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@Asa I was just re-reading this thread and my answers to your questions are taking a huge amount of space so I've tidied them up inside a spoiler:
Yes - sort of. I can certainly get spaced out if I have to do a lot of Se and I'm no use to anyone for an hour or so at least if that happens. If I'm doing a lot of work needing thinking or Si then I concentrate deeply and get irritated if I'm interrupted. I didn't show this at work because I'm can be an awful people pleaser and hate conflict so I could easily bring my irritation home. There was a lot of multi-tasking needed in the kind of jobs I did, and in some of them I was creating a role at the same time as delivering it - it's easy to run on adrenalin in this sort of situation, and it's easy to get a bit addicted to that, which leads to anxiety that you can't switch off easily. The situations that gave me the greatest difficulty were very extraverted demands - having to go "on-stage" - or those that involved conflicts, particularly where it was necessary for me to actually create them.
Yes, but my wife is probably intj so we both like a quite life and we get lots of nice introvert withdrawal! Of course when our children were young that was a different story, but we are of a generation where you could do OK with just one salary coming in and she stayed home until they were older. My wife has a chronic and serious anxiety disorder that has coloured our lives strongly - it's an awful condition. I'd say that our greatest challenges were at home rather than at my work. When she was going through bad patches it was the company and support I got from my colleagues that kept me going.
I think Ni is at the heart of mathematical creativity. A great mathematic theory is as beautiful on its own ground as any work of art and the insight that went into conceiving of it is probaly closely related to how a great piece of music is created - the people who do the big ticket creating are a rare breed though. Mostly what you see as a common or garden mathematician is the equivalent of a musical score and training in how to read and play it, which starts with Se, Si and Ti. Ni looks on and if you are lucky you get insight into what lies behind the exposition. If that doesn't happen, you are stuck with a partial understanding at best using Ti only. This is why some people seem to be naturally gifted at maths and find it easy while others struggle to make any sense at all beyond straightforward arithmetic. I think the most gifted mathematicians are using virtuoso Ni/Ti in a tight embrace, and expressing their ideas using Te - with a few of the more poetical ones using Fe too.
I think it's Ni/Fe that kicked the interest off. It started a few years back when a cousin asked me about one of my grandfathers (her great grandfather). I found the story I'd been told was not quite right, so I got curious, went exploring and got hooked. There are a lot of drivers - I think I respond most enthusiatically to something like this when it appeals to me in several dimensions and at several levels all at once. So to start off with there was just plain glorious nosiness about long departed family and their scandals who I knew as a child ! It turns out one of my great grandfathers was a drunk who took his family to America - his wife came back home 4 years later, pregnant and with their 4 children, leaving him behind. She must have had an awful time of it. He turned up on her doorstep in the UK 20 years later, still drunk, and my grandfather and his brother kept him drunk, took him to Liverpool and shoved him on a boat back to the USA. Turns out this story is more or less true and I found the ship manifests that show him coming to the UK, and going back home shortly after! How could anyone resist digging deeper after that - I've got back to early 1600s on my mother's side. There's a steep and rewarding learning curve to get to grips with the computer databases like Ancestry, and the PC package I use to hold my family tree, lots of old cracked and faded family photos I've scanned and restored and made into a photo book. There's a lot of grunt work simply capturing information and systematically organising it into my database. There's a lot of detective work when you go looking for something elusive and the eureka when you find out something totally unexpected. Ne gets used quite a lot to find ingenious ways around brick wall obstacles in tracing ancestor lines, Ni and Ti hold the big picture keep the whole lot from collapsing into a chaos of unstructured data.
Oh I over-complicate everything I touch. It comes from Ni - I have this very clear Ni perception of something that I can apprehend in an instant, but to turn it ito words ... I go on and on and on. And I'm a perfectionist and rework things over and over. As I get older I'm becoming less tolerant of this need to express my Ni verbally - it's mostly not verbal. One of the great things about the forum is that there are plenty of people who know what I mean without having to go through a lot of explanation. I'll have to work a bit at this though.
I don't actually like giving Se much conscious space, I find it very tiring. I'm usually living in my head and I trust my unconscious to handle the Se for me a lot of the time. It works out reasonably well as long as I'm on familiar territory - I've got to watch out when I'm not because I become accident prone and things keep developing evil personalities and attacking me. My favourite moments though are if I get to blend Ni and Se together - that fills the world with magic for me, as though it's all lit up with a mystical light. One of my hobbies is photography and the few seconds when I'm framing a picture is another magical belnd of Ni and Se - Se grabs what's out there and Ni gives me the best composition pretty effortlessly. Oh there's a high failure rate of course, but that's how it is when you get the magic shots.
This for me with a vengeance too. I can get to a point where I don't know what my own feelings are because I'm picking up other people's broadcast feelings and I go into please-you mode. Like for you, it can completely swamp my Ni perception. I seem to have better control on this as I get older, but I still respond this way if someone is prickly with me or if I think I may have offended someone
. I do chameleon as well - take on the character of the group I'm with. It's odd being with a group of dominant sensors who have no conception of intuition whatsoever and just project their world view onto me - I can only keep pace with them in small doses.
I think I've covered some of this already
I think I have definitely changed how I handle things over the years and strangely I think the final insight is quite unexpected. I can see now that I have always used Ni and Fe throughout my life but they have been underground for a lot of time. INFJ is a rare type and our natural way of thinking and relating to the world is not appreciated by the commoner types. Our dominant is actually the inferior function to the largest type groupings, while their dominant is our inferior, so no wonder. What has been really great for me is recognising my infj type and giving it competely free reign now I'm retired. Even among infjs there are differences, and one of the things I enjoy, and comes naturally to me, is context shifting - seeing the world from lots of different angles and happily living in all of them as the mood (or forum thread!) takes me. It doesn't bother me in the least that many of them are incompatible with each other - Ni is a perception not a judging function.
Yes - sort of. I can certainly get spaced out if I have to do a lot of Se and I'm no use to anyone for an hour or so at least if that happens. If I'm doing a lot of work needing thinking or Si then I concentrate deeply and get irritated if I'm interrupted. I didn't show this at work because I'm can be an awful people pleaser and hate conflict so I could easily bring my irritation home. There was a lot of multi-tasking needed in the kind of jobs I did, and in some of them I was creating a role at the same time as delivering it - it's easy to run on adrenalin in this sort of situation, and it's easy to get a bit addicted to that, which leads to anxiety that you can't switch off easily. The situations that gave me the greatest difficulty were very extraverted demands - having to go "on-stage" - or those that involved conflicts, particularly where it was necessary for me to actually create them.
Yes, but my wife is probably intj so we both like a quite life and we get lots of nice introvert withdrawal! Of course when our children were young that was a different story, but we are of a generation where you could do OK with just one salary coming in and she stayed home until they were older. My wife has a chronic and serious anxiety disorder that has coloured our lives strongly - it's an awful condition. I'd say that our greatest challenges were at home rather than at my work. When she was going through bad patches it was the company and support I got from my colleagues that kept me going.
I think Ni is at the heart of mathematical creativity. A great mathematic theory is as beautiful on its own ground as any work of art and the insight that went into conceiving of it is probaly closely related to how a great piece of music is created - the people who do the big ticket creating are a rare breed though. Mostly what you see as a common or garden mathematician is the equivalent of a musical score and training in how to read and play it, which starts with Se, Si and Ti. Ni looks on and if you are lucky you get insight into what lies behind the exposition. If that doesn't happen, you are stuck with a partial understanding at best using Ti only. This is why some people seem to be naturally gifted at maths and find it easy while others struggle to make any sense at all beyond straightforward arithmetic. I think the most gifted mathematicians are using virtuoso Ni/Ti in a tight embrace, and expressing their ideas using Te - with a few of the more poetical ones using Fe too.
I think it's Ni/Fe that kicked the interest off. It started a few years back when a cousin asked me about one of my grandfathers (her great grandfather). I found the story I'd been told was not quite right, so I got curious, went exploring and got hooked. There are a lot of drivers - I think I respond most enthusiatically to something like this when it appeals to me in several dimensions and at several levels all at once. So to start off with there was just plain glorious nosiness about long departed family and their scandals who I knew as a child ! It turns out one of my great grandfathers was a drunk who took his family to America - his wife came back home 4 years later, pregnant and with their 4 children, leaving him behind. She must have had an awful time of it. He turned up on her doorstep in the UK 20 years later, still drunk, and my grandfather and his brother kept him drunk, took him to Liverpool and shoved him on a boat back to the USA. Turns out this story is more or less true and I found the ship manifests that show him coming to the UK, and going back home shortly after! How could anyone resist digging deeper after that - I've got back to early 1600s on my mother's side. There's a steep and rewarding learning curve to get to grips with the computer databases like Ancestry, and the PC package I use to hold my family tree, lots of old cracked and faded family photos I've scanned and restored and made into a photo book. There's a lot of grunt work simply capturing information and systematically organising it into my database. There's a lot of detective work when you go looking for something elusive and the eureka when you find out something totally unexpected. Ne gets used quite a lot to find ingenious ways around brick wall obstacles in tracing ancestor lines, Ni and Ti hold the big picture keep the whole lot from collapsing into a chaos of unstructured data.
Oh I over-complicate everything I touch. It comes from Ni - I have this very clear Ni perception of something that I can apprehend in an instant, but to turn it ito words ... I go on and on and on. And I'm a perfectionist and rework things over and over. As I get older I'm becoming less tolerant of this need to express my Ni verbally - it's mostly not verbal. One of the great things about the forum is that there are plenty of people who know what I mean without having to go through a lot of explanation. I'll have to work a bit at this though.
I don't actually like giving Se much conscious space, I find it very tiring. I'm usually living in my head and I trust my unconscious to handle the Se for me a lot of the time. It works out reasonably well as long as I'm on familiar territory - I've got to watch out when I'm not because I become accident prone and things keep developing evil personalities and attacking me. My favourite moments though are if I get to blend Ni and Se together - that fills the world with magic for me, as though it's all lit up with a mystical light. One of my hobbies is photography and the few seconds when I'm framing a picture is another magical belnd of Ni and Se - Se grabs what's out there and Ni gives me the best composition pretty effortlessly. Oh there's a high failure rate of course, but that's how it is when you get the magic shots.
This for me with a vengeance too. I can get to a point where I don't know what my own feelings are because I'm picking up other people's broadcast feelings and I go into please-you mode. Like for you, it can completely swamp my Ni perception. I seem to have better control on this as I get older, but I still respond this way if someone is prickly with me or if I think I may have offended someone
. I do chameleon as well - take on the character of the group I'm with. It's odd being with a group of dominant sensors who have no conception of intuition whatsoever and just project their world view onto me - I can only keep pace with them in small doses.I think I've covered some of this already
I think I have definitely changed how I handle things over the years and strangely I think the final insight is quite unexpected. I can see now that I have always used Ni and Fe throughout my life but they have been underground for a lot of time. INFJ is a rare type and our natural way of thinking and relating to the world is not appreciated by the commoner types. Our dominant is actually the inferior function to the largest type groupings, while their dominant is our inferior, so no wonder. What has been really great for me is recognising my infj type and giving it competely free reign now I'm retired. Even among infjs there are differences, and one of the things I enjoy, and comes naturally to me, is context shifting - seeing the world from lots of different angles and happily living in all of them as the mood (or forum thread!) takes me. It doesn't bother me in the least that many of them are incompatible with each other - Ni is a perception not a judging function.
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Quite agree, there's no point stuffing our heads with useless info, life is definitely too short for that.
The thing that gets me is that there's not enough time for all interests because you really have to focus on anything that is not trivial. The saying about jacks of all trades has truth to it.
There are so many things that I'm only average at because I don't put in the time, plus an endless amount of stuff I can't even get into because I have no time to do it in any meaningful way. It can be hard to make choices with finite resources.
I consider that a man's brain originally is like a little empty attic, and you have to stock it with such furniture as you choose. A fool takes in all the lumber of every sort that he comes across, so that the knowledge which might be useful to him gets crowded out, or at best is jumbled up with a lot of other things, so that he has a difficulty in laying his hands upon it. Now the skillful workman is very careful indeed as to what he takes into his brain-attic. He will have nothing but the tools which may help him in doing his work, but of these he has a large assortment, and all in the most perfect order. It is a mistake to think that this little room has elastic walls and can distend to any extent. Depend upon it, there comes a time when for any addition of knowledge, you forget something that you knew before. It is of the highest importance, therefore, not to have useless facts elbowing out the useful ones.
And anyway .....
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@sprinkles @John K – This explanation makes so much sense and I agree with it. I have topics of interest and want to learn as much as possible about those, but I'm careful to avoid getting involved with anything that I won't ultimately find valuable.
Years ago I was considering learning a musical instrument and decided not to. Most people I know are musicians, and many complained when I decided against it. I explained that I am already an artist and a writer, and I couldn't spread myself even thinner because there would be no hope of being good at anything. I prefer to leave music to people who are truly talented and driven to be musicians, anyway. I did go back to school to learn coding and took video game design classes, though, because games are a good way to combine storytelling and art. Everything I study has to have a purpose.
Years ago I was considering learning a musical instrument and decided not to. Most people I know are musicians, and many complained when I decided against it. I explained that I am already an artist and a writer, and I couldn't spread myself even thinner because there would be no hope of being good at anything. I prefer to leave music to people who are truly talented and driven to be musicians, anyway. I did go back to school to learn coding and took video game design classes, though, because games are a good way to combine storytelling and art. Everything I study has to have a purpose.
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Hello there. Guess I fit into this discussion group the best, happy to see one started for us more 'mature' guys and dames(film noir lover). I'm 62, wow! how did that happen?! and fancy myself as a bit of a creative sort. As I mentioned in my About section I am a late bloomer into the MBTI personality types, so please excuse my lack of not breaking conversations into Fi, Se(doesn't that sound like it should end in fo fum), as I am not familiar with the different nuisances, yet. As to the subject of learning, at times I can't seem to get enough when I find a subject that I am interested in but wonder now if that comes in the form of being obsessive that I read my type can be, which brought on one of those ah ha moments, which in turn brings on the laughter of release for what seems to be me truly accepting myself for the first time(is it with age comes wisdom, or you just get hit over the head enough times you start to pay attention?). However, I have read some on Astrology typing and what I find interesting is that my Cancer/Leo cusp has a couple of the same characteristics/tendencies as INFJ. My purpose, besides getting to know myself better, is to change/control/steer gently away from the aspects of my behavior I find holding me back from being who I want to be, and how I want to live - ideally this would be between film noir and today's sci fi with my own theme music between Frank Sinatra, Led Zeppelin, on to Metallica, and much more in between. As with all others, I have a past that has and does impact who I am today and I am learning to accept it and let it become a part of who I am for moving forward(I am much more relaxed in spirit and physically by doing so). So. I hope to see y'all around and I am looking forward to many conversations and to learn as I go. And yes, I often do live in my head as the brain and mind needs someplace to put all the imagination that I just can't seem to get the real world to do. HA!
Ahhhh Groot! Now I'm your bud forever!
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Hi @MaryJayne, and welcome to the forum. I'm so happy you joined and hope you'll find some kindred spirits here. You'll grow accustomed to the functions wit ha little research and by listening to some of the posters here who truly focus on type and functions.
- This sounds really fun!
- This sounds really fun!
<3
Thank you for the welcome. And I often wonder, doesn't everybody have their own theme music?Hi @MaryJayne, and welcome to the forum. I'm so happy you joined and hope you'll find some kindred spirits here. You'll grow accustomed to the functions wit ha little research and by listening to some of the posters here who truly focus on type and functions.
- This sounds really fun!
<3
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Guess I should admit to being in this group too
Though I think most people in the forum already know who is young and vice versa.
Still...nice to have a thread to discuss such things that one doesn’t think of when younger.
Thanks for making it @Asa !!
I think we should rename the thread to reflect how incredibly wise we all are.
Though I think most people in the forum already know who is young and vice versa.
Still...nice to have a thread to discuss such things that one doesn’t think of when younger.
Thanks for making it @Asa !!
I think we should rename the thread to reflect how incredibly wise we all are.
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Welcome. We have cookies.
It isn't about disclosing the information, but giving us space to discuss some topics that may be specific to our age group.
LOL! I'm cool with that.
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There is quite a lot of relationship trouble discussed in the forum. Do you find as you get older the nature of this changes? I've become de facto family patriarch because I'm the eldest of my family and so they all expect me to take a lead on any family matters that are a little difficult - intervening in rows, taking the lead with vulnerable family members, arranging funerals and solicitors, that sort of thing. One of the hardest challenges - I've been primary carer for both my wife and my father over the last decade. Mainly as the first in line to take responsibility for sorting things as much as physical support, though some of that too. It's very emotionally draining, and as I'm the backstop, there isn't anyone else if I don't do it. My father developed dementia over the last 6 or 7 years - like a lot of older folk he was fiercely independent, God bless him, and that's what got him to nearly 99 years old. But it was me that had to get his driving license revoked, employ care staff to come to his house every day, sort out his finances, get him into a care home eventually, get him medical care when he wasn't well - all against quite hard resistance from him. I found all this just as difficult (or more so) as any romantic challenge when I was young! We were blessed with a really good care home that gave him as happy a last 3 years of life as anyone could expect and I feel really lucky about that. I have been lucky too that both my wife and my father weren't ever in crisis at the same time or I'd have been stuffed. Does anyone else have to deal with these sorts of problems?
Welcome M
Welcome. . it's wonderful to see more folks my age here. . and I can certainly relate to everything you said. Looking forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas. .
Welcome. . it's wonderful to see more folks my age here. . and I can certainly relate to everything you said. Looking forward to exchanging thoughts and ideas. .
I'm in my mid-40s. More than anything, age has brought a change in perspective, in terms of both myself and others. I used to beat myself up a lot for my faults, but now I try to focus more on what I do well and acknowledge & accept what I don't. This doesn't mean I'm not interested in self-improvement or learning new things (far from it) but I no longer find myself jealous of others because they're good at something and I'm not. People are just different. We all have strengths and weaknesses.
In terms of social interaction, I am probably no more or less "introverted" or socially active than I've ever been. I have always required a lot of time alone, I've always dealt much better with people I already know, and by that same token I've always been dreadfully bashful and quiet around strangers. Age has not changed this one iota that I can tell.
I am certainly a bit less anxious about impending social interaction than I was in my youth, but only because I am now more comfortable with the notion of just listening, observing and not saying much of anything. Again, a change in perspective.
I still struggle with focus. I know a little about an assload of things but I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything. Point being - I'm the guy you want to bring with you on Trivia Night. I'm not the guy to call if your sink is busted or your car won't start or you need help with your taxes. Sometimes I just marvel at others' proficiency from years of focusing on doing one thing exceptionally well.
In terms of social interaction, I am probably no more or less "introverted" or socially active than I've ever been. I have always required a lot of time alone, I've always dealt much better with people I already know, and by that same token I've always been dreadfully bashful and quiet around strangers. Age has not changed this one iota that I can tell.
I am certainly a bit less anxious about impending social interaction than I was in my youth, but only because I am now more comfortable with the notion of just listening, observing and not saying much of anything. Again, a change in perspective.
I still struggle with focus. I know a little about an assload of things but I wouldn't call myself an expert in anything. Point being - I'm the guy you want to bring with you on Trivia Night. I'm not the guy to call if your sink is busted or your car won't start or you need help with your taxes. Sometimes I just marvel at others' proficiency from years of focusing on doing one thing exceptionally well.
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Romantic relationship trouble:
Yes, there is and yes I do. I've been in a committed relationship for 27 years, and the mess of dating is far behind me. Long-term relationships have their own discussion points. Heartbreak is a universal topic, though, so it is easy for those who do not know each other well to bond over.
It is difficult to find people who relate to different kinds of troubles such as elder care, life stages, career, and reaching personal goals and fulfilling dreams, and other assorted 'lying awake at night' concepts.
Being the Patriarch/ Matriarch:
No. That is my father, and my brother is his apprentice.
My first cousins are almost my father's age, and I am the youngest of my generation. I've always been treated like the baby. I will be 80, and they will treat me like the baby. My family is strict about the hierarchy.
Caring for family:
My SO's parents have been our focus for over a year now. My FIL had a stroke, and my MIL has Alzheimer's. It has been difficult for my SO and his sister. This isn't the same as caring for a spouse at all, but I am familiar with caring for parents.
My father is well. My mother died after a long illness when I was in my early 20s.
My father seems to be preparing me for the worst in small ways. There was a time when I would have fallen to pieces if something happened to him, and I'm slowly getting used to him not being as present in my life. Sometimes, this behavior makes me think he's hiding a horrible illness from me. (As far as I know, he is not, but as the "baby" of the family, he would never tell me.) This must be a difficult task for him.
Caring for family and dealing with the death of a parent are much more stressful and difficult topics than most 'romantic challenges'. This is not to say that love is not a serious and (sometimes) painful, topic, but not every broken romance is worth the kind of attention it receives.
Caring for your wife is a unique challenge, and when you mention it, my perception is that you must feel peerless with this struggle. <3
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So, what you're saying is, you're an expert at trivia?
I want to be an expert at doing what I do so, soooooo badly. I'm crippled by this. INFJ perfectionist overload. It isn't good. If I weren't so preoccupied by this desire I'd probably be an expert at what I do! Hahaha.
Agree. It is refreshing to be at an age where I fully recognize and celebrate this.
I am curious about your INTP perspective.
It is interesting (and cool) that your social habits haven't changed either way. You sounds much more comfortable in your own skin, though.
Not yet, but it's coming at some point. My parents are both in their 70s, and while their health is relatively good, realistically speaking that could change at any given moment. My grandfather was sick with leukemia for the final 6 years of his life, and required almost constant care (which my mom and grandmother provided). I know that my parents are getting to the point where if something really debilitating happens to one of them, the other will need some measure of help in doing the caretaking. My sister is completely on the outs with my mom (a situation I don't see changing), plus she lives a lot further away from them than I do. So at some point I will likely have to contribute time and energy to the care of one or both of them. I'm certainly not the best equipped to do that, but someone will have to. It doesn't help that both parents, especially my mother, are opposed to even the idea of an assisted living facility.