Transgender Children | INFJ Forum

Transgender Children

Peppermint

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Loving father wants daughter institutionalized because she's transgender


Transgender children
Interference with biological sexual development at the request of a child
Forcing children to adhere to gender roles.



"According to German-language website Taz, the girl, identified as Alexandra, is a happy kid who lives with her mom and likes pink, Harry Potter, and her stuffed unicorn. Since she identifies as a girl, she hopes to get hormone treatments to stop her from going through puberty (a treatment that's available and recommended for some trans kids, at least in the US). But her dad thinks her trans identity is actually a mental illness caused by her mom, and he wants his daughter institutionalized. The Berlin Youth Office apparently agrees, and according to IGLYO, Alexandra is about to be committed. Afterwards, the Youth Office allegedly recommends that Alexandra be forced to go through puberty as a man, and then plied with "football and cars" to make her more masculine. It also wants her placed with a foster family."


What do you think?
 
Was Alexandra born female or male? And how old is she?
 
As a trans person, I am horrified. ...It's 2012, and trans people still aren't considered human beings. We can't like what we like if it's not allowed for our gender role, apparently.

Imagine how soul-crushing it would be if someone picked your interests and clothing for you, forced you to adhere to that. You'd be nothing but a puppet and a robot, a ghost of that thing that they wanted you to be.

This, after reading an article the other day about forced sterilization of IS kids in Sweden (I believe it was), absolutely makes me ill.

[MENTION=1579]Odyne[/MENTION], why does it matter what her body looked like at birth? She likes what she likes and is who she is. Anatomy is not destiny.
 
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Don't get too worked up. I was not passing judgement. This is a discussion.



Her anatomy isn't fully developped yet, nor is her psyche. Eleven years old is really young. How do you, her mother, her father and herself know yet what she wants? (Note, I am simply wondering. Not arguing for or against.)

Imagine how soul-crushing it would be if someone picked your interests and clothing for you, forced you to adhere to that. You'd be nothing but a puppet and a robot, a ghost of that thing that they wanted you to be.

What if that's exactly what's being done to her? Her mother forcing her into a female role from the beginning instead of letting her be whoever she wants.

I do dislike that it is considered a "metal illness", and that she's being institutionalized. I also dislike the thought of a child going through all of that medical treatment at such a young age.



Consider the following scenario:

Kid removed for the mother's care, and is placed in an environment where they are able to develop and grow without any influence of gender roles. Kid goes through puberty and finds out they actually like being male instead.
 
As a trans person, I am horrified. ...It's 2012, and trans people still aren't considered human beings. We can't like what we like if it's not allowed for our gender role, apparently.

Imagine how soul-crushing it would be if someone picked your interests and clothing for you, forced you to adhere to that. You'd be nothing but a puppet and a robot, a ghost of that thing that they wanted you to be.

This, after reading an article the other day about forced sterilization of IS kids in Sweden (I believe it was), absolutely makes me ill.

@Odyne , why does it matter what her body looked like at birth? She likes what she likes and is who she is. Anatomy is not destiny.

Well it doesnt make sense to say who cares what her body looks like, and then offer up the solution to be a bunch of body altering medications/treatments instead of letting nature take its course.
 
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This article makes me so angry. This is crazy shit. And a fucked up society, trying to force people on roles they don't identify with. YEAH, let's make her watch football and cars so that she will become a male like we want her to be.

The people responsible should be sent to psychiatrists because they have issues that need to be sorted.
 
Well it doesnt make sense to say who cares what her body looks like, and then offer up the solution to be a bunch of body altering medications/treatments instead of letting nature take its course.

What is this nature, and why does it have to take it's course? What is this "not nature" and why is it "unnatural?" Please, this is a question I've always had a hard time understanding. Isn't it natural to want to be the one you want to be? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people were allowed to become what they want to be, rather than be forced on roles they don't want? And is nature more important than human happiness?

I have so many questions for you, hope you can answer them all.
 
.
 
I want to be a dragon.

I know you're mocking me, but to make a point, i'll take you seriously.

If you feel a general want to breathe fire during your daily life, if you want to wear and look like a dragon, if you don't identify yourself with your peers and feel different and alienated because you're not a human like everybody else, if you get angry because people don't respect your wish to be a dragon and treat you like a human,

Then I feel you. I would consider you a dragon anytime, pal. I'd hope you could live out the dragonair sides in you as much as possible, and if I knew surgery to make you to be a real dragon, I'd do it. However, science hasn't gotten there yet.

:m030:
 
I found this obituary as part of a college psych text I was exploring on my own time. It pretty much sums up my views better than I ever could. And yes I know this is one situation and one guy.... but to me it proves we ought not mess with nature. Take from it what you will.
Obituary: David Reimer, 38; After Botched Surgery, He Was Raised as a Girl in Gender Experiment
By Elaine Woo
L.A. Times Staff Writer
May 13, 2004

David Reimer, the Canadian man raised as a girl for most of the first 14 years of his life in a highly touted medical experiment that seemed to resolve the debate over the cultural and biological determinants of gender, has died at 38. He committed suicide May 4 in his hometown of Winnipeg, Canada.

At 8 months of age, Reimer became the unwitting subject of "sex reassignment," a treatment method embraced by his parents after his penis was all but obliterated during a botched circumcision. The American doctor whose advice they sought recommended that their son be castrated, given hormone treatments and raised as a girl. The physician, Dr. John Money, supervised the case for several years and eventually wrote a paper declaring the success of the gender conversion.

Known as the "John/Joan" case, it was widely publicized and gave credence to arguments presented in the 1970s by feminists and others that humans are sexually neutral at birth and that sex roles are largely the product of social conditioning.

But, in fact, the gender conversion was far from successful. Money's experiment was a disaster for Reimer that created psychological scars he ultimately could not overcome.

Reimer's story was told in the 2000 book "As Nature Made Him," by journalist John Colapinto. Reimer said he cooperated with Colapinto in the hope that other children could be spared the miseries he experienced.

Reimer was born on Aug. 22, 1965, 12 minutes before his identical twin brother. His working-class parents named him Bruce and his brother Brian. Both babies were healthy and developed normally until they were seven months old, when they were discovered to have a condition called phimosis, a defect in the foreskin of the penis that makes urination difficult.

The Reimers were told that the problem was easily remedied with circumcision. During the procedure at the hospital, a doctor who did not usually perform such operations was assigned to the Reimer babies. She chose to use an electric cautery machine with a sharp cutting needle to sever the foreskin.

But something went terribly awry. Exactly where the error lay -- in the machine, or in the user -- was never determined. What quickly became clear was that baby Bruce had been irreparably maimed.

(The doctors decided not to try the operation on his brother Brian, whose phimosis later disappeared without treatment.)

The Reimers were distraught. Told that phallic reconstruction was a crude option that would never result in a fully functioning organ, they were without hope until one Sunday evening after the twins' first birthday when they happened to tune in to an interview with Money on a television talk show. He was describing his successes at Johns Hopkins University in changing the sex of babies born with incomplete or ambiguous genitalia.

He said that through surgeries and hormone treatments he could turn a child into whichever sex seemed most appropriate, and that such reassignments were resulting in happy, healthy children.

Money, a Harvard-educated native of New Zealand, had already established a reputation as one of the world's leading sex researchers, known for his brilliance and his arrogance. He was credited with coining the term "gender identity" to describe a person's innate sense of maleness or femaleness.

The Reimers went to see Money, who with unwavering confidence told them that raising Bruce as a girl was the best course, and that they should never say a word to the child about ever having been a boy.

About six weeks before his second birthday, Bruce became Brenda on an operating table at Johns Hopkins. After bringing the toddler home, the Reimers began dressing her like a girl and giving her dolls.

She was, on the surface, an appealing little girl, with round cheeks, curly locks and large, brown eyes. But Brenda rebelled at her imposed identity from the start. She tried to rip off the first dress that her mother sewed for her. When she saw her father shaving, she wanted a razor, too. She favored toy guns and trucks over sewing machines and Barbies. When she fought with her brother, it was clear that she was the stronger of the two. "I recognized Brenda as my sister," Brian was quoted as saying in the Colapinto book. "But she never, ever acted the part."

Money continued to perform annual checkups on Brenda, and despite the signs that Brenda was rejecting her feminized self, Money insisted that continuing on the path to womanhood was the proper course for her.

In 1972, when Brenda was 7, Money touted his success with her gender conversion in a speech to the American Assn. for the Advancement of Science in Washington, D.C., and in the book, "Man & Woman, Boy & Girl," released the same day. The scientists in attendance recognized the significance of the case as readily as Money had years earlier. Because Brenda had an identical male twin, they offered the perfect test of the theory that gender is learned, not inborn.

Money already was the darling of radical feminists such as Kate Millett, who in her bestselling "Sexual Politics" two years earlier had cited Money's writings from the 1950s as proof that "psychosexual personality is therefore postnatal and learned."

Now his "success" was written up in Time magazine, which, in reporting on his speech, wrote that Money's research provided "strong support for a major contention of women's liberationists: that conventional patterns of masculine and feminine behavior can be altered." In other words, nurture had trumped nature.

The Reimer case quickly was written into textbooks on pediatrics, psychiatry and sexuality as evidence that anatomy was not destiny, that sexual identity was far more malleable than anyone had thought possible. Money's claims provided powerful support for those seeking medical or social remedies for gender-based ills.

What went unreported until decades later, however, was that Money's experiment actually proved the opposite -- the immutability of one's inborn sense of gender.

Money stopped commenting publicly on the case in 1980 and never acknowledged that the experiment was anything but a glowing success. Dr. Milton Diamond, a sexologist at the University of Hawaii at Manoa, had long been suspicious of Money's claims. He was finally able to locate Reimer through a Canadian psychiatrist who had seen Reimer as a patient.

In an article published in the Archives of Pediatric and Adolescent Medicine in 1997, Diamond and the psychiatrist, Dr. H. Keith Sigmundson, showed how Brenda had steadily rejected her reassignment from male to female. In early adolescence, she refused to continue receiving the estrogen treatments that had helped her grow breasts. She stopped seeing Money. Finally, at 14, she refused to continue living as a girl.

When she confronted her father, he broke down in tears and told her what had happened shortly after her birth. Instead of being angry, Brenda was relieved. "For the first time everything made sense," the article by Diamond and Sigmundson quoted her as saying, "and I understood who and what I was."

She decided to reclaim the identity she was born with by taking male hormone shots and undergoing a double mastectomy and operations to build a penis with skin grafts. She changed her name to David, identifying with the Biblical David who fought Goliath. "It reminded me," David told Colapinto, "of courage."

David developed into a muscular, handsome young man. But the grueling surgeries spun him into periods of depression and twice caused him to attempt suicide. He spent months living alone in a cabin in the woods. At 22, he prayed to God for the first time in his life, begging for the chance to be a husband and father.

When he was 25, he married a woman and adopted her three children. Diamond reported that while the phallic reconstruction was only partially successful, David could have sexual intercourse and experience orgasm. He worked in a slaughterhouse and said he was happily adjusted to life as a man.

In interviews for Colapinto's book, however, he acknowledged a deep well of wrenching anger that would never go away.

"You can never escape the past," he told the Seattle Post-Intelligencer in 2000. "I had parts of my body cut away and thrown in a wastepaper basket. I've had my mind ripped away."

His life began to unravel with the suicide of his brother two years ago. Brian Reimer had been treated for schizophrenia and took his life by overdosing on drugs. David visited his brother's grave every day. He lost his job, separated from his wife and was deeply in debt after a failed investment.

He is survived by his wife, Jane; his parents, and his children.

Despite the hardships he experienced, he said he did not blame his parents for their decision to raise him as a girl. As he told Colapinto, "Mom and Dad wanted this to work so I'd be happy. That's every parent's dream for their child. But I couldn't be happy for my parents. I had to be happy for me. You can't be something that you're not. You have to be you."
 
I'm not mocking, I think being a dragon would be awesome.

Now don't get me wrong here, I do want to be a dragon. That doesn't however mean that I would want to go through the operations necessary to actually become one. Surely transgender people relate to being human, which I thought was the whole point here, if there were no gender roles so to speak it wouldn't matter what your body looks like, we don't ONLY associate with our own sex. I am just as much a dragon now as I would be if I undertook surgery to become one, short of the whole breathing fire and flying part. But surely changing sexes doesn't offer benefits nearly as compelling as that.
 
Long article.

Super interesting, thanks for the share! :m105:

I'm not mocking, I think being a dragon would be awesome.

Now don't get me wrong here, I do want to be a dragon. That doesn't however mean that I would want to go through the operations necessary to actually become one. Surely transgender people relate to being human, which I thought was the whole point here, if there were no gender roles so to speak it wouldn't matter what your body looks like, we don't ONLY associate with our own sex. I am just as much a dragon now as I would be if I undertook surgery to become one, short of the whole breathing fire and flying part. But surely changing sexes doesn't offer benefits nearly as compelling as that.

:m175:
That's awesome.
 
I think it is typical of people who face discrimination to be hypercritical and oversensitive to subjects boardering on aspects that they directly relate to which can hinder discussion.

I agree with [MENTION=1579]Odyne[/MENTION]. 11 is a very young age and no one has information on whether the mother is providing a nurturing or abusive environment. I would hope the attempt by the authorities would be to put the child in a situation where they could develop their personality and lifestyle without harmful or biased input from either parent.

I also think that it becomes obvious when people want to "slant" a story they can and will. One small article on the subject, obviously on the side of "allowing the child to be transgendered" isn't enough information to assume one can make an informed position about this particular case.

In general, children should not be encouraged to medically alter their bodies. That means no breast implants, cheek implants, hormonal therapy or other operations that do not have a sound MEDICAL reason are really adviseable for someone so young. Now if they had the chance to take hormones that would enable them to grow in height or something that would be different. But something that has such a profound influence on the rest of their lives? Be serious. An 11 year old isn't responsible enough to be left alone in the house without supervision, let alone make a life long decision to mess with their hormonal future. I would think the idea of doing such a treatment was designed for individuals with actual medical conditions such as having both sex organs.
 
How does liking pink, Harry Potter and stuffed unicorns make someone identify as being female?


I don't understand transgenderism. Why does having preferences deemed by society to be either masculine or feminine make people want to change themselves, physically?
Why can't you be a little boy who likes pink and unicorns and still be a little boy? I think this is sad.
Parents should teach their children to accept and feel comfortable in their bodies...

I think someone in that boy's life is reinforcing that he should be a girl.
Who is planting the idea to go through treatment to avoid puberty in the boy's head? I doubt that kid came up with that on their own.
 
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What is this nature, and why does it have to take it's course? What is this "not nature" and why is it "unnatural?" Please, this is a question I've always had a hard time understanding. Isn't it natural to want to be the one you want to be? Wouldn't the world be a better place if people were allowed to become what they want to be, rather than be forced on roles they don't want? And is nature more important than human happiness?

I have so many questions for you, hope you can answer them all.

Nature is what happens naturally. For example, growing hairy, premature ejaculation, acne, cracking voice etc, which are what comes with male puberty. Halting that process with drugs, chemicals and surgery is not only unnatural, but there is no telling what long term health effects It could pose in the future. I am all about people being who they want to be, but you are confusing mental acceptance with physical acceptance and I think its ludicrous. If you are a female in your mind, then you are a female in your mind regardless of your body. What I object to, is allowing a confused 11 year old make a decision which she might regret the rest of her life when she is older. And yes, ALL 11 year olds are confused. it comes with the package. (no pun intended).
 
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These are all good questions and I can see you get confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexualism is basically to have a permanent idea in your head that you're in the wrong gender, this is not my gender. It leads to stress, discomfort, and transsexual people make up a large amount of the number of suicides in the world. Having this feeling is not something planted by others by necessesity, but something that is real for alot of people. It has existed all throughout history, there's records of it among native indians, in india and in many other places in the world.

If you have this conception as soon as you start becoming aware of your sex, and it lasts until you're 11, it's likely not going to change, and if you have to go through with puberty even though you don't want to, this is usually the time where people start considering suicide, growing breasts, menstruating, hair growth and all these functions you don't feel attached to, they hurt you, they cause you a great deal of pain. Being allowed to stop this, and take hormones to stop this change, helps people.

Also read Optimists post about being forced into a gender you don't fit into.
 
What I object to, is allowing a confused 11 year old make a decision which she might regret the rest of her life when she is older. And yes, ALL 11 year olds are confused. it comes with the package. (no pun intended).

I think you've missunderstood things. Taking hormones and similar to halt your growth is not the same as surgery, and not permanent. If you when you're 18 realise no, I'm a boy after all, (which is very unlikely from what I've read) you can still be a boy, however, hitting puberty and turning into someone you don't want, and deciding to change when you're 18, is usually alot harder.