Self help

[Poetic Justice]

There are several downsides to being an INFJ and what I would like to be discussed on this thread is not just what those downsides are, but how we can overcome these barriers.

I'll start us off

Us INFJ's are both blessed and cursed. And it is the very same things that both bless and curse us. Our intuition lets us see things that others can't, but this seperates us from other types because we can't make others understand how we know these things. yet we know (think?) that we are right. I am often misunderstood by people. People who I like and respect will occasionaly decide without warning that I am dishonest. Or that I don't respect other people. This breaks my heart because I'm always as honest and fair as I can be, even at my own expense. Does this happen to anybody else, and if so does anyone have any thoeries as to why?

 

[54192&#cmy]

I am really beginning to wonder if I have been helpful. I have been the door matt in life for others too. It seems that people don't like to hear advice even if it will help them. I have learned to help those who help me. And screw anyone who does not support me. As an infj I have been way too sensitive to others needs and way too neglicting of my own.
With the right people I can be happy as hell with the wrong people I feel used up. I only hang out with the right ones now and drop the rest..

 

[Satya]

People who I like and respect will occasionaly decide without warning that I am dishonest. Or that I don't respect other people. This breaks my heart because I'm always as honest and fair as I can be, even at my own expense. Does this happen to anybody else, and if so does anyone have any thoeries as to why?

It may be the devil's advocate effect of Fe. Does this sound like you?

Yes, the hardest part for me is accepting that not everyone can see multiple sides to every issue, that they can't feel the value that each side has, that they can't predict the outcome of a particular set of choices based on those differing points of view, and especially that they won't even bother to consider the merit of other points of view. I often find myself playing devil's advocate and arguing views far from my own, simply because I want my like minded friends to appreciate the complexity of the opposing point of view's thoughts and feelings. This often shocks my friends since I can present the argument as if it is my own, and as if it is supported by my own feelings. I've even argued in support of things like genocide, something I gravely detest, simply because I want my friends to comprehend the reasoning and justifications of those who carry it out. However, I think it scares them. It probably leads them to believe that I could rationalize any decision over my own personal values. It undoubtedly makes me look fake and circumstantial. However, it just doesn't seem right casting judgments on others without first considering the thoughts and feelings behind their choices.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Satya, I think that middle quote of yours is right on thee money. I do that all the time. When you said "It probably leads them to believe that I could rationalize any decision over my own personal values." this sounds very likely.

I think I'm going to stop doing that.

It's a shame society forces us to hold so much of ourselves back, when if everybody could see things the way we see them the world would be a much better place. Although I'm sure a world full of INFJ's would come with it's own set of problems.

 

[hoodbran]

There are several downsides to being an INFJ and what I would like to be discussed on this thread

People who I like and respect will occasionaly decide without warning that I am dishonest. Or that I don't respect other people. This breaks my heart ... why?

Only Introverts can 'play' being extroverted, we will show sides or parts of ourselves that we only want people to see, hiding our true self, it can seem to others that we are fake or lying to just get along, this can come from a number of sources like our parents, siblings, teachers, or even TV, we end up growing up being copies of momma's beliefs, daddy's beliefs, society and religions beliefs; all our normal tendencies are lost in all these images of perfection we try to live upto, at an extreme level (those with personality disorder) - this fragmented sense of self is more pronounced, I know, I recovered from BPD.

Extroverts cannot play introversion, in the sense we introverts know it.
An extrovert reading a book is not introversion.

It is a hard task always being in job interview mode; getting approval from others by pretending to be 'one of them' - if you do it too much, other people will see thru the falsehoods and will claim you to be dishonest, the first lie we all believe about ourselves is the lie of our imperfection; the truth is we are all perfect, only perfection exists, else it would not be.

Find a way to let people know of your need to just 'be' and if they can be comfortable with your periods of much needed silence (silent air) then you should be able to break free a little from this problem;-)

Read this: http://www.kitschmag.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=113&Itemid=27


Good Luck!

 

[Poetic Justice]

Hoodbran, although your post is very insightful, I don't think it applies to me. I have never been one for pretending to be anything other than what I am. And I have already solved the introversion problem (see my posts on INFJs and feelings of being alone, different, disconnected or lost) I have found a way of BEING extraverted, not PRETENDING to be extraverted. I can switch between the two whenever I want. However, some people still tend to see me as dishonest.

I think Satya had it right. I now also realise that what I have been doing when presenting opposing points of view, is assuming that people will know which ones are really my point of view. Without the INFJ's famous "mind reading" skill, how could they possibly know? I see clearly now that it was inevitable that anyone who can't tell when I'm doing this would think I'm crazy.

 

[hoodbran]

How can one 'be' extroverted if you were/are introverted without 'pretending'? innate personality functions can't possibly change without some type of psychobabble and many years of it too (btw i've done the psychotherapy course and I'm still intoverted) you are still introverted and studies back me up on this. Emulating extroversion or better still, ambiversion is considered convenience. I said 'pretending' erroneously - but it's in the same context.

I still stand with my original post. I wasn't picking on you or pointing out fatal flaws in a negative ways, the setup each and every person in the western world lives with is this idea of the lie of our imperfection (We're considered imperfect and never will be perfect) however the truth is we are perfect but if like me you watch all the BS on ITV, Sky, Cable or whatever, then you'll be subjected to images of perfection that are only true for those portraying it, for example you see Rogaine ads (mens hair loss) and you see a George Clooney look alike and he says "I tried Rogaine and my hair grew back in 7 days, now I look like this and I have the life I want" - well, that's him and good for him. But the viewer wants to look just like him, someplace deep down inside.

Teachers tell school kids "You come to school to become somebody, the world is divided into winners and losers, you're here to be a winner, do good, get good grades then you can become a doctor, an engineer" - This tells the child they are NOBODY and so introverts and extroverts reject themself, but introverts are liable to suffering more with it.

PS Nobody knows who or what they are, you only know what you believe you are not.

 

[Poetic Justice]

I think there has been a misunderstanding. I wasn't suggesting that you were picking on me. If you go back and read my post again I think you'll actually see that I complimented you on being insightful. Your words may well have been spot on for another person with an identical problem. I was simply saying that it doesn't apply to me.

And in regards to "being" extraverted. Pyschobabbale as you probably understand it does indeed take a riddiculously long time. However Neuro Linguistic Programming does not. You say studies back you up. But I put it to you that you have been reading the wrong studies. NLP is the study of the structure of thought. It models how people generate behaviour so those skill can be passed on. We are all extraverts and introverts. The question is how much of one or the other are you. Your brain already knows how to be extraverted, it just doesn't do it very often. The excersise I describe that lets you be extraverted is the actual subconscious process that the brains of extraverts use. Did you even read it? Like I said I can switch between the two whenever I like. everybody does this. I just have control over it

If I wanted to I could make myself stay in extravert mode for days on end and my brain would eventually realise what I was doing and do it for me. I would become E. I would rather have control over it though because our intuiton is useful and I would like be able to pick and choose my mental states. NLP lets you do this

 

[Poetic Justice]

the setup each and every person in the western world lives with is this idea of the lie of our imperfection (We're considered imperfect and never will be perfect) however the truth is we are perfect but if like me you watch all the BS on ITV, Sky, Cable or whatever, then you'll be subjected to images of perfection that are only true for those portraying it, for example you see Rogaine ads (mens hair loss) and you see a George Clooney look alike and he says "I tried Rogaine and my hair grew back in 7 days, now I look like this and I have the life I want" - well, that's him and good for him. But the viewer wants to look just like him, someplace deep down inside.

I don't see what this has to do with my question but here goes: The world is not a perfect place and there are NO perfect people in it. By definition perfect means there is nothing about it that you could change to make it better. So you think George Bush was a perfect President? We are not imperfect in the way the media and corporations want us to believe we are imperfect. But that does not mean we are perfect.

I get headaches. I would like to not have headaches. With those two sentences I have disproved your entire theory. You say you have tried pyscotherapy. Therefore there must be something about you that you would like to change. You are imperfect by your own standards.

I suspect you mean this from a whole world/evolution point of view. In this context yes the world is perfect for sustaining life. But please see that this is not the only context worth considering. It in fact has no impact on your life, therefore it should not be your primary concern. You can make a better life for yourself and this will not affect evolution in any way. You will never have the perfect life but it is worth striving for. Forget what the adverts tell you you need to be perfect. Make your own rules.

 

[hoodbran]

I'm terribly afraid to say that I just can't offer any explanations at the moment, though I would so very like to, I'll try - I havent done, researched or known of NLP - only in passing comment have I heard of it's acronym, and forgive me if I took out of context your OP - Self help seemed appropriate for me to post...

Actually, I was 'put' into therapy because I was becoming a liability to the safety of me and others due to a personality disorder I grew into, of the borderline type with narcissistic traits so, I do admit to getting on my high horse and thinking I have all of life's answers.

IME I can see how being extroverted for days on end could work for you, afterall, I shift from being passive to rageful at best of times, I love people then hate them wildly but thats due to conditioning, but coming back to introversion seems like a crashing event, is it for you? And, FWIW When I feel rebuked, I get throttled into the mindset of a child so right now I feel dim as a 2watt bulb and can't understand your headache theory - because then, self help in this context is blown out of all proportions, it depends on which "I" is asking the question Izero I1 I2 I3 and Ix?- I cant explain these atm because of the above reason.

Perfection does exist in people dude, Stephen Hawkins is perfect, I am perfect, You are perfect, Murderers are perfect, even Hell is perfect (hell can inspire you) - What people do with knowledge is where imperfection comes in, so therefore Bush was imperfect, but as an experiencer he is perfect. - Knowledge is imperfect, words are imperfect because of context and my train of thoughts are making me dig a hole far deeper than i can rescue myself. Agree to disagree?

 

[slant]

I am really beginning to wonder if I have been helpful. I have been the door matt in life for others too. It seems that people don't like to hear advice even if it will help them. I have learned to help those who help me. And screw anyone who does not support me. As an infj I have been way too sensitive to others needs and way too neglicting of my own.
With the right people I can be happy as hell with the wrong people I feel used up. I only hang out with the right ones now and drop the rest..

I know the current conversation has wandered a little bit and perhaps my addition to the discussion will seem a little irrelevant, but I agree with this post. What I've learned, from my experiences with people is that: People will do what they want to do. And I guess that's been difficult for me because I feel the need to 'save' my friends and family from troubles they are going through. My general rule now is that if a friend asks for an advice I'll give it to them, but I don't go out of my way to tell someone what I think because I know my opinion won't be understood or valued.

"If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

That's how I feel about people. Some are too ignorant to listen to advice, but in many cases it's simply because they've already made up their mind on what to do and they want reassurance. I've never understood that, really. I'm much better at giving advice than telling someone 'everything is going to be alright' or, 'i understand'.

 

[Poetic Justice]

I think we have different definitions of the word "perfect". Perfect to me means that there is nothing you could change to make it better. My headache comment was meant to show that there is something about me that I could change for the better. This means that by my standards I am not perfect. There is obviously lots of other things I would change but I felt I only needed to state one.

Perfection is a subjective thing. It can exist in certain contexts, but there is always lots of different contexts so I think as a whole it cannot exist. Lets take Stephen Hawkins: His disability gives him the time he needs to work on his theories in his head. Maybe this makes him a perfect physicist. Lets say it does. In this context he is perfect. Do you think there is anything about Stephen Hawkins that he would like to change? Of course there is. So he is not perfect in every context.

If this doesn't clear things up I think we should agree to disagree, like you said. I would still like to hear you definition of perfect though. When you feel ready.

Please don't feel as though you cannot post in this thread anymore. I have actually quite enjoyed our exchange.
Lets kiss and make up :mlove:

 

[Poetic Justice]

Sorry Slant, your post isn't irrelevent in the slightest. I tried several different responses to your post but came to realise: Whats the point. You clearly understand this subject. INFJ's eventually learn that other people don't put any faith in our intuition because of the reasons you stated. At 15 years old I think it is amazing that you have already come to understand that

 

[slant]

Sorry Slant, your post isn't irrelevant in the slightest. I tried several different responses to your post but came to realize: Whats the point. You clearly understand this subject. INFJ's eventually learn that other people don't put any faith in our intuition because of the reasons you stated. At 15 years old I think it is amazing that you have already come to understand that

Also, I came up with some additional thoughts on advice. When I say that I 'give people my advice when they ask for it' I don't really mean that. I find that more and more I will just bait my friends into answering their own questions. Someone will come to me with a problem similar to this:

"Ruby, what do I do? I'm in love with this 28 year old guy and I know my mom thinks he's too old for me, what should I do?"
I respond something like
"Well, you're the only one who knows that. I can't make a decision for you. We're all different people. Do you care about your mom's opinion?"

"Yes, I do, but I think she's wrong."

"I don't think it's a good idea for you to be dating someone who's over ten years older than you. But, that's probably how your mom feels too. Sometimes people aren't going to agree with your decisions and you just have to act on them. I think you're wrong, but do what you feel you need to do."

"Thanks Ruby! You really helped. I think I'm going to go get married now."

>.< You just got to let your friends learn their own lessons, I guess.

 

[Shai Gar]

Your friend gunna get raped.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Ignore Shai.

Although, I do believe there is an issue with a teenager dating a much older person. At 28 you are ready to settle down, so should be looking for someone to settle down with. An 18 year old hasn't had enough life experience to to consider settling down yet. In my opinion anyway. Surely the 28 year old understands this. So what is he hoping to get out of the relationship? Sex, thats what. I think your freind will almost certainly get hurt if she goes ahead with this.

 

[slant]

Ignore Shai.

Although, I do believe there is an issue with a teenager dating a much older person. At 28 you are ready to settle down, so should be looking for someone to settle down with. An 18 year old hasn't had enough life experience to to consider settling down yet. In my opinion anyway. Surely the 28 year old understands this. So what is he hoping to get out of the relationship? Sex, thats what. I think your freind will almost certainly get hurt if she goes ahead with this.

My friend is the most moronic person on the face of the planet. She was raped by her father in her youth and by what I can tell because of this she craves attention from men to make up for her abusive relationship with her father; which, I've told her and she agrees is true but she will NOT go to counseling. I find teenagers have a problem going to get help for some reason beyond me- I've been to counseling before and the person I saw told me I was at the maturity of a 20 year old and she didn't see any reason for me to be coming if I didn't have anything to discuss. [ I was there because my parents sent me, though I had psychological trauma from intense bullying I had endured most of my life from other children] From what I can gather is that people my age are afraid of telling an adult how they feel because 'adults just don't get them' or 'adults just judge'....But isn't their wisdom helpful? It is to me. I don't know what to tell my friend, though, I've given up hope on helping her and have left it up to her family to deal with her issues.

 

[Poetic Justice]

Adults don't trust childrens opinions and children don't trust adults opinions. This is unfortunate but true.

 

[Shai Gar]

mid years like me don't trust any of them, and are more than willing to let them find folly if they don't take advice

 

[slant]

Adults don't trust childrens opinions and children don't trust adults opinions. This is unfortunate but true.

So true, so true. I've come to realize that my thoughts will not even be considered by the majority of the world until I'm at least 25. Ten more years to go...:ballchain: