We have a government agency devoted to groping old women and babies.

[TheLastMohican]

Hi The Last Mohican

Thanks for the info. Microwaves are still radiation though right? I don't wanna be zapped by either!

Yes, it's all on the same spectrum, but wavelength does make a difference. X-rays are known to cause cancer, but the same is not known of microwaves. Furthermore, the microwaves emitted from the scanners cannot penetrate the skin.

In any case, the TSA claims that the doses of radiation are extremely small, equivalent to a mere minute or so received while in flight on the plane (due to altitude).

 

[Praefect]

Somehow I don't see myself as being the one uncomfortable at a pat down.

Think it would be considered sexual assault if I wore a kilt?

 

[muir]

TLM

Good to know.....its worth remembering that our government told us for a long time that tobacco did not cause cancer

Praefect

Do you mind me asking...are you Scottish?

 

[just me]

"This is not a harmless security option. This is one more encroachment in a long list of encroachments which are eroding our freedoms:"

This is but a small vision of our many weaknesses for fruitcakes to kill us. Damned if we do and damned if we don't. I could, but will not so don't ask, list a number of weaknesses the world has that need going over. We are in a learning period. One person could wreak havoc on the world you live in given the backing needed. Be thankful certain people do not wish to mass murder people.

Our freedoms, indeed, are being taken away from us bit by bit but someone has to figure out what to do about the idiots trying to kill people out there. Like it or not, you are enemies of others in the world and they want to kill you and destroy your economies any way they can.

Want to hear something scary? They may very well push us to the brink of trying to destroy them and those that support them.....any way we can. Look down the road at this and what it is coming to.

 

[Praefect]

Praefect

Do you mind me asking...are you Scottish?

No. Just easily amused.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Hi The Last Mohican

Thanks for the info. Microwaves are still radiation though right? I don't wanna be zapped by either!

Microwaves are harmless, more harmless the UV rays, more harmless then visible light, even more harmless then infared rays. It won't do a thing to you.

 

[muir]

Praefect

Aaaaweeel never mind laddie!

Just me

I have a different perspective of who my 'enemies' are to you

The man on the street in Iran or Iraq or N.Korea is not my enemy. It is not them that will make me:

Work longer hours for less pay
Work to a later retirement age
Have less holiday time
Rip me off over my mortgage
Steal my pension
Cut public services
Privatise services and then pricing me out of them except with exthortionate insurance
Tax me more
Raise food, fuel and energy costs
Cause inflation
Lie to me
Send me to war under false pretexts
Hand over public wealth to the bankers

No the people who do all that and much much more are the financial elites and the corrupt politicians who act as their public face (they sell these ideas to the public with a shit-eating grin on their face)

The man on the street in Iran, Iraq and N.Korea is getting screwed by the global elites just the same as me

Also we have managed fine without these scanners.....when was the last time a plane was destroyed by bomb? So why do we suddenly need them?(many believe that the CIA were responsible for the lockerbie panam flight....that would explain why Meghrahi was released....well that and the fact that we wanted to start trading with Libya again for its oil....forgetting of course that it is a 'terrorist state')

I think also we need to be wary of false flag operations designed to spread fear in the public eg jumped up stories about foiled bomb plots

I am less scared of 'terrorists' than I am of my own governments daily encroachments on my freedom

 

[muir]

Hi Indigo

I just googled microwaves:

An article said about microwave ovens that they give off a magnetic field when in use. There are studies that say that that is harmful to DNA material and there are studies that say that it isn't

Here's a passage from the following web page http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/mwdanger.html :

Yet, the question remains: Is exposure to low levels of microwave radiation dangerous to humans? Soviet research has yielded some rather unsettling reports. Rather than concentrating on the effects of high-intensity levels, scientists in the U.S.S.R have focused their efforts on the effects of prolonged or repeated exposure to low levels of microwaves. Their studies show that long-term exposure to low levels of microwave energy could result in unpleasant effects that are not attributable to the thermal (heating) effect alone. So, the U.S.S.R and other European countries have set their own strict guidelines for microwave safety, concluding that Western safety standards are simply not safe. For instance, Russian workers are required to wear special goggles any time they are temporarily exposed to a microwave radiation level of 1 milliwatt per square centimeter. Remember, the U.S. Federal Standard is 5 milliwatts per square centimeter. (It should be noted that some manufacturers have voluntarily established their own, more stringent, standards. For example, Amana, Menumaster, Caloric, Modern Maid, and Sharp have lowered the maximum allowable leakage from 5 mw/cm 2 to 4 mw/cm 2 .)

I don't know how much of a magnetic field a whole body scan would create......is it worth gambling?

I know its a personal choice, but i would go for the pat down everytime

 

[just me]

To put it bluntly, they are not my enemies. Those things you listed and oppose: you should get involved and try to help make things right the way they should be. I hope you are not the type that sits back and accuses without action to help. If you don't like the way things are and do not wish to try and help things get better, maybe you should leave or just deal with it. Those are the choices. I am serious here; people can change the way things are if they would just get off their butts long enough to try.

Those that try to kill me have chosen me as their enemy. The moment they try to kill me they become my enemy, and fair game if my life is being threatened at the moment. I do not choose enemies.

All this talk of CIA being responsible for all this amuses me. Oliver North, when questioned of his cameras and security measures, told our government Bin Laden had threatened him and he was a very dangerous man. That was many moons before 9-11.

I do not fear our government; I fear our populace that votes to be voting and does not many of them have a clue what they are voting for rather than exercizing their right to vote. It is the people that can stop our government from abusing us. That is the way this government works, but they must be proactive and walk the line. BTW: you didn't mention the country that has had more to do with your list than you would think. edit to say this is a friendly exchange of thoughts and not meant to be otherwise...

 

[muir]

Just Me

There is a lot of civil unrest in my country at the moment and a lot of exchange of ideas as people are beginning to question why things are happening because they are feeling the economic pressure

The media tells us the whats and where's but not the whys!

One interesting idea i have heard bizarrely came from a French footballer called Eric Cantona:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9BiOUJYPsI"]YouTube - Eric Cantona's call for bank protest "KILL THE BANKS"

 

[Chessie]

God, invisible, I will pay you to learn to use paragraphs.

 

[just me]

"I share your concerns about how uninformed the electorate is. I believe that an informed electorate is the corner stone of any democracy. However i believe that the government is engineering ignorance to keep the electorate ill informed and compliant. The media dumbing down and spreading missinformation is another aspect of this process"

I have found most of the electorate to have their hand out and to be lazy, caring very little for what goes on around them.

 

[muir]

Hi Just Me sorry for the delay

From what i see around me most people are getting along with things, going to work, doing an honest days work, paying their taxes and generally behaving themselves

I think people are cooperative, social animals by nature and although the current ideology is one of competition people are still working together everywhere! I think most people just want to do an honest days work for an honest return.

The government has aided the bankers in draining the public purse and buying up public utilities. All the money is going upwards into a smaller and smaller number of hands leaving debt and poverty in its wake.

People are waking upto this though and cracks are beginning to appear in the false perception that the government are working for the people.

The internet is playing a part in this awakening of the public and i think the pressure is now on the power elites to really push forward their agenda.

We are going to see a real struggle between those that are making their living from their labour or government welfare (the working class) and those that make their living from investments (the capitalist class)

The danger is though that the power elites will take us to war. Warfare is often a good way to distract the people, get them waving flags and working for the power elites again and to take the wind out of the sails of popular revolt. It is also seen by some as a way to boost the economy.

I think that debt is used as a method of control and i think that the grab of wealth by the elite is a precursor to further global integration....we are seeing it all the time

The dollar is struggling, the euro is struggling and people in power can be heard saying this is a time of opportunity.....a time to affect change. I think what the public have to do is be willing to ensure by whatever means that whatever change does come it is in the interests of the many and not the few

 

[IndigoSensor]

Hi Indigo

I just googled microwaves:

An article said about microwave ovens that they give off a magnetic field when in use. There are studies that say that that is harmful to DNA material and there are studies that say that it isn't

Here's a passage from the following web page http://www.gallawa.com/microtech/mwdanger.html :

Yet, the question remains: Is exposure to low levels of microwave radiation dangerous to humans? Soviet research has yielded some rather unsettling reports. Rather than concentrating on the effects of high-intensity levels, scientists in the U.S.S.R have focused their efforts on the effects of prolonged or repeated exposure to low levels of microwaves. Their studies show that long-term exposure to low levels of microwave energy could result in unpleasant effects that are not attributable to the thermal (heating) effect alone. So, the U.S.S.R and other European countries have set their own strict guidelines for microwave safety, concluding that Western safety standards are simply not safe. For instance, Russian workers are required to wear special goggles any time they are temporarily exposed to a microwave radiation level of 1 milliwatt per square centimeter. Remember, the U.S. Federal Standard is 5 milliwatts per square centimeter. (It should be noted that some manufacturers have voluntarily established their own, more stringent, standards. For example, Amana, Menumaster, Caloric, Modern Maid, and Sharp have lowered the maximum allowable leakage from 5 mw/cm 2 to 4 mw/cm 2 .)

I don't know how much of a magnetic field a whole body scan would create......is it worth gambling?

I know its a personal choice, but i would go for the pat down everytime

I don't really know how else to put this without it coming across as rude, so please don't take it that way, but you really don't understand science. Microwaves nor magnetic fields cause serious problems with living organisms. Molecularrly they can not cause "damage", and could only possibly cause minor shifts in electronics states which does little to nothing. The studies that actually are done on them either show nor corralation, or ones so weak that it's barely publishable. Thus the ideas that microwaves at the levels in those scanners, nor low level magnetic fields cause damage, has an extremely weak base.

In short, yes it's worth gambaling, because there is nothing to gamble in the first place.

 

[muir]

Indigo

My knowledge of science is basic its true.....but thats good its making me look up info on the internet!

However it is telling that on a number of products Europe has stricter controls than the US including the recommended exposure to microwaves. By that I mean I believe that the US government plays a little more fast and loose with their populations health than the EU does.

If i was living in the US i wouldn't go on government recommendations because there are economic forces which exert pressure and these have a distorting effect on public policy. An example of this is the fact that Russia actually banned microwave ovens after conducting extensive tests on them. They only brought them back after Perestroika but lets face it that is due to commercial pressures as Russia made a transition to capitalist consumption....where profits matter more than the publics health

Everytime i have googled the words: microwaves are dangerous or similar combinations i keep reading really nasty stories about microwaves.....are you sure they are harmless?

I want to see the president go through one....or do you think he gets a special pass?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Everytime i have googled the words: microwaves are dangerous or similar combinations i keep reading really nasty stories about microwaves.

And you trust that? I don't.

are you sure they are harmless?

in the vast (i'm talking >99%) majority of cases, yes.

 

[basic]

Please listen to the No Agenda show. If you subscribe conspiracy theories, etc, or are just an independent thinker, take a listen! It's not for everyone, and you should take it with a grain of salt, but I think it's worth my time.

 

[muir]

Yeah to be honest i do trust it

The reason is that those sources don't have a reason to lie to me, whereas the US government has.

If i go for the pat down i stand to lose nothing except maybe the window seat on the plane cos someone got through the checks quicker than me

But if I go for the scanner and they are right then i could potentially contract cancer

What will be interesting is what precautions will those operating the scanners take? Will they be exposed to regular doses of radiation. Give it 5-10 years we might have the first lawsuit where an airport employee sues the government for telling them that they didn't need to wear lead lined underpants and now they can't have children....or something like that!

So you would opt for the scanner?

 

[muir]

Thanks Basic will check it out!

 

[IndigoSensor]

Yeah to be honest i do trust it

The reason is that those sources don't have a reason to lie to me, whereas the US government has.

Actually, people don't always need reasons to lie, further I actually trust the government to be truthful enough. Also, people might not be lying, but at the same time they might be going off conspiricy theories, false/baseless scientific studies or just bad science in general. That's why I don't trust those types of things until I see scientific papers. Again I do not believe them to be harmful. You actually get a much stronger radiation dose just from flying in an airplane due to minimized atmospheric shielding, do that is riskier then a trivial scanner. You'd be surprised how many things are "radioactive". You might as well live in a bubble if you subscribe to the views of these bad studies.

But if I go for the scanner and they are right then i could potentially contract cancer

As I said above, the scanners aren't dangerous. Radiation has been studied for a century, it's very well understood, and there are very strict medical standards that must be adheared to in order for something to be legal. The scanners fit that, they wouldn't be allowed if they had a major risk.

What will be interesting is what precautions will those operating the scanners take? Will they be exposed to regular doses of radiation. Give it 5-10 years we might have the first lawsuit where an airport employee sues the government for telling them that they didn't need to wear lead lined underpants and now they can't have children....or something like that!

So you would opt for the scanner?

I'd laugh at those lawsuits. So many people will due anything to sue. I am sure you could possibly link cancer to the scanners if it were to happen, but those people likely had a very major biological risk associated with it. The thing with cancer is they often say things cause it. That's a verbal misnomer. There are risk factors for cancer, and this might be one of them (and as I said before it is very very very small). Also who's to say you didn't get cancer from flying too many planes? That can and does happen. As I said before you get a decent radation dose just from going higher in altitude, even then it's very very rare. Radiation is not this super dangerous thing that everyone perceives it to be in particular in day to day encounters. It just has a bad rap, because it can be dangerous in very extreme and rare cases.