Transgenders | INFJ Forum

Transgenders

Discussion in 'Psychology and MBTI' started by slant, Jul 9, 2009.

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  1. slant

    slant Ruboobie

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    Anyone want to have a discussion about this? I've recently 'discovered' it, and I'm having a bit of a problem with the whole idea. Not a moral, problem, really. It's just that transgender and transsexual are two different things; so, that being said, who is to say that gender roles actually exist in a biological context? Sure, I identify myself better with male and I do female but that doesn't really mean anything unless gender roles are inherently decided at birth.

    Discuss.
     
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  2. bamf

    bamf Is Watching You
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    I have a family member who is transgender. I'm unsure what exactly you want to discuss but I am more than willing to.
     
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  3. Faye

    Faye ^_^
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    A lot of people think gender roles are based on your biological sex. They are wrong.

    A lot of other people don't know the difference between transgender and transsexual.

    Some people just want to act like the other gender. What is wrong with that?
     
  4. OP
    slant

    slant Ruboobie

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    Yeah- and I don't think that transgender is actually 'transgender'. It's a part of someone's identity, gender, that is. The problem I have is that transgender is assuming that gender isn't just a social construct. Gender is, in my opinion, a social construct. Sure some people are more inclined to dress 'female' and others 'male' but that doesn't make wearing makeup a female trait to an absolute. And it's quite gender biased, too. I dress like a male and nobody really cares. But when a man does it, it's wrong because it isn't their assigned gender. I don't understand the point of transgender- it's just encouraging gender roles, even though it's trying to be helpful by encouraging people to explore themselves.
     
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  5. Korg

    Korg ▄ ▄

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    Unless you differentiate gender from sex, I disagree. I mean, in the strictest sense gender denotes a specific reproductive role based on physical characteristics; ie whether one has a penis or vagina.

    That said, you probably mean gender role - behavioral norms applied to males and females in a given society. Right? In that case, I would agree that much of it can be accounted for with socialization, but not all. Hormonal differences between the sexes account for a lot differences in behavior.
     
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  6. Faye

    Faye ^_^
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    Oh I see what you're saying. I don't see though how the transgender people consider gender to not be a social construct. I would think that they do.

    It probably blurs gender roles more than crystallizes them.
     
  7. OP
    slant

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    In a previous thread I used gender as reffering to reproduction organs and I was correcting, being told that sex and gender are seperate. I was using what I thought was proper language.
     
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  8. NaeturVindur

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    As soon as I saw this thread there were some things I wanted to say. The thread isn't really heading in a direction where this would be continuous in the discussion, but I'm saying it anyway. They're the kind of things better said earlier rather than later.

    The differences (as I have gathered):
    Transvestite: One who wishes to appear (dress) in such a manner that does not fit with the gender role that would be assigned to their biological sex
    Transgender: One who wishes to act in a manner that does not fit with their biologically assigned gender role.
    Transsexual: One who wishes to be a sex other than their birth/biological sex.
    (if I'm wrong PLEASE correct me)

    Also, one misconception should be struck down. Being transvestite/gender/sexual does not have any bearing on what sex the person is attracted to. I know a lot of people who thought (I have since corrected them) that relationship were torn apart by trans[add suffix here]ism was because the trans- was essentially realizing that they were attracted to a sex that they did seem to be originally [because I know that made little sense: a man (person A) and a woman (person B) are in a relationship. Person A decides sie'd rather be a woman. these people thought that automatically meant that Person A had to now be attracted to men.) What actually tears these relationships apart is that the non-trans- person is now repulsed at being in a relationship with a person of this new sex (or one who exhibits gender roles assigned to that sex).

    I hoped that cleared some things up for some people.
     
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  9. Tamagochi

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    The way that I understand the differences between transgender and transsexual is this:
    • transgendered people do not believe that their assigned gender should define their behavior. They think and act as they please instead of what is "a proper way" for their gender.
    • transsexual people believe that their "true identity" is that of a different gender than their bodies. Based on that delusion they want to behave in a manner that is appropriate for the opposite sex.

    The latter are hard for me to understand, because how can one be so sure that they belong to either sex? If I thoroughly search my consciousness, there is no attached plaque "you're a man". The same is probably true for women. If I woke up tomorrow in a body of toaster - how can I be so sure that I am supposed to be a human? Maybe I just dreamed up the whole thing?

    But then maybe there are some ways to tell? Maybe I don't feel anything like transsexuals because I am in a correct body? And should I be placed in a different one - I would immediately notice the difference?
     
  10. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    If that's the acceptable definition for transgendered, then there needn't even be a definition for transgendered. It's modern free society.
     
  11. Onyrica

    Onyrica Community Member

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    So then, what is considered to be a transgendered woman or a transgendered man?

    A woman who doesn't cook, doesn't have children, sits on the couch and drinks beer while watching a rugby match?

    A man who preferes cooking, shopping, primping up and watches Eastenders?

    Pretty much, all of that relies on clich
     
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  12. Tamagochi

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    A person's gender (as well as any other quality) is only meaningful in a relation to another person. Somehow we feel that a couple where one partner acts "womanly" and the other "manly" is a better one than both people acted androgynously. Somehow we long for diversity in our relationships. That gives birth to social conditioning. So essentially we will never be free of it.
     
  13. bamf

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    If you were transsexual, you would have known it from an extremely early age.
     
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  14. NaeturVindur

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    Its not a delusion.Its a feeling, like a message from the subconscious. They don't feel like the sex that they were born to. You say you can't understand it, and you don't simply because you've never experienced anything like it. You've obviously never questioned what gender you belong to. You've never felt any other than feeling like a man, so you don't notice it at all. It would be as you didn't stand darkness simply because you've never seen light.

    Coonfession: I've considered transgenderism, but its not for me.
     
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  15. OP
    slant

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    I could easily be a transgender, would explain the awkward association with men who think I'm hitting on them when I'm not.

    But I have a problem associating myself with transgender because the termology implies that

    1. Yes, gender roles exist
    2. I am on the wrong side of the gender role. I'm not just expressing myself, but I specifically expressing a gender role that is not the gender role I am assigned to and I admit that there is a wrong and right gender role for everyone.

    I just can't will myself to believe that.
     
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  16. Julia

    Julia Community Member

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    I think I see what you are saying, Slant, in that the idea of "transgender" suggests that external behaviors are inherently the domain of one gender or the other. Why should dressing any particular way, having particular interests make you more or less representative of your gender?

    This is a complex topic because in some cases, the gender stereotypes become more pronounced with the idea of transgender. For example, if a man chooses to dress like a woman, there is a tendency to create an archetype of womanhood, rather than just wearing something that has personal appeal. Eddie Izzard is an awesome example of someone unbound by external social conventions of gender, but also not adopting the stereotypes of the opposite gender. He has an amazing sense of personal style.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I have good friends who are transexual and that does run very deep where their sense of their own body is that it is the other gender. They gain psychological relief by transforming their bodies into the other gender. I don't have the background to understand the full implications of how this comes about, but there is concretely demonstrable middle ground with sexuality.
     
    #16 Julia, Jul 9, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  17. NaeturVindur

    NaeturVindur Cuddlemaster
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    Eddie Izzard

    warning for the prude: he doesn't mind swearing.
     
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  18. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I cant stand eddie izzard. He's not attractive dressing as a woman. If they're not attractive, they just shouldn't.
     
  19. Eniko

    Eniko May snark if provoked
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    I have to object to the term delusion you use. It's a very real condition with a very real cure, if they were deluded then going through the entire process of switching wouldn't fix what's wrong with them. It's been proved again and again that it does, hence it is not a delusion.

    There's also been some compelling findings that show that the brains of these people may actually be wired like the sex they desire to be (regardless of hormone treatment) in terms of neural pathway distribution, which makes the case against "delusion" even stronger.

    Biology is a finicky thing. Considering all sorts of weird shit happens I don't think it's that hard to accept that an embryo could be "glitched" during brain development so their brain develops in such a way as to be wired like the opposite gender of their physical sex.

    TL;DR: Transsexuals are no more deluded about the sex they want to be as homosexuals are about the sex they want to sleep with, and it's a very inappropriate term to use.
     
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    #19 Eniko, Jul 9, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2009
  20. OP
    slant

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    Why not just say that nonattractive people shouldn't dress at all? They can torture people like you who'd claw their eyes out.
     
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