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Transgenders

But I have a problem associating myself with transgender because the termology implies that

1. Yes, gender roles exist
2. I am on the wrong side of the gender role. I'm not just expressing myself, but I specifically expressing a gender role that is not the gender role I am assigned to and I admit that there is a wrong and right gender role for everyone.

Because at the individual level gender role is meaningless, but at society/relationship level it is very real. Consider yourself an image of your future husband (if you're heterosexual) - he probably has some interesting characteristics and gender is one of them. That way you are expecting him to fit that role and it might feel like the right thing to do :) So in reality women define what is masculine and men define what is feminine.

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Because at the individual level gender role is meaningless, but at society/relationship level it is very real. Consider yourself an image of your future husband (if you're heterosexual) - he probably has some interesting characteristics and gender is one of them. That way you are expecting him to fit that role and it might feel like the right thing to do :) So in reality women define what is masculine and men define what is feminine.

Future husband?

1. Penises. Disgusting.
2. Marriage is an industry for the religious.

So I don't understand the point you were trying to make, if you can explain it differently then maybe I might.
 
Well I did question which gender do I belong to - but I just couldn't come to any conclusion :D I'm pretty much OK the way I am now (though there are some things that I don't like) but I guess I would have been equally OK if I were a woman too. Maybe even a bit better because girls have an easier time at getting laid ;) If there were a machine that instantly and completely changes one's sex I would be very tempted to use it - just out of sheer curiosity.


No offense but i think this just proves that you don't know what type of torment transsexuals go through in their minds. It isn't about what they like or dislike from each sex. It's that they were born with an appearance of a sex they don't belong in. Looking at themselves in the mirror and hating what they see because they aren't a man and look like a man or they aren't a woman and look like a woman. They aren't doing it because they think one is better or they want to pick and choose out of curiosity. To them, biology plain got them wrong.
 
No offense but i think this just proves that you don't know what type of torment transsexuals go through in their minds. It isn't about what they like or dislike from each sex. It's that they were born with an appearance of a sex they don't belong in.

Of course I don't know what goes on in their minds - I don't even know what goes in yours. But I do know that some people in mental hospitals very seriously believe they are Napoleon for example. Human mind is capable of producing amazing delusions.

I do consider the possibility that transsexual people really feel their gender in a way that is different from my experience - and that they might be right about the treatment they are asking.

Future husband?

1. Penises. Disgusting.
2. Marriage is an industry for the religious.

So I don't understand the point you were trying to make, if you can explain it differently then maybe I might.

It's hard for me to explain better because of our age difference - sexuality is better experienced than explained :) Well you can think then of some people you really care - for example your mom and dad. Wouldn't it bother you if they suddenly started to act in reversed roles?
 
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Please stop using words and analogies that imply transsexuals are deluded or - as you just did - clinically insane. Your anecdotal thoughts are not somehow elevated over decades of clinical and psychological research and hands-on experience with the treatment of these individuals.
 
I can't really takes sides on this, because both annoy me.
The sociological implications of this, as I see it, are null either way.
There are more interesting things to think about, at least as far as I see it.

What I find at least remotely more interesting is the related legality.
Should a trans(gender,sex,whateverthefuck) person have the right to demand a change the legal recognition of their sex?
 
Yup.
 
Please stop using words and analogies that imply transsexuals are deluded or - as you just did - clinically insane. Your anecdotal thoughts are not somehow elevated over decades of clinical and psychological research and hands-on experience with the treatment of these individuals.

I don't imply that they are deluded or insane. It's just impossible to know because you cannot get into another mind and check things. I'm sorry if I used inappropriate wording.

Yet there were cases when people after surgery have regretted it even if they were completely convinced before - that's why there is a mandatory psychological chekup nowadays for this kind of treatment.

Edit: I didn't mention it before but I really emphasize with those people and have interacted with some. Their feelings of emotional pain and alienation are very real. They didn't wished for it or somehow made it up - for them it just happened and for no apparent reason. They wish for that feeling to go away, but it doesn't. Their expression of desired gender is so beautiful and magnificent - like they truly belong to it. They are one of the most open minded and good willed people and I would really wish for them to become happy. The question is what's the best way to help them?
 
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I can't really takes sides on this, because both annoy me.
The sociological implications of this, as I see it, are null either way.
There are more interesting things to think about, at least as far as I see it.

What I find at least remotely more interesting is the related legality.
Should a trans(gender,sex,whateverthefuck) person have the right to demand a change the legal recognition of their sex?
What would be a reason they shouldn't be able to change their sexual identity legally? If men and women had different rights legally, then changing the status of one's sexuality would have legal implications, but if the society's laws apply equally to both genders, I can't think of what the argument against the right to change gender status would be.
 
You know, I didn't even know there was a forum for INFJs until Google Reader alerted me to this thread--and seeing as I'm both a transsexual woman and an INFJ, I figured I might help clear up some things.

First, on the term transgender: most people use this as an umbrella term for anyone who feels that their internal gender does not match the gender society would assign them based on their physical sex. This includes cross-dressers, transsexuals, gender queer people, some drag queens/kings (not all of the latter consider themselves to be trans, but some do.) Trans is a convenient shorthand (generally) for transgender.

It's generally considered bad form (by us, at least) to use transgender as a noun--better a transgendered person, a trans man, etc. The construction trans space sex (trans man, trans woman) is pretty much univerally used for transsexuals, i.e. people who permanently live or want to live in the gender they weren't assigned at birth. YMMV on the importance of the space; I prefer it, because it makes trans a modifier of woman, rather than making me some scary creature: transwoman from Maaaarrrssss!

To lay aside some other things: it's not that trans people think that gender isn't socially constructed; I certainly do, as part of being a pretty ardent feminist. But we also believe--because it's happened to us--that a person's gender identity, i.e. that thing that tells her what gender she should belong to, is somehow innate. There are a lot of studies about just how this might be without anything you could take to court, but the evidence definitely points us in this direction. Also, there is the fascinating and tragic David Reimer case. At the age of eight months, David Reimer's penis was destroyed accidentally during circumcision; his parents, on the advice of Dr. John Money, a prominent sexologist, attempted to raise him as a girl, Brenda. But Brenda never felt like a girl; she never acted like a girl; hell, she even tried to pee standing up. Finally, in his late teens David was told the full story and began to live as a man.

The point being, something innate told David that he was male, not female, despite his parents, twin brother, schoolmates, etc. all telling him he was female. So it's not so simple as to say a person's gender is totally constructed or totally determinisitc.

People don't, in my experience, choose to be transgender--trust me, many times I wished I could take the blue pill and wake up, either male or female, but with a unity of gender and sex. (Ironically, my estrogen is a blue pill...) But it never worked. All my life I tried hard--and I guess with some success--to be the male person everyone wanted me to be; but I was never free of a constant feeling of being out of place, wrong in some fundamental way. Since I transitioned, I don't feel that anymore; in a lot of ways, I feel as if a huge weight has been lifted and I have the energy to accomplish so much more.

Not that it's easy; it's really hard to be both a woman and trans. But that never-ceasing chatter in my brain is finally gone.

I talk about these issues (& feminism, and other things) on my blog, The Second Awakening; there's an excellent blogroll as well on Questioning Transphobia.

Best,

C.L. Minou
 
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What would be a reason they shouldn't be able to change their sexual identity legally? If men and women had different rights legally, then changing the status of one's sexuality would have legal implications, but if the society's laws apply equally to both genders, I can't think of what the argument against the right to change gender status would be.

There are a lot of reasons, of course. One is to avoid simple prejudice: as somebody who's gone through a period where my gender on my IDs did not match the gender I presented, let me tell you: it's no fun.

Also, while many trans people aren't stealth (i.e. breaking all contact with their former lives/selves), I don't think the person who checks my ID at a bar, or the person running a credit check for a mortgage, should really have to see my medical history; which also leads back to the prejudice thing.

In most states in the US, you need to have the surgery to change major forms of ID; this is the requirement for Social Security and your passport as well. (Fortunately, some states are less restrictive, so people who are living their life as their new gender, but still waiting/unable/just don't want to have surgery aren't left in the cold.) Obviously, this isn't something done on a whim; the hoops you have to jump through are pretty significant.

And finally: seriously--I'm not a man; I don't look like one, I don't live as one, and I never really felt like one. So WTF should I have a "M" on my driver's license?
 
Yay, resurrecting a dead thread...

@slant

terms have evolved since this post... (i know, i know... i learned of them lately.)

Transsexual is no longer used. It's demeaning and as you can tell, a lot of people get confused by this.

Transgender is the correct term. As mentioned in my other more recent post on the same topic... it is really a social construct.

Transvestite is basically folk like Ru Paul, whom still identify as male... they're more commonly known as Crossdressers, Sissies, or Drag Queens... dependent on whether it is for fetish, (sissy) performance, (drag queen) or comfort. (CD.)

"Transgenders" "Trannies" and "Transgendered" are all really demeaning terms. "Trannies" are often used in porn industries. "Transgendered" is saying we already transitioned... even then it is kinda rude... transgenders is a way that poorly informed individuals use to denote plural. that's like saying peoples. usually one says people when speaking in plural.

Some folk use those terms solely for transphobic purposes...

Transphobia is not your fear of us... but the fear of what you would do to us. please imagine stepping outside knowing there is a high chance of being called derogatory names from random people who've never met you or even care to know...

:3 perhaps a few of you need some education.
 
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Yay, resurrecting a dead thread...

@slant

terms have evolved since this post... (i know, i know... i learned of them lately.)

Transsexual is no longer used. It's demeaning and as you can tell, a lot of people get confused by this.

Transgender is the correct term. As mentioned in my other more recent post on the same topic... it is really a social construct.

Transvestite is basically folk like Ru Paul, whom still identify as male... they're more commonly known as Crossdressers, Sissies, or Drag Queens... dependent on whether it is for fetish, (sissy) performance, (drag queen) or comfort. (CD.)

"Transgenders" "Trannies" and "Transgendered" are all really demeaning terms. "Trannies" are often used in porn industries. "Transgendered" is saying we already transitioned... even then it is kinda rude... transgenders is a way that poorly informed individuals use to denote plural. that's like saying peoples. usually one says people when speaking in plural.

Some folk use those terms solely for transphobic purposes...

Transphobia is not your fear of us... but the fear of what you would do to us. please imagine stepping outside knowing there is a high chance of being called derogatory names from random people who've never met you or even care to know...

:3 perhaps a few of you need some education.
My 15 year old self appreciates you correcting me with information my 28 year old self already knows
 
Me hiding from my own cringefest posts from 10+ years ago:

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