Ukraine | Page 8 | INFJ Forum

Ukraine

The petro-dollar is under threat because of the aggression of the international banksters whose actions are driving russia and china closer together. The more the US/EU/Israel alliance tries to isolate russia the more russia will look east for business

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...n-prepares-announce-holy-grail-gas-deal-china

[h=1]Petrodollar Alert: Putin Prepares To Announce "Holy Grail" Gas Deal With China[/h]
If it was the intent of the West to bring Russia and China together - one a natural resource (if "somewhat" corrupt) superpower and the other a fixed capital / labor output (if "somewhat" capital misallocating and credit bubbleicious) powerhouse - in the process marginalizing the dollar and encouraging Ruble and Renminbi bilateral trade, then things are surely "going according to plan."
For now there have been no major developments as a result of the shift in the geopolitical axis that has seen global US influence, away from the Group of 7 (most insolvent nations) of course, decline precipitously in the aftermath of the bungled Syrian intervention attempt and the bloodless Russian annexation of Crimea, but that will soon change. Because while the west is focused on day to day developments in Ukraine, and how to halt Russian expansion through appeasement (hardly a winning tactic as events in the 1930s demonstrated), Russia is once again thinking 3 steps ahead... and quite a few steps east.
While Europe is furiously scrambling to find alternative sources of energy should Gazprom pull the plug on natgas exports to Germany and Europe (the imminent surge in Ukraine gas prices by 40% is probably the best indication of what the outcome would be), Russia is preparing the announcement of the "Holy Grail" energy deal with none other than China, a move which would send geopolitical shockwaves around the world and bind the two nations in a commodity-backed axis. One which, as some especially on these pages, have suggested would lay the groundwork for a new joint, commodity-backed reserve currency that bypasses the dollar, something which Russia implied moments ago when its finance minister Siluanov said that Russia may refrain from foreign borrowing this year. Translated: bypass western purchases of Russian debt, funded by Chinese purchases of US Treasurys, and go straight to the source.
Here is what will likely happen next, as explained by Reuters:


Igor Sechin gathered media in Tokyo the next day to warn Western governments that more sanctions over Moscow's seizure of the Black Sea peninsula from Ukraine would be counter-productive.

The underlying message from the head of Russia's biggest oil company, Rosneft, was clear: If Europe and the United States isolate Russia, Moscow will look East for new business, energy deals, military contracts and political alliances.

The Holy Grail for Moscow is a natural gas supply deal with China that is apparently now close after years of negotiations. If it can be signed when Putin visits China in May, he will be able to hold it up to show that global power has shifted eastwards and he does not need the West.
More details on the revelation of said "Holy Grail":


State-owned Russian gas firm Gazprom hopes to pump 38 billion cubic meters (bcm) of natural gas per year to China from 2018 via the first pipeline between the world's largest producer of conventional gas to the largest consumer.

"May is in our plans," a Gazprom spokesman said, when asked about the timing of an agreement. A company source said: "It would be logical to expect the deal during Putin's visit to China."
Summarizing what should be and is painfully obvious to all, but apparently to the White House, which keeps prodding at Russia, is the following:


"The worse Russia's relations are with the West, the closer Russia will want to be to China. If China supports you, no one can say you're isolated," said Vasily Kashin, a China expert at the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST) think thank.
Bingo. And now add bilateral trade denominated in either Rubles or Renminbi (or gold), add Iran, Iraq, India, and soon the Saudis (China's largest foreign source of crude, whose crown prince also happened to meet president Xi Jinping last week to expand trade further) and wave goodbye to the petrodollar.
As reported previoisly, China has already implicitly backed Putin without risking it relations with the West. "Last Saturday China abstained in a U.N. Security Council vote on a draft resolution declaring invalid the referendum in which Crimea went on to back union with Russia. Although China is nervous about referendums in restive regions of other countries which might serve as a precedent for Tibet and Taiwan, it has refused to criticize Moscow. The support of Beijing is vital for Putin. Not only is China a fellow permanent member of the U.N. Security Council with whom Russia thinks alike, it is also the world's second biggest economy and it opposes the spread of Western-style democracy."

This culminated yesterday, when as we reported last night, Putin thanked China for its "understanding over Ukraine." China hasn't exactly kept its feelings about closer relations with Russia under wraps either:


Chinese President Xi Jinping showed how much he values ties with Moscow, and Putin in particular, by making Russia his first foreign visit as China's leader last year and attending the opening of the Winter Olympics in Sochi last month.

Many Western leaders did not go to the Games after criticism of Russia's record on human rights. By contrast, when Putin and Xi discussed Ukraine by telephone on March 4, the Kremlin said their positions were "close".
The punchline: "A strong alliance would suit both countries as a counterbalance to the United States." An alliance that would merely be an extension of current trends in close bilateral relations, including not only infrastructure investment but also military supplies:


However, China overtook Germany as Russia's biggest buyer of crude oil this year thanks to Rosneft securing deals to boost eastward oil supplies via the East Siberia-Pacific Ocean pipeline and another crossing Kazakhstan.

If Russia is isolated by a new round of Western sanctions - those so far affect only a few officials' assets abroad and have not been aimed at companies - Russia and China could also step up cooperation in areas apart from energy. CAST's Kashin said the prospects of Russia delivering Sukhoi SU-35 fighter jets to China, which has been under discussion since 2010, would grow.

China is very interested in investing in infrastructure, energy and commodities in Russia, and a decline in business with the West could force Moscow to drop some of its reservations about Chinese investment in strategic industries. "With Western sanctions, the atmosphere could change quickly in favor of China," said Brian Zimbler Managing Partner of Morgan Lewis international law firm's Moscow office.

Russia-China trade turnover grew by 8.2 percent in 2013 to $8.1 billion but Russia was still only China's seventh largest export partner in 2013, and was not in the top 10 countries for imported goods. The EU is Russia's biggest trade partner, accounting for almost half of all its trade turnover.
And as if pushing Russia into the warm embrace of the world's most populous nation was not enough, there is also the second most populated country in the world, India.


Putin did take time, however, to thank one other country apart from China for its understanding over Ukraine and Crimea - saying India had shown "restraint and objectivity".

He also called Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to discuss the crisis on Tuesday, suggesting there is room for Russia's ties with traditionally non-aligned India to flourish.

Although India has become the largest export market for U.S. arms, Russia remains a key defense supplier and relations are friendly, even if lacking a strong business and trade dimension, due to a strategic partnership dating to the Soviet era.

Putin's moves to assert Russian control over Crimea were seen very favorably in the Indian establishment, N. Ram, publisher of The Hindu newspaper, told Reuters. "Russia has legitimate interests," he added.
To summarize: while the biggest geopolitical tectonic shift since the cold war accelerates with the inevitable firming of the "Asian axis", the west monetizes its debt, revels in the paper wealth created from an all time high manipulated stock market while at the same time trying to explain why 6.5% unemployment is really indicative of a weak economy, blames the weather for every disappointing economic data point, and every single person is transfixed with finding a missing airplane.
 
http://www.globalresearch.ca/forget...suries-heres-the-real-economic-threat/5374756

Russia Could Crush the Petrodollar
Russia threatened to dump its U.S. treasuries if America imposed sanctions regarding Russia’s action in the Crimea.
Zero Hedge argues that Russia has already done so.
But veteran investor Jim Sinclair argues that Russia has a much scarier financial attack which Russia can use against the U.S.
Specifically, Sinclair says that if Russia accepts payment for oil and gas in any currency other than the dollar – whether it’s gold, the Euro, the Ruble, the Rupee, or anything else – then the U.S. petrodollar system will collapse:
Indeed, one of the main pillars for U.S. power is the petrodollar, and the U.S. is desperate for the dollar to maintain reserve status. Some wise commentators have argued that recent U.S. wars have really been about keeping the rest of the world on the petrodollar standard.
The theory is that – after Nixon took the U.S. off the gold standard, which had made the dollar the world’s reserve currency – America salvaged that role by adopting the petrodollar. Specifically, the U.S. and Saudi Arabia agreed that all oil and gas would be priced in dollars, so the rest of the world had to use dollars for most transactions.
But Reuters notes that Russia may be mere months away from signing a bilateral trade deal with China, where China would buy huge quantities of Russian oil and gas.
Zero Hedge argues:
Add bilateral trade denominated in either Rubles or Renminbi (or gold), add Iran, Iraq, India, and soon the Saudis (China’s largest foreign source of crude, whose crown prince also happened to meet president Xi Jinping last week to expand trade further) and wave goodbye to the petrodollar.
As we noted last year:
The average life expectancy for a fiat currency is less than 40 years.
But what about “reserve currencies”, like the U.S. dollar?
JP Morgan noted last year that “reserve currencies” have a limited shelf-life:
Reserve%20Currency%20Status.png

As the table shows, U.S. reserve status has already lasted as long as Portugal and the Netherland’s reigns. It won’t happen tomorrow, or next week … but the end of the dollar’s rein is coming nonetheless, and China and many other countries are calling for a new reserve currency.
Remember, China is entering into more and more major deals with other countries to settle trades in Yuans, instead of dollars. This includes the European Union (the world’s largest economy) [and also Russia].
And China is quietly becoming a gold superpower
Given that China has surpassed the U.S. as the world’s largest importer of oil, Saudi Arabia is moving away from the U.S. … and towards China. (Some even argue that the world will switch from the petrodollar to the petroYUAN. We’re not convinced that will happen.)
In any event, a switch to pricing petroleum in anything other than dollars exclusively – whether a single alternative currency, gold, or even a mix of currencies or commodities – would spell the end of the dollar as the world’s reserve currency.
For that reason, Sinclair – no fan of either Russia or Putin – urges American leaders to back away from an economic confrontation with Russia, arguing that the U.S. would be the loser.
 
land grab in Crimea
 
land grab in Crimea

Not really

Its more of a land loss for russia because before the bankster backed government grabbed power in kiev Ukraine had close links with russia

Russia has gas pipelines all over Ukraine and has now lost that territorial control; all russia has managed to hold onto is the crimea which it had a military base in anyway and which has oil and gas off its coast (so it was vital for russia to maintain control...not to mention a heavily pro-russian population)

So not a land grab for russia...more of a land loss

the land grab has been carried out by the international banksters who have gained control of most of ukraine, pulling it out of the sphere of russia
 
What Putin did in Crimea was a land grab. Period. I'm not talking about anywhere else. Blocking Ukraine's ships from leaving port. Overpowering the main airstrip today. Flaunting his military responses. Does the new east and west begin at Ukraine and Crimea?

copied from Debkafile today.."Ukrainian military sources report that Russian APCs entered the big Ukrainian air base of Belbek near Sevastopol in Crimea Saturday amid gunfire, after giving the Ukrainians a deadline to leave. At least one casualty reported. Their commander was taken away by the Russian force. They had effectively lost control of the base to the Russians except for the dormitories where the Ukrainian troops remained. Their commanders reported orders from Kiev to shoot Russian soldiers breaking into the base. Friday, Ukrainian soldiers were allowed to leave another base with their equipment. The peninsula is now calm and the peninsula under full control of Russian and allied forces." unquote

Occupied militarily by force, reinforced with way too many moves, and there seemed to be a lot of people in the world angry at him but nobody wants to do anything but risk the world's financial stature's decline. I'm going back to computer chess. It's not always right, either.
 
Last edited:
What Putin did in Crimea was a land grab. Period. I'm not talking about anywhere else. Blocking Ukraine's ships from leaving port. Overpowering the main airstrip today. Flaunting his military responses. Does the new east and west begin at Ukraine and Crimea?

copied from Debkafile today.."Ukrainian military sources report that Russian APCs entered the big Ukrainian air base of Belbek near Sevastopol in Crimea Saturday amid gunfire, after giving the Ukrainians a deadline to leave. At least one casualty reported. Their commander was taken away by the Russian force. They had effectively lost control of the base to the Russians except for the dormitories where the Ukrainian troops remained. Their commanders reported orders from Kiev to shoot Russian soldiers breaking into the base. Friday, Ukrainian soldiers were allowed to leave another base with their equipment. The peninsula is now calm and the peninsula under full control of Russian and allied forces." unquote

Occupied militarily by force, reinforced with way too many moves, and there seemed to be a lot of people in the world angry at him but nobody wants to do anything but risk the world's financial stature's decline. I'm going back to computer chess. It's not always right, either.

The crimean referendum voted to join russia so the ukrainian troops are tresspassing on russian soil now; they were given a deadline to withdraw

That anyone in kiev could have instructed them to make a stand against the russians is sick; to ask isolated soldiers with families to make a stand against unbeatable odds in a pointless stand off that represents a flash point that could spark WW3 is reckless to the extreme

The crimea is now part of russia; the crimean people voted to join russia rather than join the EU

From an obejctive standpoint they did the wise thing; if you look at the articles i've posted regarding the downfall of the dollar as the world reserve currency its clear that the crimean people jumped from a sinking ship....who can blame them?
 
You fail to agree about this. That is fine, but is does not make you right. You can go right on thinking this vote was fine. I'll go right on thinking it was highly stuffed down their throats, Russian or not. Besides, Crimea was part of Ukraine. Thjat is like California voting to no longer be part of the USA.
 
You fail to agree about this. That is fine, but is does not make you right. You can go right on thinking this vote was fine. I'll go right on thinking it was highly stuffed down their throats, Russian or not. Besides, Crimea was part of Ukraine. Thjat is like California voting to no longer be part of the USA.

Ukraine was part of the USSR

So it would be like California breaking off from the USA but keeping strong ethnic and trading links with the USA and then a few years later having a violent revolution funded by outside forces who help fascist forces into power who then want to join the outside force (eg a south american trading alliance). Then a small area of California voting to remain with the USA rather than join the s.amercian trading alliance that has grabbed california
 
WHEN was Ukraine part of Russia?
 
WHEN was Ukraine part of Russia?

I said Ukraine was part of the USSR

It was part of the USSR from 1919-1991

These were a group of united states (the union of soviet socialist republics) just like the USA is a group of united states
 
Ukraine was part of the USSR

So it would be like California breaking off from the USA but keeping strong ethnic and trading links with the USA and then a few years later having a violent revolution funded by outside forces who help fascist forces into power who then want to join the outside force (eg a south american trading alliance). Then a small area of California voting to remain with the USA rather than join the s.amercian trading alliance that has grabbed california

I don't know about the circumstances of Ukraine joining the USSR, but I know that the rest of the Soviet Bloc doesn't take what's happened lightly considering the ethnic Russians which were forcibly relocated into their countries, as the natives were forcibly relocated out, in the good old days. In places like Estonia, we're talking about a very solid minority, 1/3. Do they need saving too? Estonia is doing better for itself than it ever did with close supervision of Teutons, Russians, Nazis, or Soviets.

http://news.yahoo.com/moscow-rattles-estonia-talk-concern-russian-population-190105461.html
 
I don't know about the circumstances of Ukraine joining the USSR, but I know that the rest of the Soviet Bloc doesn't take what's happened lightly considering the ethnic Russians which were forcibly relocated into their countries, as the natives were forcibly relocated out, in the good old days. In places like Estonia, we're talking about a very solid minority, 1/3. Do they need saving too? Estonia is doing better for itself than it ever did with close supervision of Teutons, Russians, Nazis, or Soviets.

http://news.yahoo.com/moscow-rattles-estonia-talk-concern-russian-population-190105461.html

In the 1930's the fascists were being supported in germany to crush the communists. The power el-ites in the west supported the fascists because they were afraid of the spread of communism

The USSR never reached a state of communism though it was state capitalism. Also the revolution needed germany because germany contained the industrial heartland of Europe whereas Russia was mostly an agrarian peasant economy. The communists nearly did take control of germany but the fascists won out in the end and suppressed 'communism'

This left the 'communist' (state capitalist, centrally controlled market economies) states in a weak state going into the cold war (without the industrial strength of Germany)

This really is the reason why so called 'communism' failed. Now with all the oil and gas however Russia is growing in strength economically

Meanwhile the west is in decline. The dollar is going to lose its status as a world reserve currency, the banks in the US and Europe are gearing up (after a bailout) for a 'bail in' where they will freeze peoples bank accounts and literally grab money straight from peoples accounts which will lead to unrest and further damage the economy. Also the west makes claims about the strength of their economies but the reality is that the index they use to publically declare inflation does not include food or energy and any fool can see that food and energy costs are rising so they are in effect lying to the public about the state of their economies

So on one hand we have an increasingly robust Russia who is trading more and more with the 'BRICS' emerging economies and who has the nuclear clout that prevents the US from bullying her (like it does everyone else except China) and on the other hand we have the declining 'west' with their zombie economies

So i think more and more people across europe will be asking themselves in this new century what side their bread is buttered on

For example are you watching all the protests in Greece and Spain at the moment; the spanish ones are erupting into violence. The 'western' bankers are impoversihing people and this is leading to increasing anger
 
I said Ukraine was part of the USSR

It was part of the USSR from 1919-1991

These were a group of united states (the union of soviet socialist republics) just like the USA is a group of united states

Then, if I rephrased that, it would sound something like: Ukraine used to be part of the USSR about thirteen years ago.
 
Then, if I rephrased that, it would sound something like: Ukraine used to be part of the USSR about thirteen years ago.

Very recently yes

And even more recently there was a move to make crimea autonomous from Ukraine to the point where they even created their own constitution

There are things that Russia could be criticised for but i think this particular situation is pretty easy to see from a russian perspective

What i find disturbing though is the total lack of criticism from you of US government behaviours....like you have a tunnel vision of reality
 
Very recently yes

And even more recently there was a move to make crimea autonomous from Ukraine to the point where they even created their own constitution

There are things that Russia could be criticised for but i think this particular situation is pretty easy to see from a russian perspective

What i find disturbing though is the total lack of criticism from you of US government behaviours....like you have a tunnel vision of reality

I call it properly according to who is in the right and who is in the wrong. I have stated time and again I like Putin. I do not care for the direction our current administration is taking us and a large part of the world. I don't like their agenda. I don't like their goals.
Still, Putin was in the right when the rioting started in Kiev to act the way he did to protect this disease from spilling over his best interests. Up until he started playing with the political agenda of Crimea, which is still constitutionally part of Ukraine, I did not agree with his actions. He is in the wrong. I have already stated how I feel about the leaders of America, though there are senators and congressmen I still like. If they do something wrong, I will call it wrong.
You sound like another member sounded regarding certain issues a long time back.

Let me put it like this for you: This is my opinion I am speaking about, and you are obliged with your own. Don't call Ukraine part of Russia: you are stretching the truth. Thirteen years is a long time. Believe me, after being married to the same person for 21 years.
It just makes me wonder how many things you say that are out of proportion and true at some time or another, but not now.
 
Russia SEEMS TO BE exploiting sanctions and agreements for personal gain. Not with China, but with Iran and China and God knows who else. Global war on oil without firing a shot, just like he almost did in Crimea.
 
I call it properly according to who is in the right and who is in the wrong. I have stated time and again I like Putin. I do not care for the direction our current administration is taking us and a large part of the world. I don't like their agenda. I don't like their goals.
Still, Putin was in the right when the rioting started in Kiev to act the way he did to protect this disease from spilling over his best interests. Up until he started playing with the political agenda of Crimea, which is still constitutionally part of Ukraine, I did not agree with his actions. He is in the wrong. I have already stated how I feel about the leaders of America, though there are senators and congressmen I still like. If they do something wrong, I will call it wrong.
You sound like another member sounded regarding certain issues a long time back.

Let me put it like this for you: This is my opinion I am speaking about, and you are obliged with your own. Don't call Ukraine part of Russia: you are stretching the truth. Thirteen years is a long time. Believe me, after being married to the same person for 21 years.
It just makes me wonder how many things you say that are out of proportion and true at some time or another, but not now.

Thats the second time you have misquoted me. I have already said to you once that i did not say that Ukriane was part of russia i said it had recently been part of the USSR

I also said that even more recently there had been moves to make it autonomous from the Ukraine and they even formed their own constitution

The point being that the system in the Ukraine is not how the western media portray it. The reality is that the people there overwhelmingly want to be with russia rather than the EU

I personally think, looking at the economic situation in the world right now, that they have made the right choice

The EU may well break up in the coming years...many people are getting sick of it

Venice has even voted recently that they would like to break off from Italy!

Who knows some states might even break off from the US
 
Russia SEEMS TO BE exploiting sanctions and agreements for personal gain. Not with China, but with Iran and China and God knows who else. Global war on oil without firing a shot, just like he almost did in Crimea.

There is a struggle....thats no secret...between the bankster controlled 'west' and the rest of the world who they are seeking to dominate

This is going to come back and bite the banksters in the ass but not before they make a big mess of things
 
Interview with gereald celente where he tells it as it is...starts at 3:40

[video=youtube;o_iNIf1nU8U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_iNIf1nU8U[/video]