Western Women?

[Trifoilum]

http://www.topix.com/forum/business/online-dating/T05BKAV2C9UKNM5F5/p11

from...*ahem*, Percafe. It's basically a topic discussing how Western women is more..whiny/complaining/demanding/bitchy, and European/Asian women are more docile/feminine/submissive/gentle/caring. Expect the usual attacks towards feminism and how it's made women unattractive and blah.

But anyway, what do you think about its truth? Is this actual, distinctive cultural differences, or more of exoticism in play?

And another thing that I wondered; is this kind of thing also happening in homosexual relationship? Does Western gays seek Asian gays for its submissiveness, for instance, or other cases like Asian lesbian seeking Western lesbians due to their strength?

... You know, with the 'role' being ambiguous...it's somewhat confusing

 

[Faye]

I've encountered a lot of this type of hatred of American women (or westernized women), and my general appraisal of it is that, while it is not entirely unfounded, it comes from a cohort which tends to be conservative and sometimes homophobic, among other things.

They basically want a woman who will cook, clean, and take care of them and be submissive.

On one hand, I can value some conservatisms like actually eating dinner together or staying married, but there are also realities which work against the old family structures.

I don't think this is happening much in homosexual relationships Trifoilum. To me, it appears to be a traditional conservative trend.

 

[ontheroadtohope]

It may have to do with differences between more individualistic and more communal cultures. Although in that case European and American women should be seen in a similar light, with many Asians and Africans on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't know, just a thought.

 

[Korg]

( As a quick note, the OP's link should probably connect to the first page of that discussion, not the 11th. So click here to read the discussion from the beginning. ) I could write pages upon pages regarding this topic - and maybe I will at some point. But not now. For the moment, I will say that in my experience there's some validity to the perceptions written about there. But I want to point out a few things:

1) It's not just women - it's men and women. In America, both genders have become astonishingly unattractive and out-of-touch with their intrinsic human attractiveness. American culture has promoted so many ridiculous concepts about what men and women are as well as what we want from each other (all couched within entertainment-that-reflects-reality) that we've completely lost our natural polarity except on the most superficial levels (tits and ass / money and status) and, in fact, have toxified it to where we're now antagonistic towards each other. The fact Sex And The City was one of the most popular shows among women of all time tells you a lot. A whole lot. People actually think that shit is reality.


2) Anyone who says American women (and men) aren't overweight fatasses are living in denial or are just ignorant beyond any reasonable level. But you know what? I don't blame them. Again, I blame our culture which has reached almost criminal levels in what it promotes as "truth" regarding healthy dietary habits. It is now to the point where becoming overweight and at-risk for health problems related to being overweight are the default. You literally have to devote a period of time to educating yourself on what to eat, how to eat, where to buy it from, etc...if you don't want to eventually get fat and ill from your diet. It will happen if you don't educate yourself.

This is not an excuse but it is a reason - people simply do not know better. They are saturated in food industry propaganda to an extent that most can't even begin to fathom. Seriously - ask your typical American a basic food and/or health question and very few can tell you the right answer. As a country we have become illiterate in terms of diet and bodily upkeep. The result, as I said, is getting fat by default as well as aesthetically unappealing. And that's one of the least harmful of the results.


3) A capitalist economic system for the nation that has mutated into materialism as a personal philosophy. This is where I think the real damage has been done and most problems (such as the first two) can be traced back to this specific point. Again, I could write an entire paper on this but for now I'll say that many citizens have a personal philosophy which has been erected atop a fundamental premise that is fallacious. Namely, the conflating of successful human experience with the accrual of resources, "stuff", insignificant status and success. Social Democracy: look it up.


More later. Maybe.

 

[acd]

I don't relate to the "American woman" described in that post or the OP here.
I read the original post in that thread and he paints American women with one really broad brush stroke...

It's basically a few people on a forum stating their opinion and preferences based on their limited experiences.

 

[Gaze]

The American woman is a construction of modern society made to fit an unrealistic image which only seeks to diminish the unique and individual value of women, in order to promote a homogeneous image which fits the ideal and sells fashion, cosmetics, and other consumer products.

 

[Nixie]

I agree with most of Korg's post (shoot me now).
I also think that people in America really believe they have a well-developed culture to begin with, which isn't true. As a country/nation we are babies compared to the Japanese, British, and throw a lot of other countries in there too and to compare ourselves to them is asinine. We demand to run before we walk. We believe we are somehow unaffected by the youth of our country and have flair and grace as a nation. Our culture is at most adolescent and our priorities and how we live our life show it. Unifying a country as diverse as America will take plenty of time, which means the good news is that there is room to improve.

 

[Capt Charisma]

Generalizing = ignorant

 

[bamf]

Generalizing = ignorant

Did you just generalize about the term generalizing?!

 

[Capt Charisma]

Did you just generalize about the term generalizing?!

We have a winner!

 

[poshlost]

Some generalization is necessary in discussing sociological issues, but these generalizations better be relevant. The western European woman is historically much more liberated and independent than the American woman.
Throughout the past century, Western Europe (especially France) has been the refuge for Americans seeking to run away from puritan America.

Of course the situation has gradually changed since the 60s, especially for woman, but western Europe is still ahead. Women from eastern Europe and Asia do tend to be more submissive.

 

[magister343]

I recall hearing some Asian guys I knew a few years ago saying that Asian women (especially older ones) are much more domineering than American women, but they tend to be passive-aggressive rather than overt about it. They claimed that white women talk the most about liberation in public but in private are the easiest to manipulate and control.

 

[Trifoilum]

It may have to do with differences between more individualistic and more communal cultures. Although in that case European and American women should be seen in a similar light, with many Asians and Africans on the other end of the spectrum.

I don't know, just a thought.

I think what they're talking is in the sense of European = Anywhere except Western European (French, British..); I got an impression that people from other parts of the Europe tend to have less...individualistic, or at least more willing to stay at home.

And thank you for reminding me. Africans are really.....forgotten in this debate. And Middle-Eastern people. What does that say about me, or those people? :|

I recall hearing some Asian guys I knew a few years ago saying that Asian women (especially older ones) are much more domineering than American women, but they tend to be passive-aggressive rather than overt about it. They claimed that white women talk the most about liberation in public but in private are the easiest to manipulate and control.

As an Asian, I completely agreed with the former part. Women have the most control in house -and- family. If not the wife, then the mother. At least the older generations. And yes, we tend to use more 'graceful' (read: indirect) ways to be overt (such a brutish act!)

But I don't know about the latter part. Why do you think they are the easiest to manipulate and control?

And I agreed with Korg's post. It's not as much a problem with gender, rather than culture.

 

[88chaz88]

I've always said that ever since we were given an equl society, the majority of women have tried to emulate men's behaviour, but only the worst of it.

I've also said that we should take back the vote because they obviously don't know what to do with it.

 

[jimtaylor]

I've always said that ever since we were given an equl society, the majority of women have tried to emulate men's behaviour, but only the worst of it.

I've also said that we should take back the vote because they obviously don't know what to do with it.

Come on, don't solve a generalization with another generalization. There are some women who have with the freedom abused it just as men do. If you are going to take away women's right to vote, then you should take away men's because they make up half the population so they make at least half the mistakes when it comes to voting as well.

Now I do agree with the fact that some women; not the majority, have taken on the worse characteristics of men. I know some who feel it is their right to cheat and play men because some men do it. The problem is they don't understand, two wrongs don't make a right. The biggest problem I see is that some women blame every problem in their life on men. They think men cause every issue and then begin to hate men. I also see a lot of teachers now a days that favor their gender and considering that nearly 75% of K-12 teachers are female that leaves a lot of young boys feeling like they are being discriminated against. Basically some women have overcompensated with their freedom and are now being more sexist than any man. This minority of women which tend to be the most vocal and in your face give a bad image for American woman as a whole. They need to stop blaming men and everybody else and realize they have as much opportunity if not more than anybody else. In many companies and education systems, they have women's advantage programs but if men where to form one it would be sexist. There are many more scholarships and opportunities for women, but any that is formed for just men is considered sexist. It is because those minority of women who are outspoken can be the most sexist of all. They want the added opportunities but they don't want men to be equal, they want them to be subservient to them.

The best thing would to create %100 equality. No laws or rules that benefit any gender, race or ethnicity. You have to employ, allow entry, of the most qualified person. Period no exceptions to race, religion, gender, ethnicity, etc..

 

[MindYourHead]

Since I haven't had any real relationship exposure to Women from other countries, I can't really comment other than to say I think that OP is exaggerating to make his point.

Anyone who says American women (and men) aren't overweight fatasses are living in denial or are just ignorant beyond any reasonable level. But you know what? I don't blame them. Again, I blame our culture which has reached almost criminal levels in what it promotes as "truth" regarding healthy dietary habits. It is now to the point where becoming overweight and at-risk for health problems related to being overweight are the default. You literally have to devote a period of time to educating yourself on what to eat, how to eat, where to buy it from, etc...if you don't want to eventually get fat and ill from your diet. It will happen if you don't educate yourself.

This is not an excuse but it is a reason - people simply do not know better. They are saturated in food industry propaganda to an extent that most can't even begin to fathom. Seriously - ask your typical American a basic food and/or health question and very few can tell you the right answer. As a country we have become illiterate in terms of diet and bodily upkeep. The result, as I said, is getting fat by default as well as aesthetically unappealing. And that's one of the least harmful of the results.

It's gotten to the point where what people think is normal and healthy has gotten scewed.
My 21 year old Son a few weeks ago was complaining that he is too skinny, and despite working out he isn't putting on weight.
The thing is, he is physically exactly how a 21 year old male should be, and most were including myself back when I was 21. (1982)
We pointed out that most everyone else in his age group is overweight. He is really the normal one.
It's crazy.
Wasn't my intent to go off topic. But I had to mention it.

 

[detectivepope]

From experience I find western women more shallow and expect very superficial or unrealistic things based on ideals that are sold. There are alot of women that break this trend and I have found in experience, are travelled or divide the portrayal of life to actual experience. The opposite to this is that alot of none western women expect little in their partner causing alot of bad relationships that never break. The main reason for this is the over commercial way of life America has got itself into and sheer mistrust of other humans.

 

[Trifoilum]

Since I haven't had any real relationship exposure to Women from other countries, I can't really comment other than to say I think that OP is exaggerating to make his point.

Me?
Well....I might be, or was exaggerating to make my point. But I'm also stating the view of some people that seems to be well set in that idea.

The best thing would to create %100 equality. No laws or rules that benefit any gender, race or ethnicity. You have to employ, allow entry, of the most qualified person. Period no exceptions to race, religion, gender, ethnicity, etc..

Agreed.

Now I do agree with the fact that some women; not the majority, have taken on the worse characteristics of men. I know some who feel it is their right to cheat and play men because some men do it. The problem is they don't understand, two wrongs don't make a right.

Yeah; when women use the rationalization "But men has always the social advantage of being a jerk blablabla SO WHY CAN'T I?", I (probably disrespectfully) chalk it as the ugly, often disfigured mixture of feminism and misconception and personal grudge.

Looking on slightly a different perspective, they're probably fighting for the right to be a jerk there.

Which is, oi.

 

[Candice_XX]

You know what, I remembered something I have read in a book for weird stories from the war: Lot of American soldiers after the WWII came back to the USA with Japanese wives. They were doing pretty well but according to a research made after 20 years most of them had divorced!!! The researcher said that there was one important factor: the Japanese women learnt the language properly and they were engaged into the american culture.
I found that funny that's why I remember it.


Well, let me tell you the other way round experience: I never had a relationship with a western guy, but I have met some U.S.A. boys and had conversations with them. They were going after "shallow" women, the kind of girls I was watching in american teen movies and mtv and I hadn't realise that they do exist. They are rejecting, maybe unintentionally, a more "feminine" behavour because it is not convenient for them: they really do want to date a lot of women at the same time. Then, they are complaining for american women.
I think they are scizophrenics.
Really, I can not blame any american woman, their guys and television drive them crazy.

At least, I speak for the guys I have met, maybe the whole population is not like this. They were at their 20s.
...And then they like non-american women, because the fact that they are nice is excusable because it is part of their culture. I trace the problem in that, while american values are great, they are not really applied in practice.

And I have met one guy who was ultra conservative, he would want an american virgin to marry, but I think he wouldn't really care if they would divorce (as long as nobody would learn about).

I am sorry if I offended anyone with what I wrote... It' s just what I experienced...

 

[Peppermint]

I would not say that Eastern Women are inherently more submissive. It's more of a combination of having it beaten into them (it is a socially accepted way of disciplining your wife) and a willingness to expose themselves to such treatment due to the general desperation resulting from a lifetime of poverty and a lack of opportunities.