The Government

[Satya]

In some recent threads, I've encountered the typical ideology that bigger government is always bad and that government is inherently intrusive and restrictive to freedom. I would not be much of a critical thinker if I did explore why, beyond simple value judgments, people have these feelings regarding the government. So a few questoins...

How much government is too much government?
Who should have the power? (the Constitution, the people, etc.)
How does the government obtain its power?
When does the government begin to infringe upon freedom?
Will the government inherently grow bigger until it collapses?
Is all government inherently corrupt, or is some of it authentic?
Do you fear the government?
Why is big business less of a threat than government?
Finally, how did you come to these conclusions?

 

[BenW]

How much government is too much government?

Any.

Who should have the power? (the Constitution, the people, etc.)

The people, as per the non-agression axiom.

How does the government obtain its power?

Coercion.

When does the government begin to infringe upon freedom?

When it violates voluntarism.
So, basically, anything and everything the government does.
I guess the root of all this would be taxation.

Will the government inherently grow bigger until it collapses?

Doubtful. Before inevitable collapse, the government will dwindle down somewhat slowly. I could be wrong though, it all depends on a certain few technologies, specifically pseudonymous banking.

Is all government inherently corrupt, or is some of it authentic?

A purely voluntaryist government is perfectly acceptable.
Or as it's known to the layman, a "business".

Do you fear the government?

Yes.

Why is big business less of a threat than government?

Most of the evil things corporations do can be directly attributable to government involvement.
Also.
Businesses, big or small, lack the opacity to make themselves unaccountable for their actions.

You ship a parcel through UPS, it gets lost, you can then "sue the bastards", as it were.
You ship the same package with USPS, it gets lost, and you're SOL.

Finally, how did you come to these conclusions?

Reason, time, reading, debating, and listening.

 

[Duty]

I was going to make a response, but the amount of work I'd have to put into the second question was becoming staggering. I was starting to make a list of categories that represent the biggest societal problems, and then I was going to, by process of elimination, relate as many demographics as I could think of to how they would solve each individual problem. The demographic that would be most effective at solving the problems while remaining within predefined moral parameters would be my candidate.

However, just thinking of all the problems and giving them a semi-rigorous definition would be exhausting, let alone thinking of every demographic that could be in control and then examining their relation to every listed problem. It is more the work of a book then a forum post...

 

[IndigoSensor]

The problem is not the government, it is human nature blown up onto the large scale that is the problem.

 

[Roger]

The problem is not the government, it is human nature blown up onto the large scale that is the problem.

Right and another thing, public makes choice of their government.

 

[Stu]

my two cents

How much government is too much government?
Depends
Who should have the power? (the Constitution, the people, etc.)
the constitution
How does the government obtain its power?
the constitution
When does the government begin to infringe upon freedom?
the moment it exercises its power
Will the government inherently grow bigger until it collapses?
no
Is all government inherently corrupt, or is some of it authentic?
yes, yes
Do you fear the government?
yes
Why is big business less of a threat than government?
it is not
Finally, how did you come to these conclusions?
intuition
__________________

 

[enfp can be shy]

The people, as per the non-agression axiom.

Somehow this guy doesn't seem like the most peaceful man on Earth, even though he hasn't really come here to beat the shit out of me:

About me and governments, I didn't realize before just how corrupt and unjust any system of government usually is, but that includes big business. Both are very connected. And it's inevitable. Power needs power needs power etc.

p.s. I have 666 posts, and have just become "Devil" - that's what these cheeky ENTP admins have integrated in the system. lol. Look under my username.

 

[BenW]

The picture is even more meaningful, if you see the full frame.

 

[slant]

I think that my only rule regarding government that the government not be ruled by the mormon church, because look what happens: http://priscusforem.blogspot.com/2008/04/how-mormons-control-utah.html

And also I would like a government that didn't rely on poverty threshold standards invented in the 1960's that account mostly on how much food costs, not emphasizing the rise in housing and not adjusted to the area in which a person lives.

 

[Satya]

The most insidious thing is that the Mormon Church has it's greedy little hands on the Public School system. All junior high and high schools in the state of Utah are arranged so that there is a Mormon seminary building either right next door or across the street. Essentially, the Mormon kids receive extra religious instruction in these buildings during the school day. What happens, is that the public schools literally empty out at one point, leaving only a handful of non-Mormon kids to just sit around and twiddle their thumbs for an hour or two. Many kids get sick of being alone, or sick of being part of the "other kids", and end up going with the Mormon kids.

This happened to me in high school. They had a seminary right outside the school building and you could register to take seminary for one of your periods. Strangely enough, I asked one kid questions about what they believe and they were happy to tell me, but someone somewhere must have been watching because they came back the next day and apologized and told me I would have to look to one of the local Bishops for questions on church beliefs. Strangely enough, after that incident I got a lot of invites to events with the LDS kids, like picnics and meet ups at the local diner.

 

[slant]

This happened to me in high school. They had a seminary right outside the school building and you could register to take seminary for one of your periods. Strangely enough, I asked one kid questions about what they believe and they were happy to tell me, but someone somewhere must have been watching because they came back the next day and apologized and told me I would have to look to one of the local Bishops for questions on church beliefs. Strangely enough, after that incident I got a lot of invites to events with the LDS kids, like picnics and meet ups at the local diner.

And the person who is watching, that's the spy network they got going on. Pretty nasty system actually. But I'm sure thats what happens when any religion is overly involved in the government, no?

 

[the]

One of the reasons I don't like the US government is that it has power because it seems like everyone is supporting it when in reality it is just a monarchy with a million heads. It is its own creature. It is a king whos thoughts are made up by senators and congressmen whos thoughts in turn are decided by their environment and noisy citizens who write the most letters. What kind of American would really vote to pay taxes? I don't think any would. But the government says it is best for us. Everyone is immediately convinced that either A. People are really supporting paying taxes, or B. they can't fight the government who holds the power of the law in one hand, and the power of the threat of violence in the other.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

I personally believe that best-fit government depends on the people and place being ruled, i.e. for a very small group, communism is good, but for this-size group with this-type of need and these-kinds of ideals, this-and-this type government would be better.

Personally, I just like to keep the government the hell outta my business, but that's just me. As for everyone else, it's a very complicated question.

 

[BenW]

The vast majority of people with the ability to critically assess the government have been conditioned and beaten into accepting the notion that government is a "necessary evil".

[youtube]7o4kiWpqoeg[/youtube]
FYI; The above video has nothing to do with Ron Paul, it is an excerpt from a Murray Rothbard book.
I think it's supposed to be ironic, since Paul is a minarchist.

 

[enfp can be shy]

That's true about governments, but I also fail to see how you can let business go, without itself becoming the same thing. It's a matter of time, before it does the very same again. They say monopolists are the bad guys. Well, they were the good guys of yesterday. Someone questioned authority, becoming authority (like Einstein complained about himself). Inevitable and already bores me to watch it.

 

[Satya]

The vast majority of people with the ability to critically assess the government have been conditioned and beaten into accepting the notion that government is a "necessary evil".

[youtube]7o4kiWpqoeg[/youtube]
FYI; The above video has nothing to do with Ron Paul, it is an excerpt from a Murray Rothbard book.
I think it's supposed to be ironic, since Paul is a minarchist.

What a dumb video. The power in our government does not go to the "Jones Family" it goes to the Constitution.

Also, the assumption that all that is evil in business is a product of government, is inane. Simply by serving their own interests and ignoring the externalities of their production (pollution, hurt workers, increased polarization of distribution of wealth, etc.) causes a lot of evil that the government need not be the least bit involved in.

 

[BenW]

The constitution is just a piece of paper, that can be amended by, -guess who-, any time they feel like it.

And in order to see how seriously the government really takes the constitution, one needs not look any further than the current and previous presidencies, and the never-ending stream of unconstitutional technicalities that fly by various Congressional committees, constantly.

Every "right" you think you may have can be taken away whenever convenient.

 

[Satya]

The constitution is just a piece of paper, that can be amended by, -guess who-, any time they feel like it.

The American people? 3/4ths of the states and 2/3rds of their elected representatives in Congress? It's right there under Article V. You realize we live in a Constitutional Republic, right?

And in order to see how seriously the government really takes the constitution, one needs not look any further than the current and previous presidencies, and the never-ending stream of unconstitutional technicalities that fly by various Congressional committees, constantly.

List?

 

[BenW]

The American people? 3/4ths of the states and 2/3rds of their elected representatives in Congress? It's right there under Article V. You realize we live in a Constitutional Republic, right?

We can call ourselves whatever we want; actions speak louder than words.

List?

I couldn't even begin to.

One of my favorite examples, though, and one that should give you a rough idea of the scope...
Tax bills that go through the Senate (written therein).
Only the House can originate tax-related legislation.
Yet, it happens all the time, and nobody really gives a shit.

 

[Satya]

We can call ourselves whatever we want; actions speak louder than words.

I couldn't even begin to.

One of my favorite examples, though, and one that should give you a rough idea of the scope...
Tax bills that go through the Senate (written therein).
Only the House can originate tax-related legislation.
Yet, it happens all the time, and nobody really gives a shit.

Where does it state that tax bills can only be written in the House? Also, even if they are written in the Senate, they still have to pass both houses to become legislation.