the Utopia | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

the Utopia

Milon:

I think that there will always be war and no utopia as long as we (all of us) are still empty and trying to fill the void. (With power, revenge, safety, ... whatever).

There can't be peace because I don't think that we will ever be completely happy in this world/life, except for some very few monks and saints.
 
merrytrees said:
No, I don't think you should or should not anything. I'm just curious as to how you've come to this conclusion. You didn't explain why. I'd like to know why.
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I was thinking about going to war one day and realized that I only think war is wrong because I dont like it. Me not liking it doesnt make it right or wrong. There must be a better reason if I am to be convinced. Along the same thought pattern there are some aspects to war that some think are positive. They usualy run along the lines of population control etc.

Naturally I dont want to be a victim of war due to my biological need to not be in pain and to avoid death so I can reproduce as much as possible.

How did you come to your conclusion that war is a bad thing?
 
uberrogo: War actually results in a population explosion. You've heard of the Baby Boomers? Being away from spouses/families for such a long period of time, and under such emotional stress, it's natural that soldiers coming home would want to relieve their stress and reconnect with their lovers. War doesn't reduce population in the long run; it only increases misery and poverty.
 
uberrogo said:
I was thinking about going to war one day and realized that I only think war is wrong because I dont like it. Me not liking it doesnt make it right or wrong. There must be a better reason if I am to be convinced. Along the same thought pattern there are some aspects to war that some think are positive. They usualy run along the lines of population control etc.

Naturally I dont want to be a victim of war due to my biological need to not be in pain and to avoid death so I can reproduce as much as possible.

How did you come to your conclusion that war is a bad thing?
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For being as short and concise as you are, you are a very deep thinker.

How did I come to the conclusion that it was wrong? As a theist, and particuliarly a Christian, I believe God created every single individual who has ever existed and who does exist because He chose them to exist. Even Hitler.
Even Shai Gar. (tee hee)

So, I see all people as divine beings. Pretty humbling to think of people this way and it makes me think twice about flipping them off for cutting me off, and much less to consider ending their lives.

Of course, were I an atheist I'd feel and think the same way. I'd see people as (for lack of a better word) a 'miracle' of odds. Your consciousness; the person you are coming from chaos makes you infinitely valuable to me because you are one in some astronomical amount throughout infinity. Basically, it just seems to me that life either way is sacred and deserved by all simply for their own merit of existing. I'm something of an aesthete and humans in all their complexity are intriguing and beautiful to me.

Does that make sense?
 
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Milon said:
uberrogo: War actually results in a population explosion. You've heard of the Baby Boomers? Being away from spouses/families for such a long period of time, and under such emotional stress, it's natural that soldiers coming home would want to relieve their stress and reconnect with their lovers. War doesn't reduce population in the long run; it only increases misery and poverty.
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It isnt the "pros" of war that brought me to this conclusion. It was my own lack of reasons not based on my feelings on the matter.

Im not sure what the baby boomers have to do with this but I dimly see the point you are trying to make. Maybe shed some more light on it. I am not convinced that being in a war results in coming home and automaticallty procreating more-so than being home that year or 5, 10, 20 years would.
 
An external adversary would speed up the unification, just look at Independence Day.:thumb:
 
merrytrees said:
For being as short and concise as you are, you are a very deep thinker.

How did I come to the conclusion that it was wrong? As a theist, and particuliarly a Christian, I believe God created every single individual who has ever existed and who does exist because He chose them to exist. Even Hitler.
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I could buy this. This has been presented to me before along the lines of it being sinful to murder because we are made in the image of God. I can accept things like this just because that is part of my personality I suppose. On some level I was thinking outside of the theological box. My opinion on the matter is a work in progress.

Even Shai Gar. (tee hee)
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redundant.

So, I see all people as divine beings. Pretty humbling to think of people this way and it makes me think twice about flipping them off for cutting me off, and much less to consider ending their lives.
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I wouldnt go as far as to say people are divine without some sort of disclaimer, but people are pretty important to God.

Of course, were I an atheist I'd feel and think the same way. I'd see people as (for lack of a better word) a 'miracle' of odds. Your consciousness; the person you are coming from chaos makes you infinitely valuable to me because you are one in some astronomical amount throughout infinity. Basically, it just seems to me that life either way is sacred and deserved by all simply for their own merit of existing. I'm something of an aesthete and humans in all their complexity are intriguing and beautiful to me.

Does that make sense?
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Yup. Although I disagree because to me, something randomly happening against all odds, doesnt make it extra special to me.
 
Quinlan said:
An external adversary would speed up the unification, just look at Independence Day.:thumb:
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Please tell me you're talking about the movie!
 
uberrogo said:
It isnt the "pros" of war that brought me to this conclusion. It was my own lack of reasons not based on my feelings on the matter.

Im not sure what the baby boomers have to do with this but I dimly see the point you are trying to make. Maybe shed some more light on it. I am not convinced that being in a war results in coming home and automaticallty procreating more-so than being home that year or 5, 10, 20 years would.
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I too have few non-emotional arguments against war, but I have 0 arguments for war.

I'll try to clarify my point for you. The Baby Boomers was (is) a huge generation. Before the economy bottomed out, there was a lot of concern over who would replace all the soon-to-retire boomers. There simply wasn't a large enough workforce to take their place. The Baby Boomer generation is so big because everyone came home from the war and made babies. I won't pretend to know all the psychological factors why that happened, I'll just say that it did happen. If the boomers were only the normal number of offspring that would have occured in the same amount of time, there wouldn't have been any concern whatsoever about a shrinking workforce and a growing retiree community - it would have balanced out on its own.

The only point I'm trying to make is that war is a really crappy way to reduce the population.
 
Milon said:
I too have few non-emotional arguments against war, but I have 0 arguments for war.

I'll try to clarify my point for you. The Baby Boomers was (is) a huge generation. Before the economy bottomed out, there was a lot of concern over who would replace all the soon-to-retire boomers. There simply wasn't a large enough workforce to take their place. The Baby Boomer generation is so big because everyone came home from the war and made babies. I won't pretend to know all the psychological factors why that happened, I'll just say that it did happen. If the boomers were only the normal number of offspring that would have occured in the same amount of time, there wouldn't have been any concern whatsoever about a shrinking workforce and a growing retiree community - it would have balanced out on its own.

The only point I'm trying to make is that war is a really crappy way to reduce the population.
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Do you have a link to a study that proved this? Where did you find this out at?
 
Merrytrees, from the Christian standpoint wars have a use to God.

… march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge! Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you," says the LORD. (Jeremiah 50:21-22)

"And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

So since I am a Christian, I am not conviced that war is all bad.
 
Well, in that case, sometimes I find myself wondering if I am more just than God. Esp. OT God. Perhaps that makes me evil in the eyes of Christians.. and God. But I'm not convinced war is 'good' based on your biblical example.
I still think war is evil.
 
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If you are completely happy, then power cannot bring you anything you don't already have.

In fact if one were happy and then given a lot of power, there would then be the worry about losing that power.
 
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Flavus Aquila said:
In fact if one were happy and then given a lot of power, there would then be the worry about loosing that power.
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ENTPs are happy when they're loosing power.

** I apologize... I'm having a joke at the expense of a typo. **
 
merrytrees said:
Well, in that case, sometimes I find myself wondering if I am more just than God. Esp. OT God. Perhaps that makes me evil in the eyes of Christians.. and God. But I'm not convinced war is 'good' based on your biblical example.
I still think war is evil.
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You're probably evil.
 
War is not, I believe, automatically evil. Let's face it. There are some very unpleasant people out there, and they need to be removed. When those people gather large groups of unpleasant people to help them, well, war is a natural next step. As far as this issue is concerned, it doesn't matter what people think. It doesn't matter what people believe. It matters what people DO. The Nazi's would have been alright if they had just left other people alone. They would have just been a group of people who believed that certain characteristics were better than others. That's fine. It's when you start killing and torturing people that there's a problem. Saddam was an A-hole. That's ok. Some of my best friends are A-holes. But once he started torturing and killing his own people, and attempting to brutally expand his own empire, well, there you go. Take the KKK. They thought of the White race as being superior to any other. Fine, whatever. They like to stand around in pointy hats around bonfires, which is a little silly, but ok. The problem started when they put poeple IN the bonfires. Not good.
 
so... this sets the stage for the fundamentalists in their general reactions...

hence the lobbing of each own's beliefs onto others, and thus create war...

why not establish an understanding and the Utopia instead?
 
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