Scottish Independence

[muir]

In 1707 the aristocracy voted for the parliament of Scotland to be merged with the parliament of England and for a union between the two countries to be created which formed 'Great Britain'.....this lead to scotland's national bard Robert Burns to decry the act calling those involved a 'parcel of rogues' who had sold out their county, 'bought and sold for english gold' after centuries of martial struggle by the scots to maintain their independence

Before this the King of Scotland had become the king of England in 1603 uniting the crowns

Since this union Scotland saw changes to its land laws which saw the destruction of the gaelic way of life and a cultural genocide of the gaelic culture. It saw tens of thousands of highlanders driven from their lands to the cities or to colonies in the British empire. The displaced and now landless and unemployed scots were often recruited into the British army and used as cannon fodder around the world from Afghanistan to the Americas and beyond, bleeding generations of scottish men dry

This was followed by the industrial revolution which saw many people turned into cogs in a corporate machine which in turn lead to the mechanised destruction of the first world war in which the scots suffered disproportionate loss of life compared to other parts of Britain.

After that catastrophe another world war 20 years later saw another generation of scots decimated and damaged.

With every war the bankers grew richer and more influential and the people suffered

As well as constant war the union brought a series of economic crises which today are euphemistically called the 'business cycle' but which are really banker orchestrated crises where the bankers make credit plentiful and then restrict the money supply so that they can repossess homes and grab businesses for pennies on the pound

The bankers have also gained hold of the oil industry as they control not only the 4 biggest banks but also the 4 biggest oil companies. This is why war is constantly waged against any countries that have their own supply of oil because the bankers want to instal corrupt puppet governments and grab their oil

Scotland however has large reserves of oil but the proceeds of this have been taken by the corporate powers down in London where the protected banking enclave known as 'the square mile' or 'the city of london' is.

Just over the north sea the Norwegians who had similar oil reserves have grown hugely wealthy with a soveriegn oil fund of £200 billion pounds and a high standard of living whilst the scots have had to watch their roads turn into potholed single lane jokes (poor infrastructure) and poverty grow in their cities with all the associated social problems that come with it such as crime and drug dependancy

Meanwhile the scots soldiers are still used to fight the bankers dirty and illegal wars abroad.

However the Scots have in recent years grown wise to the good cop / bad cop routine carried out by the labour and tory political parties who are two sides of the same 'business party' (and never follow through on any of their political promises. The liberal democracts can now be included in that equation) and have voted into power a nationalist party called the SNP (scottish nationalist party) who have called for a referendum on independance

Before the SNP came into power the corporate media propaganda machine went into action saying that the SNP would not be able to run the country but now years later the SNP have proven themselves competant and support for a YES vote amongst the public for the upcoming referendum (being held in september of this year 2014) is growing: http://rt.com/news/scotland-independence-poll-labour-956/

The corporate media portray scotland as beggars coming to westminster cap in hand for hand outs whilst at the same time the union has sucked the wealth and man power out of scotland; the blatant falsehood of this portrayal can be seen by how hard the corporate powers are working to keep the union together. Logically speaking if scotland were such a burden then they would want to let us go...but they aren't because they know we are an asset

An independant scotland would be a truely blessed country. Not only would it have the best wind and wave power in Europe but it also has large oil and gas reserves and ample water that could be sold to its neighbour England.

Combined with a thriving tourism trade and what could become a resurgent fishing insdustry (this was dismantled by the EU in favour of the spanish fishermen who get to fish the north sea) Scotland would be well placed to weather the coming economic upheavals (collapse of the dollar as the worlds reserve currency)

Scotland has one more great advantage in its small population who could share around its abundant energy resources and land. It has ample land to be self sufficent agriculturally and also vitally it can be ENERGY SELF SUFFICENT which means that scotland can avoid getting embroiled in ugly wars abroad

An independent scotland could turn its back on the dirty nuclear energy industry and could throw out the NATO nuclear submarine base on the Clyde river so that no more toxic radiation could be dumped in scottish waters by the ministry of defence; this would undermine NATO's efforts to surround Russia with nuclear weapons and Scotland could reach out to Russia as a potential trading partner instead thereby ending all the cold war nonsense (at least for the scots anyway). This would take scotland off russias list of nuclear targets as it became an ally and the shadow of nuclear destruction would be lifted from scotland for the first time since 1950

Finally scotland could undergo land reform which would give land and houses back to local communities breathing new life into the highlands and islands and the gaelic culture because city workers from the financial industry have been buying up second homes (holiday homes) in wild areas that they rarely use pricing out the locals who have had to move further away. Also city workers see scottish land as an investment much like art or precious metals and buy it up leaving it underutilised

Crofting...an old, sustainable and self sufficient way of life could undergo a resurgence bolstered by new technologies such as renewable energies and the internet

Stupid projects like the high speed railways could be scrapped and the money invested intead into upgrading broadband allowing rapid and efficient internet access to all scots helping their natural entreprenurial and innovative spirit

The scottish army could be brough home from the various theatres of war and could be used for home defence and as extras in films like the irish army and the film industry could be given tax breaks to incentivise their use of scotland for filming. A purpose built studio could be constructed as a further incentive.

The oil revenue could be used to build a renewable energy infrastructure and to upgrade the national grid to enable the transport of energy from the wave and wind hotspots down to the central belt. The public could be given subsidised energy by a nationalised energy company allowing each household more money in their pocket each month to spend into the economy. The north east is already an energy hub due to the oil industry and this could transition into a world leading renewable energy centre

An independent government would be free to implement advantageous financial regulations to assist small to medium sized businesses, innovation and invention

The scottish education once famed around the world which created the inventors of the telephone, the TV, the steam engine, the pneumatic tyre, tar macadam roads and a host of other inventions would be able to be reformed away from the regressive engineered ignorance of the westminster system to boost literacy and numeracy and to make scottish children amongst the brightest in the world to compete in the global market

Some people don't like or are unsure about the SNP government but once independance is achieved there will be elections to choose from the new parties that would spring up. The strong egalitarian streak that has always run through scottish culture would ensure that the interests of the people were put first ahead of the interests of the corporations/bankers

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to not only decentralise power closer to the scottish (and english, welsh and n.irish) people by breaking up the power centre in westminster but also to improve the quality of life for millions and to end the 300 year war and debt cycle of the union

It's a hugely exciting time and all this could be achieved without the firing of a single shot if enough people believe in themselves and each other

SNP white paper on scottish independence:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/293639/0090721.pdf

 

[Kgal]

...

The scottish education once famed around the world which created the inventors of the telephone, the TV, the steam engine, the pneumatic tyre, tar macadam roads and a host of other inventions would be able to be reformed away from the regressive engineered ignorance of the westminster system to boost literacy and numeracy and to make scottish children amongst the brightest in the world to compete in the global market....

This is a once in a lifetime opportunity to not only decentralise power closer to the scottish (and english, welsh and n.irish) people by breaking up the power centre in westminster but also to imporve the quality of life for millions and to end the 300 year war and debt cycle of the union

It's a hugely exciting time and all this could be achieved without the firing of a single shot if enough people believe in themselves and each other

SNP white paper on scottish independence:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/Doc/293639/0090721.pdf

This is sooooo exciting to read!!!! I did not know Scotland was on the verge of reclaiming their Sovereignty. I will send Love and Light energy to the shining hearts there! Thank you for sharing this.

I grew up hearing about the brilliance of the Scotts. I also read about them in many research papers and books.

My grandfather's family was Scottish through and through. My Grandmother's family was Irish through and through. No wonder I'm a rebel. Hahahahahahaha.

Here's to the success of the Scottish peoples. May they get a government of the people and by the people and for the people - not some corporation or crown. Woot! The world is changing muir.....right before our eyes(again)! Isn't it astonishing!

Power to the People of Scotland!

 

[Stu]

INDEPENDENCE FOR MUCKLE FLUGGA!

I say, lets vote Muckle Flugga to be ejected into deep space!

 

[muir]

It is an amazing time...things are moving fast

This is not just an opportunity for the scottish people because if they break off from westminster and the quality of life drastically improves north of the border (as it would) then the people south of the border would begin to question their own system and government

They would ask why their water is flouridated whilst the scots water isn't. They would ask why scottish university education is free but theirs isn't (and that's how things are now before independence!).

They would want the quality of life of the scots and this would lead to a process of self reflection and an identity crisis in england that would lead to political and economic upheval and probably the expulsion of the bankers and the return of the money supply to the treasury and out of the hands of the bankers

The english would demand greater democratic say and they could then begin dismantling the corporatocracy and the old regressive order of the bankers, royals, aristocracy and black nobility and begin building a more inclusive and fairer society

The independent scots would i'm sure be very happy to trade and assist in such a transformation south of the border because a stable and healthy england would be a better neighbour than a dying one; also without anyone controlling them the scots would have no resentment towards their southern neighbours. Relations could flourish as both countries looked eye to eye as equals

 

[muir]

View attachment 20481I say, lets vote Muckle Flugga to be ejected into deep space!

Well you'd have to drill through some hard rock and probably some of the oldest rock in the world (see for example the lewisian gneiss) to accomplish such a feat

If you like you're far flung places though check out st kilda off scotland:

Or skellig michael off ireland:

 

[Stu]

I believe the white pope and the black pope are conspiring to resurrect roman Catholicism in Scotland. I had a dream that it was the roman church that has been behind the nationalist movement in Scotland since the 17oo's

 

[Stu]

Do Protestants have reason to fear Catholicism's resurgence?

Updated on the 15 January
2008
20:41

Published 15/01/2008 20:19+







Creating a Scottish Church: Catholicism, Gender and Ethnicity in Nineteenth-Century Scotland

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Book:Creating a Scottish Church: Catholicism, Gender and Ethnicity in Nineteenth-Century Scotland
S. Karly Kehoe
Manchester, Manchester University Press, 2010, ISBN: 9780719080784; 206pp.; Price: £60.00



Reviewer:Dr Alana Harris
Lincoln College, University of Oxford



Citationr Alana Harris, review of Creating a Scottish Church: Catholicism, Gender and Ethnicity in Nineteenth-Century Scotland, (review no. 1080)
URL: http://www.history.ac.uk/reviews/review/1080
Date accessed: 22 April, 2014

Midst the foe, and the stranger she seeks not renown
She courts not their smiles, and she heeds not their frowns
Could she only impart unto childhood and youth
The science of God, of religion, and truth... (p. 110)
​

Written in 1854 by Bishop Alexander Smith as a tribute to Veronica Cordier, the co-foundress of the Franciscan Sisters in Glasgow, this poem, which Karly Kehoe unearthed within the religious community’s archives, in many ways encapsulates the broader themes which she explores in her fascinating survey of Catholicism in 19th-century Scotland. Her important and innovative study charts new territory through examining the intersections of gender, ethnicity (Irish, English and European) and an adaptive religiosity against the backdrop of rapid urbanization, contested nationalism and the slow development of social welfare services. This ambitious agenda is supported by a rich, diverse and little-utilized source base, encompassing private collections, the archives of various religious orders and the centralised Scottish Catholic Archives. The result is a wide-ranging and synoptic survey of important aspects of the resurgence of Catholicism in Scotland and the transformation of ‘a broken and underground church on the periphery of Scottish society ... (to) an empowered and mobilised force on the nation’s religious and political landscape’ (p. 175). Kehoe’s revisionist critique seeks to incorporate Catholicism as a multi-faceted institution into a 19th-century national, Presbyterian narrative whilst at the same time to acknowledge the ways in which it complicated an uncritically projected, homogeneous British Protestant identity. This review will examine this broader and important argumentative strategy through the divergent frameworks employed by the author: gender, ethnicity and Ultramontane Catholicism.
I
The central part played by women in the transformation of religious cultures in the 19th century has emerged as a concerted area of study in the last decade, led by the pioneering work of Lesley Orr (1), Callum Brown (2), Susan Mumm (3) and most recently by Sue Morgan and Jacqueline de Vries.(4) Kehoe’s study builds on this research base, asserting that the ‘role played by women ... across the denominational spectrum’ (p. 67) converged around shared ideals of femininity and morality and ‘the belief that the reform of society would ultimately be accomplished through the pious influence of women’ (p. 69). Her study develops this agenda further by exploring the agency of women, from both working class and middle class backgrounds, who pursued their own constructions of these feminine ideals outside the conventional sites for their articulation, namely marriage and motherhood. At its heart, it is a study of a number of energetic women of religious conviction who embraced a life of celibacy and service in several newly-founded religious foundations in Scotland, mostly emanating from French congregations, but attracting impressive numbers of local postulants. Religious life for these women represented an alternative strategy for carving out an identity and for undertaking meaningful work, and Kehoe effectively demonstrates that in Catholic circles it was these women religious who were chiefly engaged in the increasingly necessary social welfare work targeted at women and girls. Her inquiry seeks to illuminate the lives of these little-studied philanthropic ‘foot soldiers’ and to illustrate the ways in which they were ‘pivotal and cooperative protagonists in a changing church’ (p. 70).
Kehoe’s groundbreaking portrait of Scottish women religious – the institutions they established, the professional skills they offered and the religious authority they possessed – lies at the heart of her study of a changing Catholic church and the emergence of a unified Catholic culture (p. 74). Through an exacting excavation of the archives, she recounts the little-known history of the foundation and recruitment of women religious in Glasgow and Edinburgh, contextualized against the explosion of contemplative and active orders throughout Europe, but most especially in France, where approximately 200,000 women joined over 400 religious orders between 1800 and 1880.(5) Chapter three offers a pioneering comparative juxtaposition of the predominantly upper-class and highly influential Ursulines of Jesus (founded in Edinburgh and attracting the daughters of the Scottish and English elite) and the Franciscan Sisters of the Immaculate Conception in Glasgow and their burgeoning community in the 1850s, which attracted both Irish and Scottish entrants. Finally, the study of the operation of the Irish-founded Sisters of Mercy in both Glasgow and Edinburgh, hampered slightly by limited archival access, offers an opportunity to examine differences in the Catholic religious landscape, inflected through class and ethnicity, in the Eastern and Western districts of the country. These textured case studies of the ‘agency of collective female action’ (p. 74) testify to the concerted activity and resourcefulness of these providers of cradle-to-grave spiritual and material welfare. It also explores their collaborations and conflicts with male clergy who, like Bishop Alexander Smith, sometimes valued their enthusiasm and efforts but in other instances ‘regularly interfered with convent affairs because they were uncomfortable with women who crossed traditional boundaries and “modified” gender limitations to acquire moral authority’ (p. 91). Kehoe’s historical sketches of these religious communities give vivid examples of the personalities and issues that elicited these differences and tensions, but is also to be welcomed for the much needed texture it gives to the context in which these women operated, namely a rapidly expanding and increasingly self-confident Scottish Catholic community characterized by marked (and potentially divisive) heterogeneity.
II
Kehoe provides a long historical trajectory when charting the ethic, class-based and political diversity of Scottish Catholicism in the 19th century. Her opening chapter describes the state of the denomination up to 1834, sketching a fragile faith on the margins of national life, tainted by its association with Jacobite causes and sensitive to a pervasive anti-Catholicism which was as much ‘a consequence of Presbyterianism’s divisions and increasing vulnerability as it was of Scotland’s changing self-image thanks to empire and industrial enterprise’ (p. 28). The relief legislation passed two decades after the English equivalent (1793) was greeted by a Scottish Catholicism that understood and presented itself as indigenous and localised – a world away from the unified, Rome-focused and centralising Catholic culture of the later Victorian period. This introduction lays the groundwork for Kehoe’s discussion in chapter two of the arrival of the Irish en masse after 1800, the reorganization of the church in 1827, and the activities of prominent Scottish middle- and upper-middle class converts who used their religious convictions as an impetus to campaign for social and moral change in ways that mirrored the activities of their liberal, Protestant countrymen. Throughout the chapters that follow on the religious foundations, the development of Catholic education and the evolution of associational and devotional cultures, these cultural and class-based frictions between Irish and Scottish Catholics, between Oxbridge-educated Ultramontane converts and working-class Irish immigrants, some of whom brought Home Rule aspirations to their adopted country, are well illustrated.
Kehoe is particularly effective when describing the ethnic fissures within religious communities and the concerted efforts of the Hierarchy to ensure the ‘Scottish’ character of women religious, given their elevated role in representing and reproducing a Catholic culture. The numbers of Irish-born religious within the established orders were closely monitored, and the Bishops placed a strong premium on Scottish female superiors (p. 93). The internal politics at the Mercy convent and amongst the Franciscan sisters are proffered as telling vignettes in a cultural war to assert Scotch authority, culminating in 1867 when the Archbishop of Westminster, Henry Manning, was sent by Rome to Scotland to investigate and quell the ‘racial antipathy’ and ‘mutual prejudices’ (p. 103) which were seen to threaten church stability. These efforts to dilute the Irishness of the Catholic migrants in Scotland were redoubled in areas of education, given its appreciation as key to the shaping of a national Catholic culture and Kehoe provides an animated description of the ‘determined effort to install recusant or Scottish-born women sympathetic to national traditions to convent leadership positions’ (p. 128). Women religious’ positions as teachers, welfare workers and role models were understood as playing a crucial part in forging a loyal nationalist identity and minimising the influence of Irish Catholicism on Catholicism in Scotland. An important contribution to the historiography is also made through Kehoe’s investigation of the more pronounced anti-Irish sentiments found in the West of Scotland compared with the East, in Glasgow as opposed to Edinburgh. The differing levels of urbanization, industrialization and the marked ethnic differentials attributable to a more populous working-class, migrant community congregated by the Clyde gave these cities different characters. Kehoe’s exploration of the different types of educational offering provided by these teaching sisters illustrates well the marked diversity within the Catholic community and the enlistment of these female religious to shape the ways in which these various enclaves imagined and enacted their relationship to the church and the nation.
III
Alongside her discussion of the role of sisters and nuns in ministering to the ‘stranger’ and socialising the ‘youth’, Kehoe also seeks to map her study of Scottish Catholicism onto a much wider debate about the rise of Ultramontane Catholicism in the 19th century throughout Europe.(6) The author asserts that while not necessarily Ultramontane themselves, it was women religious who pulled Scotland closer to Rome (p. 69) and who served Ultramontanist as well as nationalist ends (p. 129). It is these field workers, she argues, who were the chief promoters of an evolving and distinctively Catholic, unified, Rome-centred and markedly gendered visual and material culture. This is a tantalising argument which Kehoe only briefly explores in her final chapter, and one that could well be extended in other national contexts following on from Carmen Mangion’s timely exploration of similar themes in England and Wales.(7)
While ultimately well conceived, Kehoe’s stated aspirations to challenge notions of a Catholic ‘ghetto’ (p. 149) and to illuminate the ways in which these Catholic associational cultures and forms of ‘civic engagement’ embodied values and aspirations shared with liberal, reforming Scottish Presbyterian society, is not fully realised. The author over-stretches her argument in attempting to link the various sodalities, processions, educational initiatives and reforming societies which evolved in Scotland to hierarchy-led, tailored initiatives to counter Fenianism, women’s quest for the franchise and working-class marginalization. Her argument about the preeminent role played by these sisters in ‘producing good Catholics and to making the Catholic community as a whole respectable, obedient and loyal to church and state’ (p. 179) is surely correct, but a much more detailed, textured study would be required to make good the links she intuits, but does not elucidate, between the education of girls and their future socializing roles as mothers, or the work of religious orders towards the dilution of radicalism in working-class communities. This is an area which would benefit from much more sustained research, extending in fact beyond the influence of women religious alone, but Kehoe is to be congratulated for laying some of the essential foundations for this further exploration, in addition to the relationship between Scottish nationalism and convert Catholicism, which she also identifies as warranting more focused attention (p. 53).
Considered in its entirety, Karly Kehoe’s erudite and engaging study of the essential role of women religious in shaping the religious cultures of 19th–century Catholicism makes good its aspiration to illuminate the complexity of Catholic identity in Scotland and to explore the ways in which a resilient migrant ethnic identity was ‘grafted to a broader Scottish identity’ (p. 175). More than a century later when contemporary Scotland, as elsewhere in the United Kingdom, continues to plays host to ‘A8’ accession migrants (many of whom are Catholic) as well as a growing and ethnically-diverse Islamic community, this highly readable case study of 19th-century intersections between gender, ethnicity and religiosity has considerable contemporary resonance. This commendable inquiry into the ways in which a religious minority retained a sense of its own distinctiveness while seeking to incorporate itself into civic society and the national narrative, charts new territory in the historiography and reminds the reader that debates about migration and its effects on a nation’s religious and political landscape have a longstanding genealogy
Notes

1. L. Orr MacDonald, A Unique and Glorious Mission: Women and Presbyterianism in Scotland, 1830–1930 (Edinburgh, 2000).Back to (1)
2. C. Brown, The Death of Christian Britain. Understanding Secularisation, 1800–2000 (2nd edition, Abingdon, 2009).Back to (2)
3. S. Mumm, Stolen Daughters, Virgin Mothers: Anglican Sisterhoods in Victorian Britain (London, 1999).Back to (3)
4. Women, Gender and Religious Cultures in Britain, 1800–1940, ed. S. Morgan and J. de Vries, (London, 2010).Back to (4)
5. For a broader discussion, see J. A. K. McNamara, Sisters in Arms: Catholic Nuns through Two Millennia (Cambridge, MA, 1996); Susan O’Brien, ‘Religious life for women’, in From Without the Flaminan Gate: 150 Years of Roman Catholicism in England and Wales, 1850-2000, ed. V. A. McClelland and M. Hodgetts (London, 1999), pp. 108–41; and F. J. O’Hagan, The Contribution of Religious Orders to Education in Glasgow during the Period 1847–1918 (Lewiston, NY, 2006).Back to (5)
6. For background, see A. R. Vidler, The Church in an Age of Revolution: 1789 to the Present Day (Harmondsworth, 1961); Catholicism in Britain and France since 1789, ed. F. Tallett and N. Atkin (London, 1991) and in an English context, J. F. Supple,‘Ultramontanism in Yorkshire, 1850–1900’ in Religion in Victorian Britain: Volume IV, Interpretations, ed. G. Parsons (Manchester, 1992), pp. 135–49 and Mary Heimann, Catholic Devotions in Victorian England (Oxford, 1995).Back to (6)
7. Carmen Mangion, Contested Identities: Catholic Women Religious in Nineteenth-Century England and Wales (Manchester, 2008).Back to (7)

The author is happy to accept this review and does not wish to comment further.




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Troubled by the direction church is taking, some favour a reunion with Rome, as it becomes top religious group in UK, writes JOHN HALDANE.
IN THE past few weeks, co- incident with the reception of Tony Blair into the Catholic Church, there have been media reports that Roman Catholicism is already, or is soon to become, the largest practising religious grouping in the UK, overtaking Anglicanism.
It has also been reported in recent times that, with their own church seeming to go into schism, some leading Anglican bishops have proposed that members of their communion seek readmission into the Church of Rome under the headship of the Pope.
Those raised on the Westminster Confession of Faith will recall its declarations that the Pope is the antichrist predicted and warned against in scripture, and the Roman Catholic mass an idolatry, substituting human ritual for the unique sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Although such language is now generally out of favour in Protestant circles, members of the reformed churches must blanch at the rise of Romanism.
Half a millennium on from the Reformation, there appears the prospect of the restoration of the supremacy of Roman Christianity in these islands and beyond.
How must this look from the London Fleet Street offices of the Protestant Truth Society? Established in 1889 "to take a stance against the growing influence of Romanism in church and nation", the society (whose current secretary, George Rae, is a Scot) continues to describe itself as "in conflict with the teaching of Roman Catholicism, which it refutes".
How difficult, then, for these and other Protestants to contemplate the Romanisation of the Anglican Communion, and the ascent of Rome to Christian leadership in Britain. However, I think I can offer reassurance that at least Anglican-Roman Catholic reunion is not likely to happen any time soon. To understand why, allow me a brief introduction to Christian "ecclesiology": the theory of the Church.
Four centuries after the birth of Christianity out of the womb of Judaism, there came the first Christian split, giving rise to the Assyrian and Oriental Orthodox churches. Six centuries later came the "Great Schism" (formalised in 1054), which divided Christendom between Eastern (Greek) Orthodox Catholicism, and western (Latin) Roman Catholicism. During the next five centuries, some of the eastern group of churches reunited with Rome, and there are currently 21 denominations (the Uniates) that are in full communion with Rome.
The 16th century, however, saw the most serious fracturing of Christianity, with the establishment of the Church of England under Henry VIII, and with the Lutheran and Calvinist reformations in continental Europe then spreading back to Britain.
There have been other splits, mostly within reformed biblical Christianity, as followers divide over interpretations of scripture. But in the past few decades, interesting things have been happening which offer prospects of some reintegration of Christianity.
First, Roman Catholics and Lutherans have achieved remarkable agreement on a couple of the main issues that occasioned the initial Reformation.
The core of these is the doctrine of "justification", which concerns the way in which believing in Jesus Christ is related to one's salvation. Second, Roman Catholics and Orthodox are now in discussion about fundamental theology and about how to address the de-Christianisation of Europe. With 350 million European members between them, the expanding discussions between the Roman Catholic and Russian Orthodox churches is something to be mindful of.
Surely, then, if Rome is closing the gap with Lutheranism and with the Orthodox, Anglican Roman Catholic reunion must be a shoo-in? Not so. Forty years ago, the then archbishop of Canterbury, Michael Ramsey, made a historic visit to the Pope, which began a healing of the wounds of division first opened in 1534.
Two decades later, Archbishop Runcie visited the Vatican and he and John Paul II issued a joint declaration defining the goal of Catholics and Anglicans as being the restoration of "unity and full communion". That was an ambitious aim that would have to vault several hurdles, one being the 1896 papal declaration that the Anglican ministry is "absolutely null and utterly void".
What moved things from there to the optimism of the Runcie/JP II declaration was the work of the Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission (ARCIC), established after the Ramsey visit with the tasks of addressing points of division. Extraordinary progress was made, though at the level of joint recommendations rather than accepted declarations.
By 2006, however, things had changed. Cardinal Kasper of Vienna journeyed to England to tell the bishops of the Church of England that the desired goal of full communion was in peril.
There were three issues: the ordination of women bishops; the blessing of same-sex relationships; and the internal unity of the worldwide Anglican communion. Unsurprisingly, all three are obstacles to Anglican/Orthodox union, but interestingly they are also points of contention for evangelical, biblical Anglicans who are appalled at the direction taken by some British and North American bishops.
Understandably, those party to Anglican/Roman Catholic discussions, particularly on the Anglican side, who see the turmoil in their midst, would now very much like to seek the security of membership of what, in their hearts, many regard as the authentic (western) Catholic Church.
But Rome notes that many who would like union also favour the liberal causes, and draws the obvious conclusion. Thank you for your interest, but we have enough troubles of our own to put right without importing a whole new set.
Although the general media do not have much interest in the detail of religious affairs, there is still a place for religious news. With a report published on the growth of the Catholic Church in Britain through immigration, another in draft on international Anglican-Roman discussions, and prominent figures embroiled in debates about the changing character of Britain's religious identity, the future of Christianity in Britain has been back in the news.
Who knows, however, whether incoming Catholics will remain, or whether, like so many already here, they will lapse from their faith. What you can be sure of, however, is that the Vatican is less inclined to embrace Canterbury than to watch it carefully from a distance – something it shares with the office of the Protestant Truth Society.
&#149 John Haldane is Prof of Philosophy and director of the Centre for Ethics, Philosophy and Public Affairs at the University of St Andrews. He is also a consultor to the Pontifical Council for Culture.

Black Pope Adolfo Nicolas, Superior General of the Society of Jesus Diabolical Plan for a New World Order.​

1. The Superior General of the Jesuits The Black Pope, Adolfo Nicolas and his 6 generals control the “White Pope” Pope Benedict XVI and the Vatican.
2. The Illuminati, Zionists,globalist Elites, Council on Foreign Relations, Bilderberg group, Freemasons, Council of 300 and the evil Council of Trent.
3. The Jesuits control the Knights Templar, Knights of Columbus and the Knights of Malta.
4. The CIA, FBI, NSA, ASIO, MI5, MI6, NCIS, FSB, DGSE, Mossad and every intelligence agency in the world are masonic and controlled by the Jesuits.
5. The Jesuits have infiltrated all governments & Leaders like Obama, Rudd, Blair, Jintao, Sarkozy, Peres are only puppets that carry out Jesuit orders.​

Superiors General are elected by the General Congregation of the Society, summoned upon the resignation, retirement or death of an incumbent. Superiors General are elected for life and almost all have served life terms, the exceptions being Father Pedro Arrupe (resigned for reasons of failing health) and his successor, Father Peter Hans Kolvenbach. Kolvenbach’s resignation was announced in February 2006, which led to the convocation of the 35th General Congregation. That General Congregation elected the current Superior General of the Society, Father Adolfo Nicolás, who succeeded Kolvenbach.
The”NEW WORLD ORDER” is the GLOBAL TOTALITARIANISM dream that a BANKER called Mayer Amschel Rothschild, helped revive in 1760′s to protect his private bank from global government regulation. His grand blue print is best described by his paid social engineer called Dr. Adam [Spartacus] Weishaupt, Professor of Canon Law in the university of Ingolstadt. Weishaupt adopted the term “Illuminati.” This nightmare is still sought after today by their family’s decedents. Below is the ‘outline’ Weishaupt set out for his banker financier master! Carefully notice the similarities between Karl Marx’s 10 Plank’s of his Communist Manifesto and Weishaupt’s outline. Also, please read Communism & The New World Order.​

The blue print for the NWO is:
* Abolition of all ordered governments
* Abolition of private property
* Abolition of inheritance
* Abolition of patriotism
* Abolition of the family
* Abolition of religion
* A global population of 500 million
* Creation of a world government​

Mayer Amschel Rothschild 1828 “Allow me to issue and control the money of a nation, and I care not who writes the laws.” [Even a 4 year old can understand that people with control of money...write the laws!]

“Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.” – Woodrow Wilson​

So who is this subtle, complete organized power that Wilson is talking about? The answer to that my friends is the Jesuits.
Who are the Jesuits you may ask? Arent they just missionaries, priests and general do-gooders who establish schools, universities and pride themselves in being pillars in the community? If so, then why was The Jesuit Order abolished in over 80 countries in 1773? J.E.C. Shepherd states that “Between 1555 and 1931 the Society of Jesus [i.e., the Jesuit Order] was expelled from at least 83 countries, city states and cities, for engaging in political intrigue and subversion plots against the welfare of the State, according to the records of a Jesuit priest of repute [Thomas J. Campbell]. Practically every instance of expulsion was for political intrigue, political infiltration, political subversion, and inciting to political insurrection.” They are overlords of chaos. In a nut shell the Jesuits are Warlords, Assassins, Teachers, Infiltrators, Tyrants. They tried their hand at global domination with the “League of Nations” but it failed, now they are trying again, under a new name…The United Nations, and its about to work!
What people are not understanding is that the Jesuits command the White Pope and the Vatican City, Obama /Bush’s/ Clinton’s / Blair’s / Peres/ Rudd / Jintao / Sarkozy / Medvedev (and frankly every government on earth) including the the evil Council of Trent, CFR, Illuminati, the Zionists, the Bilderberg group, the Freemasons, the Knights of Malta, the Knights of Columbus, the Knights Templar, Council of 300, and every intelligence organization in the world all have ties to the Jesuit Order and more specifically, the Superior General of the Jesuits known as The Black Pope Adolfo Nicolas who as of January the 19th, 2008 succeeded Peter-Hans Kolvenbach as the 30th Superior General of the Jesuit Order.

 

[muir]

I believe the white pope and the black pope are conspiring to resurrect roman Catholicism in Scotland. I had a dream that it was the roman church that has been behind the nationalist movement in Scotland since the 17oo's

Well they're going to struggle as their most senior man in scotland has just been fired from his post for sexual offences and there are various scandals involving catholic schools and so on.....i can't see them gaining traction but yes they have been players in scotland for a long time and yes people will need to be vigilent against their influence

The biggest sporting rivalry in scotland is between catholic and protestant football teams such as rangers v's celtic in the west and hearts v's hibernian FC in the east

It's all manufactured bullshit to keep the people divided

 

[Stu]

It's all manufactured bullshit to keep the people divided

++
kinda like the hallabaloo about the common core

 

[muir]

@Stu the membership of the church in scotland of all denominations is very much greying

Once the older generation die the church is going to lose a lot of relevance in scotland

The international bankers are part of the same network as the vatican (and jesuits) and they operate in the UK largely through the central bank (the bank of england) and the banking district known as 'the city of london' (which is an area within the larger city of london)

If scotland can break free from both the city of london and the bank of england then it has a good chance to break free from the network of: vatican, black nobility, royalty, central bankers and the secret society network that underlies all these groups and binds them together into a cohesive social, political and economic force

If it creates its own currency controlled by its own government then it will be even more free from the influence of the international bankers

 

[muir]

++
kinda like the hallabaloo about the common core

Thats bullshit to keep people dumb....all part of the same manual of control though...just a different page

 

[Deleted member 10171]

Tigh Mor (Trossachs) is breathtakingly beautiful – thought I’d mention that for no other reason than to say your thread made me feel nostalgic
[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] - I haven't had the time to read your past posts so apologies if you're having to repeat yourself. I genuinely want to understand your position - so this is not intended to be a sarcastic question.

You wrote, "If it creates its own currency controlled by its own government then it will be even more free from the influence of the international bankers."

Would it be presumptuous of me to assume that you are not in favour of EU membership if Scotland goes independent? Reasons for and against please?

Also what do you envisage (if any) are the drawbacks of going independent?

 

[muir]

Tigh Mor (Trossachs) is breathtakingly beautiful – thought I’d mention that for no other reason than to say your thread made me feel nostalgic
@muir - I haven't had the time to read your past posts so apologies if you're having to repeat yourself. I genuinely want to understand your position - so this is not intended to be a sarcastic question.

You wrote, "If it creates its own currency controlled by its own government then it will be even more free from the influence of the international bankers."

Would it be presumptuous of me to assume that you are not in favour of EU membership if Scotland goes independent? Reasons for and against please?

Also what do you envisage (if any) are the drawbacks of going independent?

The mainstream (corporate) media is making a lot of noise about scotland keeping the pound or about staying in the EU or NATO or keeping Royal Bank of Scotland etc

Royal Bank of Scotland is insolvent and is based down in the city of london....we should get rid of it...then they'd have to rename themselves 'the royal bank of england' lol

The pound is massivley indebted....everytime a pound is printed it has interest attached owed to the private bankers who create it.....this debt is unpayable....we just as a nation pay the interest on the debt not the debt itself; we should get rid of the pound

NATO is really the military wing of the globalists....its their army which they want to use to beckon in the new world government which is why they use it to menace russia because russia does not want to see a unipolar (power centralised in one place) world develop...it has called for a 'multipolar world'

The EU is a stepping stone on the road to world government. The international bankers are clumping countries together into trading blocks so that in the future when the right crisis occurs they can then merge those clumps together into a one world government which they will control

If British people feel that democratic powers are being taken away from them and being handed to unelected people in brussels now, because power has been centralised away from them, imagine how much worse that would be under a global government...

Imagine if you had an issue you wanted sorted out in your neighbourhood and to do so you had to take that issue to a global government who were dealing with billions of neighbourhoods how much do you think they would care about what you had to say?

These guys are a one rule fits all type of people....they will bend everyone to their will through force if necessary but they are perfectly happy to use covert means as well. They will create a homogeny across the world...guidelines for everything that everyone must conform to: good bye diversity

Norway has not joined the EU and has done very well. Look at all the countries that have joined eg spain, portugal, greece, britain, france etc....how well are they doing right now...they are broke and indebted to the IMF

So yes we need to ditch the pound, ditch RBS, ditch NATO, and ditch the EU....become energy, food and water self sufficent and create our own currency that is created interest free for the good of the scottish people

This will act as a beacon to other countries who will each in turn follow our lead

[video=youtube;d5tT7unboP0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5tT7unboP0[/video]

 

[Deleted member 10171]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] - I agree with your position regarding the EU. I'll definitely watch the clip when I get a bit more time. Trying to wrap up year-end accounts for audit so busy time of the month!

In order for me to engage and assess the info you've presented, I need to understand your connection and the origins of your source. For me the authenticity of the person presenting the info is just as important as the material itself. I don't know you apart from a couple of posts we've exchanged and I also notice you post quite regularly with heaps of info (which I’ve not had the chance to go into any in depth). So I have a few more questions (if it's too personal, feel free to PM).

It's clear that you are really passionate not just about Scottish Independence but about what goes on in our world.

• What were the factors that triggered your interest in this topic? A brief biog would be helpful.
• Please outline where you get your data from?
• Who are the main advocates that promote the views you’ve presented here?
• What personal research of your own have you conducted?

If this is a conversation you've already had with someone else on this forum then instead of having to repeat yourself - just post the thread & I'll go through it (can't give you a timescale as to when I'll get back to you as I'm juggling a number of balls at the mo).

Just so you know the angle I'm coming from....I try to identify how key world events fits in with prophecies from the bible. I like to test and decipher truth from red herrings – it’s an ongoing pursuit.

Matthew 16:1-3 - One day the Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus, demanding that he show them a miraculous sign from heaven to prove his authority. He replied, “You know the saying, ‘Red sky at night means fair weather tomorrow; red sky in the morning means foul weather all day.’ You know how to interpret the weather signs in the sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the signs of the times!

Interesting times ahead - not just for the people of Scotland.

 

[muir]

In solidarity good luck to the cornish people!


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...along-with-scots-welsh-and-irish-9278725.html

[h=1]Cornish to be recognised as a national minority along with Scots, Welsh and Irish[/h]
Raise the flag of St Piran. A millennium after they were subsumed into the English state and 15 years since efforts began to have them formally declared a distinct people, the Cornish are to be recognised as a national minority.

The Government will announce on Thursday that the Cornish are joining the Scots, Welsh and Irish as official members of the UK’s Celtic minorities. The decision is a victory for campaigners who have long insisted that, beyond its image as the motherland of the pasty and clotted cream, Cornwall has a distinct language and culture worthy of formal recognition.
The status of a national minority group, made under a European convention to protect them, means that the Cornish now have the same rights and protections as the more established members of Britain’s Celtic fringe.


The Chief Secretary to the Treasury, Danny Alexander, will make the announcement in Bodmin today. He said: “Cornish people have a proud history and a distinct identity. I am delighted that we have been able to officially recognise this and afford the Cornish people the same status as other minorities in the UK.”
The ruling is the culmination of a long battle to assert a distinct Cornish identity which saw 84,000 people declare themselves “Cornish” in the 2011 Census following a campaign for the designation to be added to the form. A further 41 per cent of pupils in Cornwall’s schools described themselves as Cornish in a 2011 school survey – up from 34 per cent two years earlier.
The Cornish language, which until 2010 was classified as extinct by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organisation, is also enjoying a robust revival, with 557 people claiming the Celtic dialect as their main language. Teaching of Cornish has received government funding Last month, the Liberal Democrat leader, Nick Clegg, pledged a further £120,000 to promote and develop the language with such measures as an internet-based radio station.
The first Cornish language crèche opened in 2010 and dual-language street signs are now common throughout the county. Its three Liberal Democrat MPs swore their oath in Cornish when elected to Parliament in 2010.
Campaigners said they were delighted by the move, which comes after the submission of two formal reports to Westminster seeking minority status and years of lobbying.
Dick Cole, leader of the Cornish nationalist party Mebyon Kernow, which campaigns for a separate national assembly, told The Independent: “We are absolutely elated. The fact that Cornish culture, language and identity is now formally a national minority on a par with the Welsh, Scots and Irish is fantastic. We shall savour the moment.”
The Communities Minister, Stephen Williams, added: “This is a great day for the people of Cornwall.”

 

[muir]

@muir - I agree with your position regarding the EU. I'll definitely watch the clip when I get a bit more time. Trying to wrap up year-end accounts for audit so busy time of the month!

Bummer...yeah i'm doing my tax too...what a drag!

In order for me to engage and assess the info you've presented, I need to understand your connection and the origins of your source. For me the authenticity of the person presenting the info is just as important as the material itself. I don't know you apart from a couple of posts we've exchanged and I also notice you post quite regularly with heaps of info (which I’ve not had the chance to go into any in depth). So I have a few more questions (if it's too personal, feel free to PM).

The clip i posted above is an interview done by an alternative media radio station with ex-TV presenter David Ike who has spent the last 25+ years researching what is going on in the world

He is the author of many books and has started his own media station called 'The Peoples Voice' which is beaming out all sorts of info around the globe 24/7; as befits its title it has been crowd funded by the public so it is a non corporate source of information: http://www.thepeoplesvoice.tv/

David Ike's website is a good source of information that i use a lot to get a perspective that the corproate news will not give you. I also listen to RT to get a perspective from outside of my own country. To keep tabs on the mainstream news I'll read the headlines of the Independent. I also listen to variou other speakers and shows and such like; one commentator who gives consistently good info presented in a very clear way is James Corbett of the Corbett Report and Global Research

It's clear that you are really passionate not just about Scottish Independence but about what goes on in our world.

• What were the factors that triggered your interest in this topic? A brief biog would be helpful.

I have undergone a process of evolving my perceptions which has radically altered how i perceive the world and the events within it. This has been through various experiences and through various people i have been fortunate to meet throughout my life

There have been times where i have felt a pull to look in certain places and have discovered things there; this has happened in a physical sense as well as in an intangible sense; i guess you could say i have been guided by my intuition

I believe that there is a wider process at work on a global scale and that my own journey is happening as part of that wider process

• Please outline where you get your data from?

Countless sources and experiences. Everything

• Who are the main advocates that promote the views you’ve presented here?

For a long time now the public has been sold an idea of a political 'right' and 'left' but i've found out that at the top of each of these they converge and that the same group of people are actually controlling both ends of the mainstream political spectrum

Many people are now waking upto thsi reality and are feeling cheated by the system. So we are now seeing people from both the 'left' and the 'right' protesting against the bankers, the 1%, the government and so on because both sides have been duped

So i might post something from someone who people identify as being on the 'left' eg John Pilger and then i might post something from someone people identify as being on the 'right' eg Max Keiser because i think they both have valid points

I might not always agree with those peoples solutions to problems though. Personally i don't believe in capitalism but i also do not believe in centralised control. So the closest label might be something like libertarian socialist or anarchist communist

These political views inform my decision regarding scottish independence because i see that as a way of decentralising power out of westminster therefore bringing power back down closer to the scottish and english and welsh and N.Irish people

At the momen the power is focussed in London and the suited bankster minions we call 'politicians' down in London don't give a damn about scotland or wales or northern england or N.Ireland...they just focus all the wealth and development in London (the olympics was a form of stealth tax from the rest of the country to develop London's facilities)

• What personal research of your own have you conducted?

You'd have to qualify what you mean by 'research'. If you mean have i gone door to door surveying people then the answer is no. If you mean have i spoken to a lot of people over many years over these issues then the answer would be yes.

If this is a conversation you've already had with someone else on this forum then instead of having to repeat yourself - just post the thread & I'll go through it (can't give you a timescale as to when I'll get back to you as I'm juggling a number of balls at the mo).

Just so you know the angle I'm coming from....I try to identify how key world events fits in with prophecies from the bible. I like to test and decipher truth from red herrings – it’s an ongoing pursuit.

Well an interesting angle to that would be the concept of the armies of gog and magog descending onto jerusalem in an apocalyptic battle. So why would that be interesting?

Well the state of Israel was created by the Rothschild banking dynasty who were heads of the zionist federation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_declaration). the rothschilds have created israel as their personal fiefdom in the middle east to make it easier to control the oil resources of the region (kind of like the crusaders did to keep open trading routes and pilgrammage routes).

The rothschilds are right up at the top of the pyramid of control. They are controlling the banking system, the oil industry, the global weapons, sex and drugs trading, governments, corporations, media and so on. They do this directly themselves and indirectly through agents. For example when the US broke off from the UK the people there were very suspicious of the bankers in London so the Rothschilds moved into US industry and banking through agents like J.P.Morgan who acted as a frontman for the rothschilds. They often use cardboard cut out people to mask their own involvement in events.

So anyway The Bush family are members of the occult skull and bones society of Yale which the CIA recruit heavily from. The nickname in that society of George Bush senior was Magog. He was of course director of the CIA for a while as well as president of the US and he can be seen on youtube calling for a 'new world order'.

The rockefellers who are intermarried with the rothschilds have also called for a new world order and say that the world needs a crisis for this new world order to be created out of. This crisis could be another world war or a massive economic collapse for example (both of which are looming threats at the moment).

So Bush snr's dad was Prescott Bush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prescott_Bush) who was a wallstreet banker involved in funding the Nazis. His father worked for the federal reserve and also for the Rockefellers (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_P._Bush). The nazis of course then helped provide the impetous for the creation of the state of israel through their persecutions of the jews. The first PM of Israel Ben Geurion said that he would willingly sacrifice large numbers of jewish children in order to secure a jewish homeland

Anyway...if you carry on up the Bush family tree you get to another George Bush (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Bush_(biblical_scholar)) who was a biblical scholar and strong advocate for moving the jews to the holy land.

The views of the christian zionists are kind of whacky. What they believe is that it is biblical prophecy that the jews must be sent to the holy land so that an apocalyptic event will happen. They believe some jews will be converted to christianity and some will be destroyed.

I once pointed this out in a discussion here with an Israeli that the christian zionists might seem like their allies but they are actually not. They envisage either the conversion or destruction of the jews! Pretty crazy stuff...but there you are

So...this idea of two armies converging on jerusalem....what do we see there? We see the world polarising again like it did in the cold war with the US, Israel and Europe on one side facing off against Russia, Iran and China on the other side.

The middle east has the oil....and commentators like bzrezinski have said that controlling the region is the key to controlling the wider geo-political game. The US is currently pursuing an aggressive policy of surrounding Iran, Russia and China with military bases and missiles. Some commentators in the US have talked about trying to gain a 'first strike capability' and have even declared that they believe that they can win a nuclear war!

All this stuff in the Ukraine is basically about the US pushing its NATO forces closer to Russias borders in order to surround her with missiles....scary and crazy behaviour. The russians are thinking ''holy crap the guys in washington are actually insane!'' Also they have been trying to create a land war in syria which would have set the whole middle east alight and sucked in the global powers of the US, Russia and China (like countries were pulled into WW1 due to their various alliances)

So we have occultists calling each other names like magog, being linked to nazi funding but also at the same time being linked to the rothschilds who created israel who are almost trying to spark a new world war centred around jerusalem from which they hope to raise a new world government (like they tried with the league of nations after WW1 and the United Nations after WW2) from the ruins like a phoenix from the ashes

If i was an Israeli i would be highly suspicious of all this and would be trying to sue for peace with the palestineans and Iranians because the Israelis are actually just being used as pawns in a large game being played by a bunch of occultists who are neither jewish or christian or muslim

Matthew 16:1-3 - One day the Pharisees and Sadducees came to test Jesus, demanding that he show them a miraculous sign from heaven to prove his authority. He replied, “You know the saying, ‘Red sky at night means fair weather tomorrow; red sky in the morning means foul weather all day.’ You know how to interpret the weather signs in the sky, but you don’t know how to interpret the signs of the times!

Interesting times ahead - not just for the people of Scotland.

Scotland is very important in all this because there are now a number of countries who are financially desperate.....desperate enough to do something drastic like throw out the IMF (stop paying back their loans) and create new interest free currencies controlled by their own governments and not by unelected technocrats (ie minions of the bankers)

These countries going it alone could then trade with other countries who were going it alone but it needs someone to get the ball rolling. Iceland has already taken steps....it has arrested the bankers for example and Hungary has also thrown the rothschild bankers out and Russia has paid off its debts to the central bankers and is now energy self sufficient...so more and more countries are breaking free

If scotland broke free that would be a populace country in the heart of Europe that other countries would look to. If it did well (and it would because it is energy and food self sufficient) then other countries might follow its example. You could see Ireland doing the same (kicking out the IMF and the central bankers and making a new interest free currency), you could see greece, portugal, spain doing it....the french are pissed off with the EU as are the english so you couls see them dropping out

Once these countries broke off from Rothschild control they might begin to rethink their current trading patterns. they might look east instead of west. Instead of US fracked gas they might just buy the nearer and cheaper russian gas. They might start courting chinese and russian tourists and trade and building links in that direction

Also they might increase the boycott on Israeli goods to force Israel to negotiate with the Palestineans which would remove that flash point from the world. if palestine and israel were stable and safe and cooperating then Iran could relax, syria could relax, lebanon could relax etc

So there are all sorts of wide reaching implications that could all spring from scottish independance. This is not just an opportunity to break free from england...if the people push things even further after independance it could be an opportunity to break free from the rothschilds debt based system

 

[Deleted member 10171]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] - Thanks for your response. Year-end accounts all done - hurrah!!

I'm sorry to say our dialogue is going to be a little fragmented as the next few months is going to be pretty hectic for me - so my responses will be intermittent.

I still haven't had a chance to watch the clip you posted (will when I get the time) but I did manage to run a search on David Icke.

To be honest, I'm a little mystified, have huge concerns and reservations about the credibility of Icke and hoping you can clarify some things for me. The article below is from the Daily Mail (not a paper I endorse) but is consistent with material posted elsewhere on the internet and summarises some of Icke's thoughts.

THE WORLD ACCORDING TO DAVID ICKE
• David Icke is the son of God
• The world is run by a race of reptilians called Anunnaki from the Draco constellation
• Most of the world's leaders including the Queen are half reptile
• The moon is a hollow spaceship inhabited by reptiles
• The world should have ended in 1997

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I also watched the 10min Wogan & Icke interview between 1991-2006. I give Icke credit for the way he questions and encourages people to think, his non-conformist and resilient mindset to have come through enormous public ridicule - however there are huge gaps and hurdles that makes it incredibly hard for me to process his material.

• Where does Icke get his information/revelations from?
• What is his main source of authority?
• What happened to him between 1991 (when he made the above claims/statements) and then in 2006 when he re-emerged and seems to have won back the support of the public?
• He appears to have a formidable number of followers who support his agenda - why do you think this is the case?

Apologies for all the questions but in order for to understand, I need to make sense of what you are presenting.

PS Well done to the Cornish people! Personally I prefer jam to clotted cream on my scone and the Cornish pasties never seem to have enough filling for my liking!

 

[muir]

@muir - Thanks for your response. Year-end accounts all done - hurrah!!

Happy days! Nice one!

I'm sorry to say our dialogue is going to be a little fragmented as the next few months is going to be pretty hectic for me - so my responses will be intermittent.

No problem...

I still haven't had a chance to watch the clip you posted (will when I get the time) but I did manage to run a search on David Icke.

To be honest, I'm a little mystified, have huge concerns and reservations about the credibility of Icke and hoping you can clarify some things for me. The article below is from the Daily Mail (not a paper I endorse) but is consistent with material posted elsewhere on the internet and summarises some of Icke's thoughts.

Icke was a TV presenter who went through a shift in consciousness which has blown apart all his previously held perceptions of reality and launched him on a journey of discovery as he seeks to find the answers behind the lies; it's a process that has also happened to me so i can relate to the guy. My process wasn't played out in front of the TV cameras though so i have managed to avoid a nationwide public shaming

However events like that can be the making or breaking of a person and it has made Ike...or rather Ike has made it work through perseverance

Ike's public shaming on the Terry Wogan show must have been incredibly difficult for Ike but at the same time it was liberating because he got up there and said to the world ''i am not afraid to speak out''. Also once you hit rock bottom you can really get some perspective on things you know?

So by putting himself out there he was able to burn away the old and re-invent himself and his life and start off in a totally new direction. Few people do this in life....most just hang on in quiet desperation.

Once you put yourself out there as someone who is willing to speak out about the things the mainstream media won't touch then people who want to say something publically but don't want to ay it themselves will come forward and give you the information...so Ike has ended up at the centre of a web of info with people voluntarily giving him info and their anecdotal stories which will have accelerated his own understanding of whats going on out there

Ike has already walked through the most searing fire of them all, public shame, and has risen stronger than before.....i admire that

What fears can the world hold for such a person?

THE WORLD ACCORDING TO DAVID ICKE
• David Icke is the son of God

No Ike doesn't believe that. he believes that we are all part of a wider infinate consciousness (i guess in that sense we are all the sons and daughters of god)

• The world is run by a race of reptilians called Anunnaki from the Draco constellation

Ike has looked at a lot of symbology from hisotry and reptilian motifs are very common. They also appear in myths and Ike says many people have come to him with stories about reptilians. So what are people talking about?

Science speaks about the parts of the brain for example the older 'reptilian' part of the brain and the newer 'mammalian' part. The reptillain part is very territorial and aggressive and reactive. The mammalian part however is more nurturing, more cooperative, more inclusive

When we think about psychopathic people who lack empathy we often use reptillian language for example we will say ''that guy is a snake in the grass'' or whatever. The wallstreet bad guy Gordon ''Gheko'' was very reptilian in appearance and behaviour. There is even a book about corporate psychopaths called ''snakes in suits''

So in one sense you could interprete what Ike is talking about as allegorical to mean psychopathy and people who are ruled by the reptillian part of the brain. This allegorical interpretation would actually work quite well in undertsanding a lot of what Ike says

However you could take this to an even deeper level and say ''why ARE there all these reptilian motifs?'' Then you could kind of look through a sort of jungian lens at archetypes of the collective unconscious.

In occult circles people talk about other 'dimensions' or 'realms' for example the astral realm where we go when we are sleeping or in altered states of consciousness (eg astral projection)

Many symbols we are all very familiar with for example the cross, the eye and so on are all archetypal and coming from some part of our consciousness that science is not equipped to explore. Just as cosmonauts explore outer space, psychonauts explore inner space and the 'ancient' egyptians were masters of this. They carried out elaborate initiation rituals which involved inducing altered states of consciousness on the initiates through fasting, fear and libations of entheogenic substances for example the blue nile lily

There were also magic mushroom cults and cocaine had been found in egyptian mummies even though cocaine originates from the americas

They were also said to drink the fluid from the pituitary gland of the recently deceased to induce a powerful psychadelic experience. The egyptians were said to study the stars but in altered states of consciousness you can project your consciousness to the stars (eg 'remote viewing' and astral projection)

The egyptians new what many modern scientists do not which is that consciousness is not bound within the confines of your skull...it is....infinate

Within these other non physical realms of consciousness or what carlos casteneda would call ''non consensus reality'' there are certain entities inhabiting those 'spaces' just as you and me are inhabiting this physical dimension.

Different people are able to go to those realms and meet the same entities and this has lead to people naming those entities; each culture has names for the archetypal entities, for example the egyptians had a reptillian crocodile 'god' called Sobek. Other cultures speak of 'little green men' or leprachauns, or pixies, or elves, or fairies, or santa claus, or mescalito, or reptilians and so on

Many people who take DMT have an experience of meeting and communicating with these entitites. Some people describe these entities as taking a reptilian form and for some people drug taking can take on nightmarish proportions ( a 'bad trip')

So psychedlic drugs are a way to tap into a non visible realm. This realm has been guarded closely by the priest class through the ages (the hierophants and magicians) which is why psychadelics are banned today

What the controlling powers that be do not want is for people to develop a relationship with their unconscious mind. So if you read Jungs work he says it is important to do this for our mental health. he describes a tribe of indians living in a remote part of the world who are so in touch with their unconscious minds that it guides them. It speaks to them through dreams, emotions and impressions. It helps them know what to do in their lives and even where to hunt to find food. There are various guidelines that go with this spirit guide though for example it asks a respect for animals and for other people.

This spirit guide is the enemy of any powers that be that want to control people and maintain a societal hierarchy. This is because a person who is guided by their spirit guide is not being guided by the hierarchy; this makes them uncontrollable

The aim therefore of the controllers has been to stamp out shamanism and shamanic cultures and the entheogenic medicine plants (see destruction of the rainforest) around the world to stop people going within to develop their own personal relationship with the ineffable. They have also sought to disrupt and twist the words of spiritual teachers so that people lose the meaning of their words for example Jesus said 'the kingdom of heaven is within' yet the controllers have built a religion where they put themselves and their priests inbetween people and the ineffable. As a result people stop going within and they start listening to priests and worshipping icons and crosses and external things thereby losing their spiritual connection to their spirit guide

This is why they prescribe Serotonin Uptake Inhibitors to people because they block the flow of psychic energy (energy of the psyche) from flowing freely between the conscious and the unconscious mind. What then happens is those energies build like water behind a dam and eventually they burst forward into the physical realm often with disasterous consequences

• Most of the world's leaders including the Queen are half reptile

When you look at all the lies and wars and scandals perpetrated by these people it would seem that they are very much enthral to dark forces within the psyche or without (or both at the same time depending on your perception of the nature of reality)

• The moon is a hollow spaceship inhabited by reptiles

I don't know enough about this particular theory to comment but i do know the moon is very important in occult circles and that it affects the tides of the sea as well as peoples brain activity. This why crazy people are called 'lunatics' (lunar-tics...lunacy...lunar-cy)

• The world should have ended in 1997

I think he was predicting earthquakes and various weather events rather than the end of the world......so has there been any earthquakes and freak weather events (think tsunamis and fukishima etc)

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I also watched the 10min Wogan & Icke interview between 1991-2006. I give Icke credit for the way he questions and encourages people to think, his non-conformist and resilient mindset to have come through enormous public ridicule - however there are huge gaps and hurdles that makes it incredibly hard for me to process his material.

• Where does Icke get his information/revelations from?

he does a huge amount of research. he doesn't just talk about things on the archetypal level (eg 'reptilians') he speaks about very factual stuff that is going on here in this mundane realm (which is just a projection from the inner realms)

For example if you think about a person who is angry....they have all this angry energy inside. They are driving along and because they have all this aggressive angry energy they are driving too fast. A person cuts them off because they didn't realise how fast they are driving and they crash. the angry person imediately blames the other person because in their angry mindset everyone else is at fault so they leap out of their car and they go round and start banging on the other car and shouting and gesticulating. The other driver is alarmed and gets out and then the angry person attacks them. They have a fight witnessed by bystanders and the cops are called. The angry person is then convicted of greivous bodily harm and reckless driving and loses their licence and gets a criminal record which leads to him losing his job; this then causes tensions in his relationship and he loses that too and then his savings run out and he defaults on his mortgage payments and loses his house too.

Suddenly he finds himself with nothing because of one silly driving manouvre. But his outer life and the chaos that has occured there was a mirror of the inner chaos that was going on in his phyche...it manifested itself into the physical world

The man decides to go to abroad and travels to south america where he hears about a plant called ayahuasca. Having nothing to lose he decides to take it. During his trip he is haunted by the things he has done to hurt people, he is made to face upto his behaviour but he also identifies the source of his anger and acknowledges it and forgives himself and others and releases the anger. The next day he is sitting by a river feeling washed out but spiritually cleansed. The anger and recriminatiosn are gone...he feels only calm and a resolution to apologise to those he has hurt and to make amends and to forgive the person who originally hurt him and to let go of that hurt in order to move on.

A woman passing by senses the aura of calm and serenity coming from the man and is drawn to him. She begins speaking to him and the man smiles back warmly and welcomingly. She sits with him and they share the wonder of the scene. That evening they decide to travel together...and so a new chapter begins...

We all go though these turbulent events in our life and they all leave a mark on our psyche. The more turbulence the bigger the mark. Modern psychiatry is not interested in identifying what the mark is and how it is affecting us, it only wants to treat the symptoms of the distress that the mark causes us

These spiritually transformative experiences happen to us all the time; sometimes they are a small thing we reflect on only for a short time and sometimes they are a life changing events.

So where does spiritual growth come from?

• What is his main source of authority?

I think 'authority' is a term for people who see themselves within a hierarchy

• What happened to him between 1991 (when he made the above claims/statements) and then in 2006 when he re-emerged and seems to have won back the support of the public?

Well many of his claims came true!

He started talking to people publically. At first they were just a handful of people or small crowds but in time they grew as more and more people could tune in to what he was saying. Eventually what he was saying was resonating with so many people that he was able to rent out wembley and speak to a packed out arena. He has since started his own media channel and has a global audience

There really is no point forming your opinion of the man from reading the pages of the daily mail. The only way you are going to know if he makes any sense at all is to listen to him for a while. Don't dive in at the deep end though because some of his ideas need some background information

I have been doing my own research in my own haphazard but intuitive way and a lot of what i have learned gels with what Ike is saying.

• He appears to have a formidable number of followers who support his agenda - why do you think this is the case?

Because more and more people are realising that the perceptions they held about history, politics, religion, science and so on were really just illusions pulled over their eyes by the engineers of perception; once you find out you have been lied to you naturally seek answers

Apologies for all the questions but in order for to understand, I need to make sense of what you are presenting.

Questions are good!

I like questioning too!

PS Well done to the Cornish people! Personally I prefer jam to clotted cream on my scone and the Cornish pasties never seem to have enough filling for my liking!

At the risk of sounding greedy i like jam AND cream on my scones! And yes the sign of a good pie or pasty is that it is full of quality filling!

Apparently the cornish pasty was designed that way with the crust around it so that the miners could hold the crust with their hands laden with coal dust and then eat the rest and discard the crust. You'd have to check that though but it sounds plausible

 

[SandMizzle]

I didn't read the comments, i feel ashamed, but I just have to post this here:

"It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!" - Mark Renton (Ewan McGregor), Trainspotting

 

[muir]

I didn't read the comments, i feel ashamed, but I just have to post this here:

"It's SHITE being Scottish! We're the lowest of the low. The scum of the fucking Earth! The most wretched, miserable, servile, pathetic trash that was ever shat into civilization. Some hate the English. I don't. They're just wankers. We, on the other hand, are COLONIZED by wankers. Can't even find a decent culture to be colonized BY. We're ruled by effete assholes. It's a SHITE state of affairs to be in, Tommy, and ALL the fresh air in the world won't make any fucking difference!" - Mark Renton (Ewan McGregor), Trainspotting

I once read a book about India called ''India: A wounded Nation'' which looked at how India was affected by colonisation and on what afffect that has on the psyche of a nations people

I could see clear parallels between Indias experience and the experience of scotland

Independence would give Scotland the opportunity to heal those wounds in her psyche and to rebuild her self esteem

Confidence is growing here in Scotland...you can feel it