisioning different kinds of holes. A type 4's hole results from the fear we have that we're unlovable, because we're defective in some way. We're missing something critical that other people have, but we don't. The trick to becoming a healthy type 4 is to realise that we are lovable, we're not defective, we're not missing anything, and so the hole was never really there at all.

I think of that hole as being like a drain that keeps everything from becoming flooded.

Interesting that you think that, as one of the type 5's biggest fears is of being overwhelmed by things.

I usually have the opposite response to emotions... I feel them most intensely when I first experience them, and they reduce in intensity rapidly after I get out of the situation, and have a chance to process them.

My experience has been that type 4s usually have to make a concious effort to stop themselves wallowing in their emotions, if you don't have to do that then it implies you're probably not a type 4, IMO.

You try to feel all your emotions MORE intensely... on purpose? That sounds painful.

It can be, nobody does self-hatred quite like an unhealthy type 4.

I'd never considered that approach. It seems like it's valid, and could work for some people.

In the short term, but it's not an effective long-term strategy for happiness.

What does?

Hoarding stuff. Self-preserving variants place a lot of significance on material security, so I'd expect them to be natural hoarders (unless they're counter-phobic, in which case they'll probably be overly generous).

"Nines can also be quite imaginative and creative, and they enjoy expressing themselves in symbolic ways

 

[athenian200]

So you don't necessarily identify with 5 over 4 or 9?

I'm just not certain what I identify with, or whether it matters. Identifying with a type doesn't make one that type.

I often identify with 5, yes. Sometimes I can also relate to 9 or 4.

My sense of personal identity doesn't seem like a reliable enough gauge of my actual nature, because it's very weak and fluctuates a lot. I just don't have a strong sense of "I" or "Me." I tend to only see myself in relation to groups or archetypes.

I try to type myself based on agreement with specific qualities of the descriptions as being most consistently true of behavior over the course of a long period of time.

5 has the majority of such qualities. 4 and 9 qualities come in and out of my life frequently enough to make me uncertain, however.

Anyway, this discussion is off-topic on the thread we were discussing it on. Thus, I'm going to post my reply to the discussion I previously started on this topic.

 

[KazeCraven]

Eh, I should add, regarding other posts here, the following:

Self-Preservation Fives: Isolation (Ichazo's "Castle")
Self-Preservation Fives are the most introverted Fives—the Fives most likely to seek long periods of privacy and solitude. The hoarding of the Five is focused in the areas of practical resources, living quarters, and personal space. Self-Pres Fives attempt to find out how few self-preservation needs they can subsist on, likely agreeing with Thoreau's statement that "A man is rich in proportion to what he can do without." They are intensely private people who seem to require few comforts, even if they have substantial personal wealth. To some degree, they enjoy the company of trusted others and enjoy sharing their knowledge with people. They can also be counted on for their sense of whimsy and oddball humor. Nonetheless, Self-Pres Fives need lots of time by themselves to regenerate their energy. Many choose to live alone, or if they are in a partnership, they require personal space (such as a study or a nook in the basement) into which others, even loved ones, will not intrude. They also tend to hoard personal effects, stockpiling their homes like castles preparing for a siege. As much as they may like and admire others, they attempt to keep their relationships few and simple, so that they can focus on what holds interest for them.

Thus type 5 sp's are actually hoarders of knowledge rather than of items. Though acts of generosity would not characterize them per se.

I'm just not certain what I identify with, or whether it matters. Identifying with a type doesn't make one that type.

Yes, but it does make it more likely (i.e. pieces fitting together to reveal the self).

My sense of personal identity doesn't seem like a reliable enough gauge of my actual nature, because it's very weak and fluctuates a lot. I just don't have a strong sense of "I" or "Me." I tend to only see myself in relation to groups or archetypes.

Could be an argument for a type 9, as self is undefined for them, though I think many people would feel the same perhaps?

My conclusion: also think 5w4.

 

[athenian200]

I think we may be envisioning different kinds of holes. A type 4's hole results from the fear we have that we're unlovable, because we're defective in some way. We're missing something critical that other people have, but we don't. The trick to becoming a healthy type 4 is to realise that we are lovable, we're not defective, we're not missing anything, and so the hole was never really there at all.

Some people actually are missing something that other people have, though. People with learning disabilities like dyslexia or dyscalculia? People with blindness, deafness, etc? Sometimes that hole is really there. In fact, I think that almost everyone is missing something that most other people have, whether they know it or not... I think that's what makes people individuals.

Interesting that you think that, as one of the type 5's biggest fears is of being overwhelmed by things.

Indeed. I've done so many things in my life to ensure that I don't become overwhelmed. I never took AP classes in High School because I was worried the more clever teachers would outwit me and I'd fail. In regular classes, I knew I was probably almost as intelligent as the teacher, so there was little chance of failing any test they could devise.

My experience has been that type 4s usually have to make a concious effort to stop themselves wallowing in their emotions, if you don't have to do that then it implies you're probably not a type 4, IMO.

Yes. In fact, I often find myself criticizing people who wallow in their emotions as self-destructive and selfish, because their behavior makes others worry about them.

It can be, nobody does self-hatred quite like an unhealthy type 4.

Hmm... I don't really feel self-hatred. I do often feel guilty and self-critical, however. That usually just makes me want to improve, or at worst think of ways to protect other people from myself.

In the short term, but it's not an effective long-term strategy for happiness.

I wouldn't think so, but I don't think any of the enneagram types have effective long-term strategies for happiness unless they reach the point of being healthy.

Hoarding stuff. Self-preserving variants place a lot of significance on material security, so I'd expect them to be natural hoarders (unless they're counter-phobic, in which case they'll probably be overly generous).

Ah. I'm probably a Social variant. That could explain it.

Huh, I've read the enneagram institute descriptions, somehow managed to miss that though.

They change them occasionally. It might have been added since the last time you read.

Anyway, I think I've pretty much eliminated 4 as being anything but a wing, at best. Now I think I'm probably either 9 or 5.

 

[sassafras]

Have you looked into a 5w6 or a 6w5? A lot of the things that you describe for and against the type 9 correspond to a type 6. The type 5 might not be a far cry either; from a lot of your postings, I can tell you're a pretty cerebral individual.

Five with a Six-Wing

The traits of the Five and those of the Six-wing reinforce each other, combining to produce one ofthe most difficult of the personality types to contact intimately or to sustain a relationship with. Persons of this subtype have problems trusting others both because they are essentially Fives and because the Six-wig reinforces anxiety, making any kind of risk taking in relationships difficult. Hence, their interpersonal relations are erratic and, in general, are not an important part of their lives. Nothworthy examples of this subtype include Sigmund Freud, Simone Weil, James Joyce, Charles Darwin, Karl Marx, B. F. Skinner, Isaac Asimov, Ezra Pound, and Stephen Hawking.
Healthy people of this subtype are loyal and committed to their families and beliefs. They are extraordinarily hard workers, caring little for their own comfort and much more for their work and the fulfillment of theirduties. In them we find an intellectual playfulness, a good sense of humor, as well as other attractive, lovable qualitites. If others have been tested and permitted to come closer, they discover that people of this subtype have a deep capacity for friendship and commitment. There is also an endearing element in their desire to be accepted by others, and even if they are sometimes socially clumsy, others cannot help but be touched by their eagerness to reach out to people.
However, average persons of this subtype generally have problems with relationships. They do not seem to know what to do with their feelings,much less how to express them directly. Hence we find an insensitivity to their own feelings and emotional needs, as well as to the feelings and emotional needs of others. They have no awareness about how they communicate themselves to others. (They are the classical intellectual nerd, the socially inept oddball.) They are totally wrapped up with intellectual pursuits and live completely in their minds, immersing themselves in their work to the exclusion of everything else. When interpersonal conflicts arise, average Fives with a Six-wing avoid resolving problems by burying themselves even more deeply in their intellectual work and by employing passive-aggressive techniques, putting off people and problems rather than dealing wth them directly. They can be rebellious and argumentative for no apparent reason, although something may have touched off unconscious emotional associations.

Neurotics of this subtype have a tendency to be suspicious of others and extremely fearful of intimacy of any sort. The isolation and paranoia we see in unhealthy Fives are reinforced by the Six-wing's suspicion, inferiorty feelings, and conviction of being persecuted. We also find the tendency to overreact, and hence to act irrationally and in masochistic, self-defeating ways.

 

[arbygil]

My first inclination was 6 as well, very possibly 6w5 or 5w6. Sixes are NOT that bad. They have concerns, but a balanced 6 is a very intelligent, very stable individual who doesn't let his or her fears control them. Sixes typically have problems deciding on their type, and they *often* mistype. Also, it's very common for INFJs to be sixes.

 

[sassafras]

My first inclination was 6 as well, very possibly 6w5 or 5w6. Sixes are NOT that bad. They have concerns, but a balanced 6 is a very intelligent, very stable individual who doesn't let his or her fears control them. Sixes typically have problems deciding on their type, and they *often* mistype. Also, it's very common for INFJs to be sixes.

Sixes are usually pretty sexy too. Seriously.

 

[KazeCraven]

Sixes are NOT that bad.

Especially when you consider how ugly the other types can be. Heck, they're all pretty much equally bad.

 

[arbygil]

Especially when you consider how ugly the other types can be. Heck, they're all pretty much equally bad.

Heh. Anyone who's unhealthy is a nightmare. Really, really true.

But anyone who's healthy is a pleasure. The problem is, we're mostly all average and cycling between average and unhealthy.

 

[athenian200]

Thus type 5 sp's are actually hoarders of knowledge rather than of items. Though acts of generosity would not characterize them per se.

I actually wrote this once...

"I'm not scared of living with no possessions, sleeping in a room on the floor, even drinking water out of my hands, buying the cheapest food available and supplementing it with vitamins. The difference between living a bare existence in a walled room, even if it's nothing else, and living in the streets, is HUGE."

It was during an argument about what qualified as a "need."

Yes, but it does make it more likely (i.e. pieces fitting together to reveal the self).

Well, I would guess 5, because I sort of identify with it, and it seems to stick with me more consistently.

Could be an argument for a type 9, as self is undefined for them, though I think many people would feel the same perhaps?

My conclusion: also think 5w4.

Hmm... well, I'd say this narrows it 5 or 9. That's where I've got to focus now.

 

[athenian200]

Have you looked into a 5w6 or a 6w5? A lot of the things that you describe for and against the type 9 correspond to a type 6. The type 5 might not be a far cry either; from a lot of your postings, I can tell you're a pretty cerebral individual.

Yes. I probably should have looked at 6 more. I suppose I could just as easily be a 5w6 as a 5w4. I even think I'm a 6 at times, but not many people suggest that, and I'm not quite as focused on security as the description suggests.

My first inclination was 6 as well, very possibly 6w5 or 5w6. Sixes are NOT that bad. They have concerns, but a balanced 6 is a very intelligent, very stable individual who doesn't let his or her fears control them. Sixes typically have problems deciding on their type, and they *often* mistype. Also, it's very common for INFJs to be sixes.

Hmm... it's common for INFJs to be 6, and they often mistype?

I can sort of see that now. So now it's 9, 6, or 5. I think I've been stuck between these three types before.

Well, we may not get anywhere, but this was very interesting. Hopefully it helps someone refine their ideas, or something.

 

[arbygil]

Yes. I should have probably looked at 6 more. I suppose I could just as easily be a 5w6 as a 5w4. I even think I'm a 6 at times, but not many people suggest that, and I'm not quite as focused on security as the description suggests.

A lot of times people don't get the Enneagram Sixes, or they have seen the worst of an unhealthy one. An unhealthy Enneagram Six is a very fearsome individual with unhealthy tendencies.

Examples of healthy 6 traits: Strengths (healthy attributes)

 

[athenian200]

 

[DefectiveCreative]

Some people actually are missing something that other people have, though. People with learning disabilities like dyslexia or dyscalculia? People with blindness, deafness, etc? Sometimes that hole is really there. In fact, I think that almost everyone is missing something that most other people have, whether they know it or not... I think that's what makes people individuals.

I think perhaps that one of the main things that sets a type 4's "hole" apart from those examples is that a type 4's hole keeps "moving around".

We might think it's one thing ("If only I was smarter/more talented/more resilient/etc.") but even if we tackle that issue and actually become smarter/more talented/more resilient/etc. we still feel defective somehow, and so we think our problem really lies elsewhere ("If only I was better looking/richer/more sophisticated/etc.").

Also, it's very common for INFJs to be sixes.

Mind if I ask where/how you found that out (the most reliable study I've seen puts Fours, Ones and Fives as the most common types for INFJs)?

 

[Wyote]

I struggled between 5 and 9 for a while myself. Other people perceive me as a 5 until they get to know me. My family says I'm a 9 and it seems to fit me better. I still get 5 on tests sometimes though.