[INFJ] Types you're attracted to?

[aeon]

Aren’t there lots of people who suffer such abuse but don’t develop BPD or similar? Maybe there needs to be a weakness for it? Perhaps shitty personality plus abuse = monster? Jus sayin’

Certainly, and that’s a matter of many variables. That said, there’s no need to describe any child’s personality as shitty, or adult’s for that matter, and I don’t think anyone suffering the sequelae of developmental trauma is a monster. Their presentation is often not pleasant, least of all for them, but no one is helped by making them other, or something less than human.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[David Nelson]

Certainly, and that’s a matter of many variables. That said, there’s no need to describe any child’s personality as shitty, or adult’s for that matter, and I don’t think anyone suffering the sequelae of developmental trauma is a monster. Their presentation is often not pleasant, least of all for them, but no one is helped by making them other, or something less than human.

Cheers,
Ian

Isn’t that the problem of modern times? A refusal to accept people can be good or bad? If we eliminate personal responsibility from a person for their actions, where does that leave ethics? Maybe this needs a new thread?

 

[aeon]

Do you think the lack of scientific validity of MBTI is because it’s hard to prove or because the scientific establishment is narrow minded or both?

Over time, MBTI has demonstrated very limited reliability and validity, and also suffers from the cognitive bias of the Barnum effect. It was studied for years, but the (lack of) results were clear.

interestingly this INTJ rubbished MBTI on the basis of lack of coverage in academia, which to me shows weakness of Te compared to Ti.

That you compare functions and find some lacking is noted, as is the fact you made no mention of the INTJ’s use of Ni. Given this, how should I consider your own conclusions?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[David Nelson]

Ni with Te is very different to Ni with Ti. Te is worldly while Ti is theoretical. Ti will beat Te over theory and the underpinnings of anything, while Te only wins in being more aware of a compromised reality. Te struggled with nuance and square pegs in round holes and the vagueness of rules and institutions etc.

 

[David Nelson]

Science also can’t disprove MBTI, since it cannot prove the non existence of anything. Lack of proof is not equal to negation of possible existence.

 

[aeon]

Isn’t that the problem of modern times? A refusal to accept people can be good or bad? If we eliminate personal responsibility from a person for their actions, where does that leave ethics? Maybe this needs a new thread?

I said nothing of acceptance, nor responsibility. I value behaviors, some positively, some negatively, but I don’t find any merit in judging a person as good or bad. Who am I to say, anyway? To some, a person is a terrorist, and to others, a freedom fighter.

Certainly, each and every is responsible for their actions, save exception to nature of mind. IANAL

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Lady Jolanda]

Aren’t there lots of people who suffer such abuse but don’t develop BPD or similar?

There are people who suffer abuse and don't go on to develop a personality disorder, that is true.

For those that do, there is a genetic component. People have certain inborn vulnerable personality traits, such as inhibition or impulsivity or sensitivity or intelligence, which then gets hyperactivated by an abusive environment. (Epigenetics.) The same traits actually flourish in healthy environments.

Van der Kolk (trauma specialist) has been able to determine with certainty that 81% of his patients with BPD suffered childhood abuse. (That is, there was objective proof, not just stories.) Going by stories it's more like 90%.

What about the other 10%? Unknown. Maybe brain injuries or autoimmune disease or other illnesses.

 

[David Nelson]

Well I believe there are good and bad people. I understand that from a purely scientific point of view, everything has an objective reason, but I think character is largely genetic. It’s not just due to environment/upbringing. If a person has a worse personality or character you could argue they cannot help but to have been born that way, but they are still lesser all the same, just like a tall person is tall. If we don’t make a distinction between people on that basis then virtue is meaningless, and we do a great disservice to genuinely nice people.

 

[Lady Jolanda]

I have avoidant personality disorder and ptsd as the result of decades of childhood abuse.

David, do you believe I am a bad person?

(I wouldn't be offended if you did.)


Now granted, avoidant isn't borderline, but the major difference there is that borderlines had it even worse.

Years of therapy and especially a healthy relationship, in other words, a loving environment, is finally letting me heal. My genome didn't change.

 

[aeon]

a healthy relationship, in other words, a loving environment, is finally letting me heal.

As time goes by (and based on my life experience), I’m thinking more and more—that is the only thing that works.

Best to You,
Ian

 

[RonjaRaeubertochter]

I prefer the company of cats over most people. But I am happy when relatives "park" their kids here for a while for me to watch. Stopped looking for a relationship. Btw, cannot say much positive about INTJs either.

 

[David Nelson]

I have avoidant personality disorder and ptsd as the result of decades of childhood abuse.

David, do you believe I am a bad person?

(I wouldn't be offended if you did.)


Now granted, avoidant isn't borderline, but the major difference there is that borderlines had it even worse.

Years of therapy and especially a healthy relationship, in other words, a loving environment, is finally letting me heal. My genome didn't change.

Avoidant sounds very different to BPD. I don’t think you’re a bad person but I’d have to know you better to be sure lol. PTSD is different as it doesn’t make you horrible just reactive in certain situations afaik.

The behaviour of this woman’s have experienced from friends’ account displays little/no empathy or insight. I know anyone in the right situation can get angry and even violent, but can an intelligent person be prompted to such behaviour just because of having BDP and without any good reason?

 

[aeon]

I know anyone in the right situation can get angry and even violent, but can an intelligent person be prompted to such behaviour just because of having BDP and without any good reason?

Certainly, and it would be good to remember that their good reason is not your own.

Individuals diagnosed with BPD suffer so very greatly, that is for sure.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[David Nelson]

The funny thing is I’ve now learnt what this INTJ thought and although she is not academically stupid, the stupidity of many of her conclusions is staggering. I really think Te is dumb compared to Ti. And allied to unhealthy Ni, it makes sweeping, simplistic conclusions which miss so much it’s unreal. Mastermind? More like intellectual Pygmy compared to INFJ thinking.

 

[Wyote]

The funny thing is I’ve now learnt what this INTJ thought and although she is not academically stupid, the stupidity of many of her conclusions is staggering. I really think Te is dumb compared to Ti. And allied to unhealthy Ni, it makes sweeping, simplistic conclusions which miss so much it’s unreal. Mastermind? More like intellectual Pygmy compared to INFJ thinking.

Perhaps you aren't INFJ, or they aren't INTJ

 

[David Nelson]

Perhaps you aren't INFJ, or they aren't INTJ

Pretty sure we are as I said. They displayed typical INTJ coolness and eye focus. Te like any function has its strengths, but it’s not good at deconstructing things, which is essentially how Ti works and how we gain insight and understanding. A lack of Ti in the world would be disastrous. I know our current cultural climate is to level most things, but for me Ti is way more important than Te. Te is for fools like Putin and Trump. Te is crafty where Ti is innocent.

 

[Wyote]

A lack of Ti in the world would be disastrous.

Mostly all INTJs I've ever known score very high on both Te and Ti.
For some reason you hang with potatoes.

 

[David Nelson]

Mostly all INTJs I've ever known score very high on both Te and Ti.
For some reason you hang with potatoes.

If they scored high on Te and Ti they would be refuting MBTI. How exactly did they score high on Ti? Self reporting?

 

[Jexocuha]

Do you think the lack of scientific validity of MBTI is because it’s hard to prove or because the scientific establishment is narrow minded or both?

interestingly this INTJ rubbished MBTI on the basis of lack of coverage in academia, which to me shows weakness of Te compared to Ti.

I get a lot of what you are saying @David Nelson about Te vs Ti. Te is not the "intelligence" function, in a cultural layman's image of an xNTP-like version of intelligence. Te seeks certainty and clarity in the environment. But that's all broad brush whitewashing of types. And you're right, INFJs can be extremely intelligent. Imo, based on some observations, they can have that sort of "wild intelligence" that I see also possessed by xNFPs and ENFJs. What I have observed though is lack of acknowledgement of this - especially of how "crazy smart" one can be at times to have Ti in the tertiary position. I think INTJs can get more acknowledgement of their intelligence not necessarily because of their Te function, but have you considered their Fi function? In order for one to make a case for an argument and make it powerful, one has to actually care about it and get others to also care. INTJs, I've noticed, have this power. Ti, although a truly analytical function, can be so far removed from reality(especially coupled with Ni), that to others it's so alien, no one cares. And that is the big point I'm trying to make - you have to care and/or get others to actually care about the arguments you are trying to make.

just my two cents.

 

[Wyote]

If they scored high on Te and Ti they would be refuting MBTI

Did I say they weren't