We have a government agency devoted to groping old women and babies.

Chessie

Chessie

Community Member
MBTI
INfJ
Go over this with me again. Did we cross a line somewhere when security became important enough to let children be molested to get it?
 
Those are very strong words. How literal are you being? I have no doubt that there are certain groups of kids, including those for whom travel is a more complex matter, for whom security checks might be more stressful. However, I find it hard to believe that children, in general, are getting inappropriately patted down at airports. I know adults are, but I have a difficult time imagining the same about kids (teens not necessarily included) without hearing first-hand testaments. Call me naive, but yeah.
 
Considering the cost, this security system is roughly on par with attempting to stop all of the annual lightning strike related deaths and damage by requiring everyone to get checked for metal objects before going outside during thunderstorms.

The idea is to reduce all risk to zero. It's the same philosophy governing American schools. Functionally, if negligence can be found then it must be rooted out even if it is negligence as mild as 'I was tired that day'. If blame can be placed, it must be placed.

America has a mental illness I would loosely classify as obsessive compulsive schizophrenic hypo-sexual Mary Whitehouse Syndrome. It's so pervasive that most people are unaware of it until they look at precisely how far the encroachment has come.
 
Chessie said:
Considering the cost, this security system is roughly on par with attempting to stop all of the annual lightning strike related deaths and damage by requiring everyone to get checked for metal objects before going outside during thunderstorms.

The idea is to reduce all risk to zero. It's the same philosophy governing American schools. Functionally, if negligence can be found then it must be rooted out even if it is negligence as mild as 'I was tired that day'. If blame can be placed, it must be placed.

America has a mental illness I would loosely classify as obsessive compulsive schizophrenic hypo-sexual Mary Whitehouse Syndrome. It's so pervasive that most people are unaware of it until they look at precisely how far the encroachment has come.
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This is not to suggest I am in agreement with the current system, however, there are social, economic, and political implications around national security measures (particularly should these measures fail), which is something that cannot be said about deaths related to lightening or other such examples. Thus, I'd say that the value of the cost of the former is not on par with that of the latter.

Anyway, what would you propose as an alternative(s)?
 
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WARNING: This post isn't very nice.

I am sick of this security argument, and I am going to be blunt and uncaring with this opinion, because I am sick and tired of people complaining across the board (p.s. I am not saying this to anyone in particular, I just use "you" for ease of speaking).

SUCK IT UP! For fucks sake suck it up. I don't give a damn if you need to be patted down for security reasons, or you need a full body scan. Neither of these things are an invasion of privacy even in the slightest. This is done for security reasons, and nothing more. Are you seriously this concerned that some guy in security is going to oggle you on a very grainy image, or make fun of you? Or do you really think the guy or girl who has to pat you down is getting turned on or even enjoying doing that? Get off your fucking ego trip, you are not that important. Like you don't get looked at like an object every day as it is without you knowing? It makes no difference.

If it were up to me, I think that people who refuse both of the security screenings should be turned away from the airport without a penny refunded. It's pathetic really that people see this as some big government invasion privacy. The second anyone hears the word government they automatically think that it's evil and corrupt. Do you really think the government over all doesn't have our best interests at heart? No? Well the get the fuck out of my face and go live in la la land with your hippy waste of life lazy twats. I am tired of people being unreasonable with all of this.

I have absoultely no problem at all with the full body scanner. Personally I am unconfortable with the intense patdowns, but you know what? That's life, tough cookies. I will make due because it is what needs to be done. It would not be done if it was not thought to be nesscarry.

Suck it up. If you don't like it, shut up and don't involve yourself with it. If you have to fly, then learn to live with it, or find another job.
 
We have an incredibly long history in this country of what they call 'terrorist actions'. I mean, the World Trade Center is not even the one with the most number of dead. It was one of the mild ones in fact. The most devastating have been caused by Americans and all too often, by our own government.

During the 1860's, a well organized Klu Klux Klan killed nearly 3000 Freedmen in the South and re-established segregation using terrorist tactics we're all too familiar with.

Security is not our problem here. We created a situation where 'security' was necessary by systematically alienating, abusing, violating, murdering, invading and starving our way all over the planet since the inception of this country. Nobody has had the resources to step on us until the last few years.

The single greatest act of terrorism in human history, the dropping of the Atomic bomb, was perpetrated by Americans.

I shant rant terribly much longer but I have lately begun to find all of this talk of 'freedom' to be extremely tiresome. Freedom is a foreign concept to most Americans. It's freedom to walk around without clothes. It's freedom to sit back with a lit joint and a big'ol needle full of heroine and grin to yourself.

It's freedom to get your co-workers together and demand your boss make sure you've got a gas mask when you've got to climb down a coal pit. Freedom is being able to sell your body if you're broke or just because you enjoy it and buy company for an evening if you're lonely. It's freedom to kill yourself if it hurts.

Freedom is not the freedom of choice that Wal-mart gives you. Freedom is not the freedom insurance companies give you. It's not the freedom that the Tea Party or libertarians would like to thrust on everyone which is freedom from civilizing influence. Freedom is not the pleasant lies of religion or puritanical devotion to a specific morality. Freedom is not a thing you pay your government for every time you make a purchase.

Anyone who said freedom is not free was deluded. Freedom is only freedom if it's free. If it costs a hand down your pants every time you want to cross the country, you are not free.
 
IndigoSensor said:
Are you seriously this concerned that some guy in security is going to oggle you on a very grainy image, or make fun of you?
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Those "grainy" images are evidently detailed enough to prompt ridicule. It's not so reassuring to know that, despite prior insistence to the contrary, certain body scanners have stored the images.


If it were up to me, I think that people who refuse both of the security screenings should be turned away from the airport without a penny refunded.
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That's somewhat more lenient than what the TSA has in mind.
 
TheLastMohican said:
Those "grainy" images are evidently detailed enough to prompt ridicule. It's not so reassuring to know that, despite prior insistence to the contrary, certain body scanners have stored the images.
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The media is just making a mountain out of molehills. It was an isolated incident, and honestly I was expecting that to happen at some point. It's unfortonate, but now that this has happened a standard can be set for dealing with staff who break ettiquite with these matter, and propmtly demote or fire them.

That's somewhat more lenient than what the TSA has in mind.
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Now this is new to me, and this is definitely too extreme. Turn away without a refund and possibly interview the person before they leave for refusal, but don't fine them. It's their responsibillity to know what is to be expected when they get there, but that's pushing it.
 
There is a certain sickness to the idea that you either finish getting groped or you go to jail. I mean, the 4th Amendment exists to pretty much preclude all of this. Still, if you were to enforce the Constitution as written you'd end up with some severe inconveniences. Trademark and Copyright law would go pretty much out the window.
 
Chessie said:
We have an incredibly long history in this country of what they call 'terrorist actions'. I mean, the World Trade Center is not even the one with the most number of dead. It was one of the mild ones in fact. The most devastating have been caused by Americans and all too often, by our own government.

During the 1860's, a well organized Klu Klux Klan killed nearly 3000 Freedmen in the South and re-established segregation using terrorist tactics we're all too familiar with.

Security is not our problem here. We created a situation where 'security' was necessary by systematically alienating, abusing, violating, murdering, invading and starving our way all over the planet since the inception of this country. Nobody has had the resources to step on us until the last few years.

The single greatest act of terrorism in human history, the dropping of the Atomic bomb, was perpetrated by Americans.

I shant rant terribly much longer but I have lately begun to find all of this talk of 'freedom' to be extremely tiresome. Freedom is a foreign concept to most Americans. It's freedom to walk around without clothes. It's freedom to sit back with a lit joint and a big'ol needle full of heroine and grin to yourself.

It's freedom to get your co-workers together and demand your boss make sure you've got a gas mask when you've got to climb down a coal pit. Freedom is being able to sell your body if you're broke or just because you enjoy it and buy company for an evening if you're lonely. It's freedom to kill yourself if it hurts.

Freedom is not the freedom of choice that Wal-mart gives you. Freedom is not the freedom insurance companies give you. It's not the freedom that the Tea Party or libertarians would like to thrust on everyone which is freedom from civilizing influence. Freedom is not the pleasant lies of religion or puritanical devotion to a specific morality. Freedom is not a thing you pay your government for every time you make a purchase.

Anyone who said freedom is not free was deluded. Freedom is only freedom if it's free. If it costs a hand down your pants every time you want to cross the country, you are not free.
Click to expand...

Freedom is the ability to shoot anyone I want, freedom is the ability to take what I want when I want and nobody telling me otherwise.

oh.... wait that's anarchy
 
Chessie said:
We have an incredibly long history in this country of what they call 'terrorist actions'. I mean, the World Trade Center is not even the one with the most number of dead. It was one of the mild ones in fact. The most devastating have been caused by Americans and all too often, by our own government.

During the 1860's, a well organized Klu Klux Klan killed nearly 3000 Freedmen in the South and re-established segregation using terrorist tactics we're all too familiar with.

Security is not our problem here. We created a situation where 'security' was necessary by systematically alienating, abusing, violating, murdering, invading and starving our way all over the planet since the inception of this country. Nobody has had the resources to step on us until the last few years.

The single greatest act of terrorism in human history, the dropping of the Atomic bomb, was perpetrated by Americans.
Click to expand...

"Security is not the problem."
Well, no. Threats to security are the problem. Security concerns obviously stem from larger issues, some of which originate quite far back in history. However, what has been done cannot be undone and the results are what the government/public grapples with and attempts to maintain under "control" both for citizen safety as well as political/economic/social stability. To this aim, whether or not the US has brought its problems on itself is besides the point.

I shant rant terribly much longer but I have lately begun to find all of this talk of 'freedom' to be extremely tiresome. Freedom is a foreign concept to most Americans. It's freedom to walk around without clothes. It's freedom to sit back with a lit joint and a big'ol needle full of heroine and grin to yourself.

It's freedom to get your co-workers together and demand your boss make sure you've got a gas mask when you've got to climb down a coal pit. Freedom is being able to sell your body if you're broke or just because you enjoy it and buy company for an evening if you're lonely. It's freedom to kill yourself if it hurts.

Freedom is not the freedom of choice that Wal-mart gives you. Freedom is not the freedom insurance companies give you. It's not the freedom that the Tea Party or libertarians would like to thrust on everyone which is freedom from civilizing influence. Freedom is not the pleasant lies of religion or puritanical devotion to a specific morality. Freedom is not a thing you pay your government for every time you make a purchase.

Anyone who said freedom is not free was deluded. Freedom is only freedom if it's free. If it costs a hand down your pants every time you want to cross the country, you are not free.
Click to expand...
Indeed, that is not freedom. However, it doesn't (cost a hand down one's pants...); that's a gross over-generalization. Few people ever experience this degree of violation by the TSA, and even among those who have (or will), it does not take place every time.
 
on the other hand, this particular line really bothers me

No one will be forcibly searched or arrested "just because they refuse to go through the security procedures," Barbera said. "That may rise to the level of suspicious behavior for the TSA, but it wouldn't rise to the level of suspicious behavior for a deputy," she said.
Click to expand...
 
Barnabas said:
Freedom is the ability to shoot anyone I want, freedom is the ability to take what I want when I want and nobody telling me otherwise.

oh.... wait that's anarchy
Click to expand...

I'm not an anarchist and that isn't freedom. That is in violation of the social contract and that is not a functioning method for the operation of a human collective of any kind.

Granted, the freedom to take what you want and shoot anyone you want would seem to be granted to most police officers, government officials, government offices, and military establishments in this country almost without fear of reprisal.
 
I haven't followed these stories closely, although I have the impression they're exploding all over the nation. I can understand why this is annoying, but personally I'm glad people are speaking out only because the system does need tweaking and this might be the only way (or one of) to really place pressure on it. It's frustrating that it has to come to this, and I share the sentiment that some people have overreacted but I don't think everyone (who files complaints or shares their story publicly) has.
 
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