Transexuality:Telling it from inside the weird place.
- Thread starter Chessie
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But this is the thing, slant - and correct me if I'm wrong - Moore and his team "decided" that certain intersexed individuals would be "named" male or female, and they "adjusted" children to match what they felt was the child's "proper" gender without asking (which doctors are doing today, still).
If gender doesn't matter, and if it isn't biological (i.e., just a concept), then why are many, many intersexed people upset about gender reassignment surgery? The concept of gender physically shows up on brain scans - folks who "feel" a certain gender have physical proof, in their brain, to back it up. Gender isn't just a cultural stereotype. It's actually a reality for many.
Now here's the thing: There are probably many who don't feel male or female, and feel asexual. I'm sure the brain could back that up. But this doesn't mean that we all must assume people have no gender, because that isn't reality either.
Female and male can be physically proven in the brain. And if that's true, I bet asexuality can be proven as well - the lack of feeling strongly male or strongly female.
If gender doesn't matter, and if it isn't biological (i.e., just a concept), then why are many, many intersexed people upset about gender reassignment surgery? The concept of gender physically shows up on brain scans - folks who "feel" a certain gender have physical proof, in their brain, to back it up. Gender isn't just a cultural stereotype. It's actually a reality for many.
Now here's the thing: There are probably many who don't feel male or female, and feel asexual. I'm sure the brain could back that up. But this doesn't mean that we all must assume people have no gender, because that isn't reality either.
Female and male can be physically proven in the brain. And if that's true, I bet asexuality can be proven as well - the lack of feeling strongly male or strongly female.
they call them 'agendered'. I just cant relate to these concepts and find them impossible from my perspective.I'm not saying they are not possible, as I've continued to state if people want to be trans then they can I approve of it, it in no way harms anyone, just from where I am standing it doesn't seem logical and I don't support the ideology.
*Nod*, okay (and thank you for the "agendered" correction. Learned something new!).
Then I have another question for you: What would make it seem logical, and how could you support the ideology? Or is more of an emotional reaction for you?
The logical reaction to feeling like you don't match what a male or female is supposed to be like would be to blur the gender lines. If what you identify of a female is that they dress a certain way; makeup dresses and whatnot and do certain activities like I don't know like chick flicks or something like that then you would just do that and blur the gender lines. Eventually men who wear dresses would become as common as how women are dressing in men's clothings. At some point it just would not become relevant to society whether you had balls, tits, both or whatever because none of them indicated a solid or direct gender identity, it would just be who you are, no one would be able to tell anymore and the lines of gender would be obsolete and irrelevant.
It's a wonderful idea, slant - that neither gender, nor race, nor culture needs to be viewed, but I don't think it's a probable one. The best thing about human beings are their differences, and the worst thing about human beings are their differences.
If we can revel in our differences and love them for what they are, then no; gender would be irrelevant. It wouldn't mean gender doesn't exist, however, because logically we're built differently and that's that. We assigned names as male and female to celebrate those differences. When people are different, we label them - that's what humans do.
Now the problem is when we see those differences as not-equal to another. That is wrong. But erasing gender, race, and culture won't change those beliefs. The only thing that will change them is true knowledge, love, and respect.
My two cents, though; not meant to invalidate what you're feeling.
If we can revel in our differences and love them for what they are, then no; gender would be irrelevant. It wouldn't mean gender doesn't exist, however, because logically we're built differently and that's that. We assigned names as male and female to celebrate those differences. When people are different, we label them - that's what humans do.
Now the problem is when we see those differences as not-equal to another. That is wrong. But erasing gender, race, and culture won't change those beliefs. The only thing that will change them is true knowledge, love, and respect.
My two cents, though; not meant to invalidate what you're feeling.
It doesn't matter what makes sense to you. It doesn't even really matter what research has shown.
What's important is that Lurker and other transexuals here have felt detached from their gender, and did what they felt the needed to to feel comfortable again. They aren't requiring you to be a transvestite, they're just informing you that they are.
What's important is that Lurker and other transexuals here have felt detached from their gender, and did what they felt the needed to to feel comfortable again. They aren't requiring you to be a transvestite, they're just informing you that they are.
again, never said that i would have it be so they wouldn't be allowed to express how they are so long as it doesn't hurt anyone
Gender can be intertwined with sex, though. I agree with you that we should eschew gender stereotypes if it gets in the way of us seeing the person, but if that person decides to embrace those stereotypes because they want to - or because it feels more like "them - then that's their choice.
I eat fried chicken because I like it - not because someone said I should. And no one should assume everyone who looks like me likes fried chicken. But that comes from understanding the individual, not the whole. When we enjoy people's company then it doesn't matter to us if they've labeled themselves or not. They are who they are, and if they want to be treated a certain way, then we have every right to respect that.
I eat fried chicken because I like it - not because someone said I should. And no one should assume everyone who looks like me likes fried chicken. But that comes from understanding the individual, not the whole. When we enjoy people's company then it doesn't matter to us if they've labeled themselves or not. They are who they are, and if they want to be treated a certain way, then we have every right to respect that.
Yes but isn't there a point where romantic involvement can become confusing? I mean being friends with somebody is one thing but being a romantic interest is another.
Again...I believe that I stated, maybe I didn't state it here come to think of it, just in my blog, but just because I don't support the ideology behind that decision doesn't mean I won't respect people and call them what they want to be called or treat them how they want to be treated. I just disapprove of the thought process behind it.
I think so too. Even though for our body it is man or female, I think in the way you feel it isn't so black and white. You can be super male or super female but you can also be something in between. For me I never felt completely a woman. I don't like shopping, dressing up, make up, I'm bad in languages and good in orientation which is considered a male thing. The only female thing I do is cry a lot
. I only consider myself female since I have a vagina but if we wouldn't have the distinction between vagina or penis, I would think I'm hybrid.I have read somewhere that the feeling of female/male is based on how your brain is built. (in short) A male brain is more focused on orientation and logic while a female brain is more focused on languages and intuition. Whether your brain is male or female depends on how much testosterone you god while you where in the womb. The more testosterone you got the more male you are going to feel and the better you will be in 'male things'. This would also explain transsexuality: male DNA but female brain.
slant said:
I hope it will come to this someday because that would mean that society has learned to accept people the way they are
woman wear mans clothes so why can't it be the other way around. Because our society is for some reason affraid of this. In some cultures transsexual people are very much respected and sometimes even worshiped
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In what way--? Do you mean the argument of "what should we call you" (man or woman)? Or something else?
I would think, that if someone was getting romantically involved with any other human being that they'd tell them up front if they've had surgery. I mean, I can "fudge" who I am on the internet dating sites if I wanted to, but sooner or later if it's getting semi-close I'd have to disclose my true self. It's not fair to not give that info up front, IMO.
Well that is what I mean in a sense, If you don't identify with male or female why would you tell someone that you biologically are one or the other? Wouldn't that go against your principles of how you see yourself? In your statement that they are "fudging" who they are isn't that in and of itself disrespectful to how they want to be perceived? I mean I would think they'd want to identify as either male or female rather than identify as transgender.
I think that is because there is such a huge stigma on same gender sex. It is the stigma that makes it nasty and wrong. From the moment that same gender sex is as much accepted as mixed gender sex, you wouldn't feel the confusion. Sex is an expression of love, the way you do it doesn't matter.
I think I see what you're saying; there is no "agendered" dating website or concept, I suppose, in American society. Me, I identify with the female gender but I don't identify with many of the so-called western stereotypes that go along with that: I hate makeup, I don't like shopping, I love tools and putting things together, I love car designs, etc. But my brain, and my body are in agreement with this: I feel female, and my body looks female.
If someone looks female but feels male, then technically in that person's mind, they *are* male. Same reversed: A person can look male but feel female. In those cases, call them what they feel. Regardless of what they look like. Biologically, there very well could've been a mix-up genetically, and the body no longer fits with the mind.
And although slant's ideal is an interesting prospect, I think one has to be confident and comfortable with who they are physically and emotionally before the entire concept of gender can be ignored.
What confuses me most is that trans people view their condition as a binary choice: it's either give in or resist the internal call. And both of them have a very high price tag.
Yet there's also a third option available - to accept their original body. I find it hard to believe that human psyche is able to accept and adapt to drastic physical changes - like loosing limbs and sensory inputs - yet gives up completely when there's something unexpected between the legs.
From what I have observed gender identification comes from a combination of three different sources:
1) Internal mental
2) biological / physical
3) social influence
You've discussed about the second and the third yet left out the first one. And that's what makes gender "real" for some people instead of "imaginary" as experienced by you.
Apparently internal gender identification originates in a form of a feeling, not a conscious decision. It works like an invisible lens: most "normal" people are not aware that it exists but if you're a trans then it becomes like a splinter in the brain. This nagging feeling eventually drives a person's psyche to dissociate from his or her original gender and seek the other one. Then it goes away.
Yet there's also a third option available - to accept their original body. I find it hard to believe that human psyche is able to accept and adapt to drastic physical changes - like loosing limbs and sensory inputs - yet gives up completely when there's something unexpected between the legs.
From what I have observed gender identification comes from a combination of three different sources:
1) Internal mental
2) biological / physical
3) social influence
You've discussed about the second and the third yet left out the first one. And that's what makes gender "real" for some people instead of "imaginary" as experienced by you.
Apparently internal gender identification originates in a form of a feeling, not a conscious decision. It works like an invisible lens: most "normal" people are not aware that it exists but if you're a trans then it becomes like a splinter in the brain. This nagging feeling eventually drives a person's psyche to dissociate from his or her original gender and seek the other one. Then it goes away.
but that is the problem. How do you know what gender someone feels like when you see the person for the first time. You automatically call someone "he" when the person looks male and that must be a shock to be called "he" when you feel like a she. It hits you in the face every time and reminds you every day of the problem and makes you feel abnormal.
And even when you know how they feel like it is still very difficult to call a male looking person "she". Because we make a gender judgement so easily. It is like looking at someones hand to see if he/she is married.
There was a transsexual person on Belgian ideals this year. A man who feels like a girl. If you didn't know he was male you would think he was a girl, so feminine he looked. He wears make up and high heels. I had so much respect for him and didn't felt awkward because he was so sincere about who he was and not compromising at all. He was who he was and many people can learn from it.
just because i dont identify as 'trans' doesn't mean that i'm somehow normal and don't dispute gender.