[PUG] - The "English Only" Movement | Page 5 | INFJ Forum

[PUG] The "English Only" Movement

If reading a legal document in a language you understand is hard, imagine reading it from the standpoint of a ELL. It would be like an English speaker reading a Spanish book written in French.

These people want to learn English, but access to such classes is continuously underfunded, cut, an inappropriately brief. Do we just say "screw it" in the mean time and completely give up? Printing important documents in other languages is important not only for immigrants, but also for US citizens.


I understand, I am not disagreeing that it would be a good idea. I would love for it to be a great experience for anybody moving here but what I am trying to say is it plausible? Should we really be focusing on the education of immigrants and teaching others English when our own education system is horrible underfunded and those born here are not being educated to a level needed to compete globally. With everything else into consideration spending the money and time when we have some many other issues makes this not a good idea.

It's just not a perfect world and the priorities have to be considered.
 
I understand, I am not disagreeing that it would be a good idea. I would love for it to be a great experience for anybody moving here but what I am trying to say is it plausible? Should we really be focusing on the education of immigrants and teaching others English when our own education system is horrible underfunded and those born here are not being educated to a level needed to compete globally. With everything else into consideration spending the money and time when we have some many other issues makes this not a good idea.

It's just not a perfect world and the priorities have to be considered.

I hope you don't mind me commenting on this; I know it was addressed to Mf. It's just that I think what you said is really a defining point of this debate. Aren't immigrants 'your own', as well? (They're not exactly visitors.)
 
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I hope you don't mind me commenting on this; I know it was addressed to Mf. It's just that I think what you said is really a defining point of this debate. Aren't immigrants 'your own', as well? (They're not exactly visitors.)


No I don't mind. I want everybody's input in this. Yes they are, if legal. Not legal is another story totally and I am not going to go into that. I am only saying towards legal immigrants just to clear that up in case of confusion. They do become part of the US and are very important but to me the priority should be to educate the children. Adult immigrants and such are important in their own way but I think children are far more valuable because of potential. I would rather see our money going to funding the education program for everybody and also the children of immigrants than the adult immigrants. As adults, they are at a disadvantage when it comes to learning but their children can be educated to be college graduates that can compete at a global level. In a way it is sacrificing the parents to make sure the children and the future is brighter. A large amount of immigrants come for that very reason. So I think at this point with the problems in our system, the focus should be on not fixing it in the short term by educating people who don't have the skills to contribute much beyond minimum wage jobs. Not that they can't learn and get a college education but it would be far far more difficult and they would have to be self motivated in that. It
 
For me the heart of this debate has to do with our movement toward a more conservative bent politically. The "English Only" movement has a flavor of "exclusion" to it that makes me leery. When times are tough economically, historically we begin to see a shift toward sections being overeager to "protect" the American Way of Life which typically involves pointing fingers at various racial/cultural groups and blaming the ills on them. Mexicans take our jobs. The Chinese are taking our jobs. All the criminals are coming from Mexico. Those dang Canadians are too nice. Whatever. It is the same old smoke and mirrors. If we want to compete in a global economy we have to have global skills and bi-lingual education is key. If we want people to chase their tails and ignore what big business and the ultra-wealthy are doing, then we trot out abortion or immigration or racism or some other hot button topic and get everyone spinning their wheels about it rather than working toward the idea of redistributing wealth and income which will benefit the majority of mankind.
 
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[MENTION=2710]jimtaylor[/MENTION]

You shtick about investing in the future has merit but you fail to acknowledge investment into the current as well. Your hypothetical instance of a homeless child and a homeless adult is flawed; what if that child the very next day is hit by a car and killed? What if that adult is savant? Reductionist thought of choosing people can be morally problematic and one what if creates a slew of others.

You say it isn't feasible for us to go through and put things in duplicate languages, teach adults; as far as I'm concerned, a nation that spends 8+ fold more on military spending, starting an unnecessary war, outsourcing the military infrastructure to contractors, and an equivalent amount of money on espionage as they do on national education has not place talking about not being "feasible". As long as people have no issue spending money like a kid in a candy store I have no qualms about spending money to help our citizens and immigrants.
 
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@jimtaylor

You shtick about investing in the future has merit but you fail to acknowledge investment into the current as well. Your hypothetical instance of a homeless child and a homeless adult is flawed; what if that child the very next day is hit by a car and killed? What if that adult is savant? Reductionist thought of choosing people can be morally problematic and one what if creates a slew of others.

You say it isn't feasible for us to go through and put things in duplicate languages, teach adults; as far as I'm concerned, a nation that spends 8+ fold more on military spending, starting an unnecessary war, outsourcing the military infrastructure to contractors, and an equivalent amount of money on espionage as they do on national education has not place talking about not being "feasible". As long as people have no issue spending money like a kid in a candy store I have no qualms about spending money to help our citizens and immigrants.


Valid points. In no way shape or form do I think our government always makes the right decisions. It's true you don't know if that child is going to be hit by a car. You also don't know that the sky is going to open up and rain flaming balls of crap. It becomes about percentages and chances are that the child is going to benefit more than the adult and overall society will benefit more. I do understand current investment is good and I don't know how many times I have to say it. I would very much like it to both but the money isn't there and the government isn't increasing money to there. They are off wasting it on other crap. If they could fund both I would be all for it but since they don't I think future investment has far more value than current investment. The thing is the government spends like kids in a candy store when it comes to stupid things and are sticklers when it comes to things that matter like this. Again in a perfect world they would spend our money on us but they don't so we have to make hard choices on who gets left out.
 
I guess and that it irks me that you make logical choice and validate it through arbitrary prospective potential... And until I got halfway through college the known prospective potential for me by your general thoughts would have screwed me.

Justify as you will but if i had $6 to give they both would get three. Human suffering transcends worth/potential.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

This nice document says so as well.
 
I guess and that it irks me that you make logical choice and validate it through arbitrary prospective potential... And until I got halfway through college the known prospective potential for me by your general thoughts would have screwed me.

Justify as you will but if i had $6 to give they both would get three. Human suffering transcends worth/potential.



This nice document says so as well.

You make valid points and I understand your perspective but I am going to have to agree to disagree on this. I would invest in the child because the child has a greater chance to benefit from the money or time than the adult. They both have the same need and are in as bad a situation but the adult because he has reached more of his learning potential has more skills than the child at the point to be able to survive easier but his potential to learn more and provide more to society is less. The child having learned very little because of the lack of life experience has more potential to learn more because of how the brain functions and therefore I see more value in investing in the child because the child will benefit more and society will as well because there is a higher percentage that the child will provide more in the long run versus the short run. You gain nothing from investing in the child at the moment but the potential in the future is greater. I guess it is like deciding; if you had egg, would you rather eat now because you are hungry and get the current satisfaction or try to raise it and have the potential to be fed the rest your life. Of course their is the chance the egg dies(you can still eat it) and you do get something no matter what if you eat the egg but the payoff is little and only lasts in that moment. There is also something to be said when there is hope for something better than just being fed in the moment. This is my indivdual opinion and what I would do but the point you bring up with equality is good. The government should do something different from what I would do.

Now to address your other points and get back to the main point of this argument. Yes the declaration of independence says all men are created equal yet sadly not one single person is the United States is treated equal. When a persons who's parents are as well off is given a free ride to college is that a fair to the middle class American who has to pay for it on his own; all other things equal. In the bigger picture of the parents income and overall view of the separate people's families; it is fair, but it is not fair to the college student who now has a lot of debt. If all men are created equal then no favor should be given to anybody in any form. If you do something for someone you have to do something for everybody. If everybody is created equal there would be no specialized laws helping immigrants or granting any more money to them, because it is not equal. It is a double edged sword. Equality? That means no person gets anymore help then another. Also how can you make a private company that is run by an individual change to the immigrants? Does that not violate their rights? You are only considering one party in this situation not the the whole. The government could change and do everything in multiple languages; like it does, but to expect private companies to do so would be violating the rights of the companies and the individuals that run them.

As you said the declaration of independence states that "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness". It does not state that the government is directly responsible for providing these things. They are simply not to inhibit them. By saying English is the official language then yes it would inhibit this right and again I do not believe it should be the official language. There should be no official language. It is not up to the government to make everybody happy. That is the trade off for what the founding fathers wanted. The country was founded on the principal that with hard work and determination you could achieve anything and the government up to this point is not limiting these people by anyway. Could they go out and pay for someone to teach them the majority language of the country? Yes. Is it fair for them to ask for some help from the government? yes I think so but I don't think it is the governments sole responsibility to do this. It is as much up to the individual as it is the government.

The founding fathers when writing this document came from all backgrounds and collaborated to make the document. Something should be said about the fact that it was written in English. The supreme law of the land and the standard by which the country was founded is written in English and was not translated for the multiple languages being spoken back then. The great melting pot of America has always taken bits and pieces of each culture that has lived here to make it what it is today. Those that immigrated here in the 1800's learned English not because they where told they had to but because it is beneficial to learn the local language. You cannot move around the fact that English is the majority language of the United States and has been for a long time. Through the entire history of the United States there is thousands of examples of cultures migrating together and speaking their home language together but learning English. My family is an example of this. I am third generation immigrant. My grandparents came over here fleeing from the Nazi's because they apposed Hitler and though I do not speak German fluently it is still spoken often in my household. My grandparents, especially my grandmother who didn't know any English never once held it against anybody for that fact that she had to learn it. She came over here had 6 kids and got her doctrines degree in teaching at the same time.(FYI Her story was on discovery channel) Adaptation is a part of immigration and by creating individual laws that are specialized to each group of immigrants it is not encouraging assimilation, it is discouraging it. You are not asking them to become a part of our society you are saying you can just move here and keep everything the same, you are just in a new land.

That is not assimilation and that does not encourage the principal that we are all equal or Americans. That breads the principal that we are all different and not equal. My blood is German, my ancestors are all German but I am American. I do not count myself as a part of that culture because I am not and that is how it should be. Do I still retain parts of that culture? Yes, but I also bring in many parts of America's culture into my family. Assimilation is a part of immigration and the process will be even slower if you encourage people to keep everything they brought from their home. Encouraging immigrants to speak the majority language is better in the long run than limiting them by having to adapt to them. If Spanish becomes the majority language than I am going to expect to have learn Spanish, if Deutsch becomes the majority language I will have my family to teach me it, if any language is the majority language than it should be expected that people should adapt to it. What you are saying is more detrimental than helpful. You are not helping them by babying them and holding their hand through every step. Sometimes you just have to let someone learn from their hardships because they become stronger. Teaching immigrants English is the best solution to this and doing so does help society like you stated because it creates competition but it should also be up to the individual as well as the government to do this. Money and time should not be wasted on those who do not want to learn the majority language.

Another quote. "You give a man a fish, you feed him for the day; you teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime." So like I said, I agree with much of what your saying but disagree about how to get there. In any case, making any language official is a terrible idea. Giving special treatment to immigrants by posting many languages is also not a good idea. Teaching them English and encouraging them to feel like Americans and part of the country is most beneficial. Programs within schools should be encouraged to teach English plus many other languages and no program should get anymore funding than another. Those programs teaching English to non-speaking English should be getting as much funding as those teaching English speaking students any other language because again it creates competition which encourages growth. Also if there are free programs being sponsored by the government to teach non-English speaking people English, than there should be free programs for anybody who wants to learn another language because that is equality. No specialized treatment to anybody by the government. Individual companies and individuals on the other hand do not apply to this because it violates their rights given to them by the declaration of independence. You want equality than that is equality. Not one person will benefit more than the other unless of course they motivate them-self to do so. Some people are born into better situations and that is part of being in a capitalistic society. Work hard, become educated, earn money and your kids will be born into a better situation and if they do the same thing than their kids will be born into a better situation.
 
Firstly, I do believe that anyone who wants to immigrate to a new country should actually bother to learn the language of that country, this goes also for english speakers who think they can get by by forcing non-english speakers to speak English in their own country when they live there.

I also think that certain job avenues should be closed to people without good english skills, especially those where they must deal with english speakers.

However I do not believe that anyone should be denied the necessary documents that they may need to function in society. That is just cruel and unnecessary.

Not only that, but such a movement would pretty much kill learning other languages in schools, because most kids wouldn't be headed out of the country for long periods of time. Learning other languages mean that people are also learning about other cultures, and hopefully learning to respect other cultures and beliefs, and we need more of that in today's world.