Vote (or not)

[kinglear]

I vote in all elections I'm elgible for because it is a prevlidge to vote.

a 'privilege' to vote?

as opposed to what? A dictator telling you what to do?

Its not your privilege, it's your right as a member of a community to have a say. Your right is also enshrined in your constitution which your ancestors fought to institute

Sure you can criticise aspects of the constitution from a modern perspective but you have to see it within the context of its time within which it was very forward looking. It basically sought to protect the rights of the individual against the controlling dicatatorship of big government. Of course big government did take over america by creating a central bank and an income tax system and a spy network set up to spy on american citizens etc but in theory you can still claim your rights

 

[JennyDaniella]

Oh you...

Now seriously... I think if more people voted and were involved in the process we would have saner or more moderate politicans... Because they would have to appeal to both sides. I think it's a great idea for everyone to be informed and involved and voting. I don't expect some sort of utopian society. I do expect that citizens and their interests will be represented by those they elect.

This this this!

 

[kinglear]

This this this!

it doesn't make sense that more people voting would equal more moderate politicians because you only get to vote on what is offered to you

so what you need to change is what options you have not how many people vote for the same limited and corrupt options

make sense?

 

[kinglear]

big money dictates who gets to run in the US

so lets say big money pushes forward two candidates

one is called 'hitler' and the other is called 'mao'

it doesn't matter whether 1000 of you vote in that election or if 100,000,000 of you vote, you still have the same crappy choice that is going to lead to trouble for society either way

it's lose/lose for you and win/win for big money

 

[Sandie33]

a 'privilege' to vote?

as opposed to what? A dictator telling you what to do?

Its not your privilege, it's your right as a member of a community to have a say. Your right is also enshrined in your constitution which your ancestors fought to institute

Sure you can criticise aspects of the constitution from a modern perspective but you have to see it within the context of its time within which it was very forward looking. It basically sought to protect the rights of the individual against the controlling dicatatorship of big government. Of course big government did take over america by creating a central bank and an income tax system and a spy network set up to spy on american citizens etc but in theory you can still claim your rights

Incorrect Mod

 

[Rowan Tree]

big money dictates who gets to run in the US

Good point, let's abolish big money.

 

[kinglear]

Incorrect Mod

what do you mean?

 

[kinglear]

Good point, let's abolish big money.

yeah i used to be you

I was in a socialist party, i was a trade unionist, I was reading new left literature and then i learned that big money is steering the left or at least what is presented as 'the left' by the corporate media that big money owns and controls

now i view the world in a more nuanced and less absolutist way

 

[Sandie33]

what do you mean?

Unrequitted Response.

 

[kinglear]

Unrequitted Response.

what part is not returned in kind?

ie which part of what i said do you not agree with?

 

[kinglear]

if we take this definition of the word 'privilege':

: a right or immunity granted as a peculiar benefit, advantage, or favor : prerogative
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/privilege

that assumes that your right to have a say is granted to you as a 'favor' by some sort of authority but the point is that you, the citizenry, grant the government the right to make decisions as a favor

not the other way around

one mindset has you as a passive and lesser being who is subservient to government while the other mindset sees government as a creation that is supposed to serve the people

 

[Rowan Tree]

Back to the subject, how do people feel about extending democracy to other arenas? I believe democracy needs to be promoted in every aspect of life—in the workplace, in education, in families. For all the problems of representative democracy, there's always the civic exuberance during elections—even from the highly anti-political, there's a sense of relish for engaging with questions about the shape and running of society. For me, democracy is not even a type of governance, it's the very thing that disrupts governance from below.

now i view the world in a more nuanced and less absolutist way

You should do a masterclass on trolling.

 

[kinglear]

You should do a masterclass on trolling.

I think that's very unfair.

Just because i have a differing opinion to you does not mean i am a troll

yes i like to speak about punchy subjects and i don't shy away from turning over rocks to see what's underneath but that doesn't make me a troll

Also perhaps you could consider the role of the INFJ in society. Perhaps INFJ's are supposed to act as catalysts sometimes and perhaps that process sometimes involves challenging conventional wisdom and preconceived ideas

how many people really examine where their ideas come from and what the implications of them actually are? To what extent are many peoples ideas actually shaped by emotion?

Back to the subject, how do people feel about extending democracy to other arenas? I believe democracy needs to be promoted in every aspect of life—in the workplace, in education, in families. For all the problems of representative democracy, there's always the civic exuberance during elections—even from the highly anti-political, there's a sense of relish for engaging with questions about the shape and running of society. For me, democracy is not even a type of governance, it's the very thing that disrupts governance from below.

democracy in theory is rule by the majority

but what if 60% of the population hates the other 40% and decides they have to put them in a gulag?

that's a problem for the 40% isn't it?

so what protects the rights of individuals to be able to be free and to speak their mind and to do what they want as long as they don't hurt others?

 

[Rowan Tree]

I think that's very unfair.

Perhaps, and if so I apologise.

INFJ's are supposed to act as catalysts sometimes and perhaps that process sometimes involves challenging conventional wisdom and preconceived ideas

I agree.

so what protects the rights of individuals to be able to be free and to speak their mind and to do what they want as long as they don't hurt others?

For me, a demos (what is empowered by democracy) is never properly a mob. A mob is always subsumed in a love of tyranny, the fear of the other and deference to sacred cows. To be worthy of being called a democracy, a society would need to encourage the necessary virtues and human flourishing that prevents mobs.

 

[kinglear]

For me, a demos (what is empowered by democracy) is never properly a mob. A mob is always subsumed in a love of tyranny, the fear of the other and deference to sacred cows. To be worthy of being called a democracy, a society would need to encourage the necessary virtues and human flourishing that produce mobs.

there's an israeli jazz saxophinist and self described philosopher who is very outspoken and doesn't shy away from difficult subjects

he has a theory that we have two mindsets emerging that he calls 'athens' and 'jersualemite'

he says that the idea of being able to discuss things openly in public forum and to thrash out ideas to let the best ideas prevail dates back to the agora in athens and is the true heritage of europe

however he says that in the left now there is a mindset that wants to shut down free and open discourse and wants to push pre-ordained dictats and that anyone who questions those is a heretic

here he is speaking about these ideas at the reading international festival:

Athens and Jerusalem - Gilad Atzmon at Reading International Festival

 

[Sandie33]

what part is not returned in kind?

ie which part of what i said do you not agree with?

It means I'll not engage with you picking apart my post in an attempt to incite an arguement. You are mistaken in your interpretation of what I had written.
The end.

 

[acd]

it doesn't make sense that more people voting would equal more moderate politicians because you only get to vote on what is offered to you

so what you need to change is what options you have not how many people vote for the same limited and corrupt options

make sense?

Politics in the US in recent years seems to cater to the base. Because people are largely uninvolved in the process. But we see now where that got us and the good thing is that it seems people are getting interested in policy and speaking out and wanting to vote.

So it would help if more moderate or reasonable people ran and more people voted for them too. I would not expect things to change this next election. It takes time for momentum to build.

I don't think the process is hopeless right now. I think it's weak to just drop out and claim it doesn't matter anyway. There are definitely issues, such as like you mentioned, big money in politics, but it's not hopeless and you won't change it by not voting. I think that some of the disenfranchisement felt is a result of almost half the population not exercising their right to vote in elections. All elections. Choosing not to vote is a form of voting. Nearly half the US didn't vote in 2016. Trump didn't win by a huge margin. He lost the popular vote and squeaked out a win in a few swing states. He has the lowest approval rating of any president in modern history. And nearly half the country didn't vote. Elections do have consequences whether you think voting is bullshit or not.

There is also an issue with voter suppression but I think if more people were to fight it, things would change there. There was a big uproar in Georgia and throughout US this summer over a plan to shut down 7 polling sites to "save money." The governor's race is really competitive there. They didn't go through with it because people spoke out instead of bowing out because ''voting never solves anything."

 

[Rowan Tree]

in the left now there is a mindset that wants to shut down free and open discourse and wants to push pre-ordained dictats

The left isn't one thing with one mindset about free speech. There are free speech absolutists on the left as well as people opposed to it in quite extreme ways. Generally, the left takes a complicated view of free speech, understanding that it is different than harassment, incitement, etc. but an important principle nonetheless. Personally, I see it as paramount, because it enables the even more important freedom of conscience—an incommensurable good. The left is often the victim of systemic censorship, sometimes the censorship of the police and almost always a powerfully censorious media run by and for capital.

 

[kinglear]

It means I'll not engage with you picking apart my post in an attempt to incite an arguement. You are mistaken in your interpretation of what I had written.
The end.

that's why i said 'what do you mean?' because i was trying to understand what your interpretation was

 

[kinglear]

The left isn't one thing with one mindset about free speech. There are free speech absolutists on the left as well as people opposed to it in quite extreme ways. Generally, the left takes a complicated view of free speech, understanding that it is different than harassment, incitement, etc. but an important principle nonetheless. Personally, I see it as paramount, because it enables the even more important freedom of conscience—an incommensurable good. The left is often the victim of systemic censorship, sometimes the censorship of the police and almost always a powerfully censorious media run by and for capital.

i disagree

we have political correctness and identity politics being pushed onto society FROM ABOVE

it is coming via government legislation, corporate media and the education system

the left is promoted by capital who want a technocracy and that is why we have these things being pushed on society by elite run institutions