Validity of Astrology *split from INFJs and western astrology*

[ZenCat]

See, that's the thing. Putting the effort into proving astrology (or defending my enjoyment of it) to a skeptic... what's my motivation? I don't particularly mind if you don't believe in astrology. I wouldn't demand an explanation for why you don't. Why does it bother anyone that I do, or if anyone else does? It's not like it's a religion. Or a government. We're not imposing our interest on anyone. It's an interest. Heck, even if it were a religion, why the need to criticize and disprove it? Personally, I find that kind of rude.

How about you skeptics disprove it for those of us who find it interesting?

Make sure you include all the good stuff... absolute proof, links to the research and published and well-received studies on the non-existence of astrology from reputable and respected journals, oh! and pictures would be nice too.

Here's a link to a handy Wiki-article about the History of Astrology, which dates back to the third millennium B.C. and it's impact on the development of cultures across the globe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology

Oh, be sure to disprove all forms of astrology that exist or have existed around the world... Western, Chinese, Mayan, Indian, Arabic, Aztec, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc...

 

[Quinlan]

See, that's the thing. Putting the effort into proving astrology (or defending my enjoyment of it) to a skeptic... what's my motivation?

To give the majesty and wonder of astrology to improve the life of Quinlan or just to sate my curiousity. No one is being forced into this thread are they?

I don't particularly mind if you don't believe in astrology. I wouldn't demand an explanation for why you don't. Why does it bother anyone that I do, or if anyone else does? It's not like it's a religion. Or a government. We're not imposing our interest on anyone. It's an interest. Heck, even if it were a religion, why the need to criticize and disprove it? Personally, I find that kind of rude.

Critical thinking is a difficult habit to get out of, I'm not sure I'd want to.

How about you skeptics disprove it for those of us who find it interesting?

Make sure you include all the good stuff... absolute proof, links to the research and published and well-received studies on the non-existence of astrology from reputable and respected journals, oh! and pictures would be nice too.

Here's a link to a handy Wiki-article about the History of Astrology, which dates back to the third millennium B.C. and it's impact on the development of cultures across the globe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_astrology

Oh, be sure to disprove all forms of astrology that exist or have existed around the world... Western, Chinese, Mayan, Indian, Arabic, Aztec, Egyptian, Babylonian, etc...

...but where would I start? I would also have to disprove sasquatch, fairies, flying spaghetti monsters, demons, the mothman, the roswell crash, god, the tooth fairy and all the other myths and conspiracies out there, that's a lot of work, surely it is easier for the passionate believers to prove it, if it works so well, it shouldn't be very hard to find good evidence at all.

Actually I think it is impossible to disprove something.

 

[ZenCat]

Good reply, Q :thumb:

Yeah, I'm not even passionate about astrology. I just think it's interesting. I am - however - passionate about an individual's right to explore their interests and hold beliefs (whatever they may be) without being persecuted for them.

Putting it in the context of this forum, exploring mystical ideas of all kinds and contemplating the unknown without preconceived prejudice is an INFJ trait, is it not?

Perhaps it is just a part of our nature to be open to and interested in the unknown, whatever the unknown may be considered to be by others.

INFJ - The Mystic​

Profile by Sandra Krebs Hirsch and Jean Kummerow

INFJs are future oriented, and direct their insight and inspiration toward the understanding of themselves and thereby human nature.

INFJs enjoy investigating the possibilities and meanings beyond the actual facts and realities.

Profile by David Keirsey
INFJs focus on possibilities...

INFJs have vivid imaginations exercised both as memory and intuition, and this can amount to genius, resulting at times in an INFJ's being seen as mystical.

 

[Quinlan]

I consider myself open to the unknown but not accepting of it, if that makes sense. Baby steps making the unknown known seems "right" to me, rather than great leaps of faith.

I actually find it very interesting how this discussion runs along very similar lines as religious debates. What leads some people to accept reason over faith and viceversa, I wonder if it's learnt?

 

[arbygil]

Mmm, I don't think it's learned behavior, but I do think it's a deep, personal experience that reaches in and grabs the heart. As for religious conviction, you hope it's that the person had a life changing and engaging experience rather than a dogmatic one. You could pretty much say the same for anything that someone deeply believes and personally experiences.

 

[ZenCat]

What leads some people to accept reason over faith and viceversa, I wonder if it's learnt?

Another question along the same lines is What leads some people to challenge the reasonableness of others' faiths and beliefs?

 

[Quinlan]

Maybe they find their sense of order in that way? Like if they can get everyone to pursue objective reality then everyone is on the same page? But if it's a subjective free for all in regards to what's real then there is no control, they see others with beliefs that they see as false, that to them is a waste or even damaging to others. Example: Jonny believes in the shower monster and therefore doesn't ever wash himself, the others in the group cannot see the shower monster but they can all smell the effects(bad body odour) of his belief in the shower monster. To the group the BO is real, they can all smell it, the shower monster is false, they can't see it. So the group demands Jonny to prove the shower monster exists otherwise he will have to take a shower because it's affecting the rest of the group.

That probably makes no sense.

 

[ZenCat]

Maybe they find their sense of order in that way? Like if they can get everyone to pursue objective reality then everyone is on the same page? But if it's a subjective free for all in regards to what's real then there is no control, they see others with beliefs that they see as false, that to them is a waste or even damaging to others. Example: Jonny believes in the shower monster and therefore doesn't ever wash himself, the others in the group cannot see the shower monster but they can all smell the effects(bad body odour) of his belief in the shower monster. To the group the BO is real, they can all smell it, the shower monster is false, they can't see it. So the group demands Jonny to prove the shower monster exists otherwise he will have to take a shower because it's affecting the rest of the group.

That probably makes no sense.

Gotta admit, I don't see the parallel to the topic at hand.

*sniff pits* Does astrology make me smell bad?

 

[Quinlan]

The effects of subjective beliefs can be damaging when applied to the objective world. Hmm this is getting too philosophical for me to explain...

The effects of the belief are obvious for all to see, so the reason for the belief should slso be obvious for all to see.

Subjective beliefs are fine, as long as they are doing no harm, but they often do harm and sometimes in quite subtle ways.

 

[ZenCat]

Okay. I see that.

What harm does astrology do?

 

[arbygil]

And what if the harm is subjective? It's hard to pin down any one idea, because it seems as if all things based on our five senses - and even more so beyond - is based on our own perception and personal experiences. If Jonny lives among people who cannot bathe except once/month because of a water shortage, then only the people who bathe more often will smell him and call him stinky.

But on the other hand, you might have a pathogen or diseases that occur as a result of the stinky, which can destroy populations, etc...

I guess the question is this: Will the end product of your belief result in a destruction of a people group, and that people group's way of life? If so, then yes - it might be a truth worth fighting for. Otherwise....

*(Heck, I think TV can destroy people groups and a people group's way of life, but I ain't gonna tell folks to stop watching TV. Especially when I do so, on occasion!)

 

[Quinlan]

I suppose it's not too bad, although it generates incorrect assumptions and prejudging people based on where the planets were born is unfair I reckon.

 

[Quinlan]

Am I like my star sign? Pisces.

 

[arbygil]

I suppose it's not too bad, although it generates incorrect assumptions and prejudging people based on where the planets were born is unfair I reckon.

Meh, that can happen with MBTI. I know a few people who feel they're unfairly treated when others discover that they happen to be Sensors (which I've *never* understood - we all have so much to bring to the table!).

 

[HolySmoke]

INFJ's shouldn't need astrology if we are heavy in N to begin with...

DIVING.

 

[Quinlan]

INFJ's shouldn't need astrology if we are heavy in N to begin with...

DIVING.

Ohhh good point.

I'm off for lunch to ponder the existence of reality.

 

[HolySmoke]

Ohhh good point.

I'm off for lunch to ponder the existence of reality.

(K, although I'll admit, it can be seriously accurate, in my subjective view.)

My friend does a lot of Tarrot, yes, unrelated, but she seems more confused than just about anyone. I give her advice and she pauses to think how it can be interwoven into her tarrot readings. Can't help but think perhaps we do that to a degree with astrology.

Just a thought... :noidea:

 

[ZenCat]

Am I like my star sign? Pisces.

Well you did start that thread about fishing.

It's funny you ask, though. Earlier when I was thinking about Duty's frustration with astrology and the truth, I looked up his MBTI type and his sun sign (which is just the tip of the iceberg as far as in-depth astrology goes) and the results made me grin...

INTP

For the INTP, it is extremely important that ideas and facts are expressed correctly and succinctly. They are likely to express themselves in what they believe to be absolute truths.

The INTP has no understanding or value for decisions made on the basis of personal subjectivity or feelings. They strive constantly to achieve logical conclusions to problems, and don't understand the importance or relevance of applying subjective emotional considerations to decisions.

INTPs value knowledge above all else. Their minds are constantly working to generate new theories, or to prove or disprove existing theories.

For here is the central goal of the INTP: to understand and seek truth. The experience of anything takes a back seat.

The argument may even be made that "points of view" and "opinions" are irrelevant since only objective truth counts. In reality, INTPs can often become far less objective than they think they ought to be: precisely at those times when the under-developed Feeling gnaws at his being.


AQUARIUS

Aquarius likes truth and will not knowingly live a lie. Aquarians will flout all conventions rather than do so. The trick of course is in knowing what truth is.

They like to get to origins and the root of things, so they enjoy philosophy, religion, science and technology — any means of getting to the truth.

Forceful in their different ways and have strong convictions, though as they seek truth above all things.

Among the faults to which they are liable are fanatical eccentricity, wayward egotism, excessive detachment and an inclination to retreat from life and society, and a tendency to be extremely dogmatic in their opinions.

They value "truth" above all things

Aquarius is a truth-addict.

If you're looking for a great deal of sentiment and romance, stay away from Aquarius. You're more likely to have lengthy political and ideological discussions, and very few whispered and sweet nothings.

 

[Black Swan]

Oh my gosh, Zen, you're too funny. :laugh:

But this is a good example of why astrology is intriguing.

(And anytime Arbygil and IndigoSensor).

 

[ZenCat]

Just for you, Q. I don't make assumptions or judgments about people based on their astrological chart any more than I do about their MBTI. Only we - as individuals - can really decide if we're "like" our sign or indicator:

Pisceans are not practical people. They are too ephemeral for normal day to day living in the 9-5 "practical" world. They are sensitive and instinctual rather than intellectual or mechanical. They lack decisiveness and are easily diverted from their purposes. They are apt to live an ambitionless sort of life, searching for some career or meaning in which to pour themselves. They discourage easily, and can become despondent, feel unappreciated and regularly move on to something or someone else.
When, however, they do find the right container, they are capable of some incredible deeds. They will become completely absorbed in a chosen path, to the exclusion of everything else. The 'absent minded professor', such as Albert Einstein, is a classic Pisces character. They don't fare well in a controlled or fixed environment and generally rebel against convention. Unlike the Aquarian, however, who will fight the establishment, Pisces wages only a personal battle.


"It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer."
–Albert Einstein, born March 14, 1879

Pisces zodiac symbol in stained glass at Chartres cathedral, France.​

Pisceans do best in an environment where they can exercise their imaginations and intuitive nature. They are gifted artistically. They are versatile and tend to understand things by absorption rather than logic. They are receptive to new ideas and circumstances. They possess wonderful creativity which is demonstrated in music, literature, drama and art. They have an acute instinct for, and love of beauty in nature as well as the arts. They appreciate luxury and pleasure, and are ripe for new sensations. When they travel, Pisceans prefer remote, exotic places.
Pisceans rarely have an ego problem, and in their personal relationships and friendships tend to be very giving. In matters of the heart, they seek a soul mate rather than a bed mate. That is not to say they will not hop from bed to bed in search of this soul mate. Pisces is a spirit on a quest for Utopia, and Utopia does not exist on this earth. Pisces is easily misled because they want to believe. No matter how often they are led astray by vacant promises, they keep the faith and go on looking for their personal ideal. They are loyal, home-loving, kind and generous, but their dreamy and impractical natures are a source of distress to those close to them.


"Life's greatest happiness is to be convinced we are loved."
–Victor Hugo, born February 26, 1802

It goes on and on here:

http://www.elore.com/Astrology/Study/pisces.htm

But as those of us with an interest in it know, your sun sign is just one aspect of the whole.