Ramblings about race | INFJ Forum

Ramblings about race

Discussion in 'Relationships and Sociology' started by corvidae, May 8, 2009.

Share This Page

Watchers:
This thread is being watched by 3 users.
More threads by corvidae
  1. corvidae

    corvidae ohai internets
    Donor

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2008
    Threads:
    60
    Messages:
    806
    Likes Received:
    54
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INTJ
    Enneagram:
    ?
    A lot of Asians complain about affirmative action, but I think the real victims are poor Whites. Statistics show that affluent blacks get into college with lower SATs than poor Whites. When IQ is taken into account, blacks are actually overrepresented compared to whites in certain professions.

    Still, affirmative action has a legitimate purpose. Diverse backgrounds promote cultural learning. Also, in the case of professional programs in public universities, the state has a legitimate interest in making sure that Black and Hispanic communities have doctors and lawyers.

    People prefer certain athletes. People prefer certain genres of music. Why can we not prefer certain races without being called racist or people taking it personally?

    I remember in CTY (geek camp) our instructor (who happens to be black) talked about the stereotype fallacy: just because most NBA players are black does not mean most blacks are NBA players. But that is dodging the point - I don't think even the most prejudiced people would make that claim.

    Racism may be prejudice, but it would be impossible and impractical to live without prejudice. Take music preferences as an example. There are thousands of new albums I could chose to listen to. The problem is, I don't have an infinite amount of time to judge every album on its own merits. So, more likely than not, I will choose from a genre that I have statistically enjoyed in the past. That doesn't mean I automatically like all industrial music - it's just that I give certain music the benefit of the doubt. That's a form of prejudice that most people would not feel guilty about.

    So why, then, is it wrong to give certain groups of people the benefit of the doubt?

    Another example of something that bothers me: in the US, we presume that random strangers we meet in public speak English (or in some cases, Spanish). Is this not prejudiced against non-English speakers? We're being ethnocentric, but most people do not complain about that.

    One argument for reverse discrimination is that certain groups have historically been persecuted, and that somehow we must "reverse" this prejudice. I don't deny that genocides and racism have occurred, or that they weren't violations of human rights. But if we try to repay every single debt possible, when does it end? If evolutionary anthropology is to be believed, we are all descended from the same woman, 8000 generations ago (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_bottleneck#Humans). And the next time you have an argument with your parents, tell them "I never chose to be born in this family!" See how far that gets you.

    /hopes nobody was offended by this post
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  2. poetrygirl

    poetrygirl Community Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2009
    Threads:
    28
    Messages:
    304
    Likes Received:
    22
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    I completely agree. It should be about Equal treatment not Special treatment. I do however fully support affirmative actions based on financial status (which there is actually more of a educational divide) but not race. In fact I don't think colleges should even be able to see what race you are on your application. You should be judged by your qualifications. Affirmative action had a good purpose at one time when racial minorities were being turned away from education but now we even have a black president. With time the racial divides are blurring on their own; affirmative action only inhibits this and redraws the line.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  3. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
    Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Threads:
    39
    Messages:
    3,448
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Trophy Points:
    892
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    InFj
    I think everything in life should be based on your own merits. Color of skin makes no difference to me. I know plenty of worthless white kids. Life all comes down to you and your attitude about life. People call me a redneck loser in my town but none of them know me they are just making assumptions about my appearance. I have no quarrel with anyone and I hope they don't have a quarrel with me. I am growing tired of anger and hate it just seems to make things worse. And while we hate each other the government is screwing both of us and blaming the other group for it.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  4. poeticinfp

    poeticinfp Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Threads:
    7
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    To the OP: I agree with many of your points. I'm also a black person who is AGAINST affirmative action.

    However, there is one aspect about this race issue you must keep into consideration:

    Would you ever expect a strong ESTJ to fully understand what being an INFJ is like? Similarly, there are certain aspects of the race issue that you cant understand unless you're a black person or other minority...especially in the US. There are certain subtlelties about the racism issue that I could never explain fully to my non-black friends.

    Keep this in mind, and don't try to judge the black people who seem more militant about racism than others. They have their reasons.

    Also where you come from makes a difference. e.g. There are many differences between Caribbean blacks, African-American blacks and black people from Africa. I'm personally a Caribbean black and can sometimes feel like a fish out of water when surrounded by African-American blacks. African-American blacks are more likely to be for affirmative action because of their unique past in America; whereas Caribbean blacks are more likely to talk about merit and pulling yourself up through sweat and hard work because of our experiences which were different.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #4 poeticinfp, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  5. Creon

    Creon Community Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Threads:
    15
    Messages:
    664
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    Lawful Evil
    Yeah, well I don't think I understand exactly what affirmative eaction is, not being an American and all, but...
    That's wrong. It's one thing to be prejudiced about something that has to do with another person's personallity, creativity, capability, ideology etc, that are things that are primarily defined by personal choice and social interaction, and a completely different one to be prejudiced about color or ethnicity. The first is acceptable, the second is racism.


    I think youre saying this in the context of this so called affirmative action, which I think has something to do with helping minorities? So It could be I'm misunderstanding something. Anyway, you're free to like whatever you want, but you are required (or should I say, you should be forced) to treat everybody equally and according to what you believe about their personality and abilities (primarily in legal or business situations), not about their race. Which is generally a good thing, since we can't (or rather, shoudln't) force people to like or dislike anyone.

    Anyway, can somebody explain to me what this affirmative action is?
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #5 Creon, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  6. Julia

    Julia Community Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Threads:
    24
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    88
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infj
    The IQ test by its design and vocabulary favors white culture and language use. It is not an accurate measure for comparison between cultures.

    The privileges that go along with being white in a white dominant society go far beyond these surface indicators. Even poor whites benefit more than they are consciously aware of. I'll be back with more concrete information about this.

    White Privilege Article I didn't get a chance to read the whole thing, but I think it represents the idea.


     
    #6 Julia, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  7. Shai Gar

    Shai Gar Guest

    I've done an official IQ test. There's a heap of questions to do with American politicians from pre-revolution days, and a bunch about american authors I've never heard of.

    It's not white culture, it's white american culture.
     
  8. anica

    anica dark dreamer
    Donor

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2009
    Threads:
    29
    Messages:
    1,674
    Likes Received:
    169
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    infp
    Enneagram:
    4w5
    I found the statement about Poor Whites in the first post interesting. I come from a long lind of poor southern whites and while childhood was difficult, I don't think my background ever hampered my ability to get an education. Of course I tend to score very high on standardized tests, which probably helped. In the case of law school, I actually played the "poor white" card in my essay required for my application. I mentioned that despite the fact there was little emphasis on education in my family--with my grandparents and one parent being illiterate and one brother being a high school dropout--I developed a love of learning that drove me, etc., etc. Now, I'd scored in the 97th percentile on the LSAT, which didn't hurt, but I've always felt that essay was the kicker that got me into law school even though I applied at the last minute.

    I don't think "poor southern white" can be described as an ethnic background, though we make an annual contribution to the Southern Poverty Law Center, so maybe it can, but it's a reach. Certainly we are a group set apart in ways that are difficult to describe. I guess it's more a cultural bias than a racial one and perhaps has no place in this OP. But I have watched my brothers struggle in the same quagmire of poverty that trapped my parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, etc. It's not as if they didn't have the same opportunities I had. They, however, made life decisions based on a cultural mindset that reminds me of that of some of my African-Amiercan friends who also grew up in povery, only there is less a sense of entitlement in my brothers' attitude toward life--and less bitterness. It's more a sense of bewilderment about how they got to where they are in life, a sense that life happens to them rather than a clear vision that their choices have a direct effect on their lives. They also seem less able to see opportunities and to seize them than many middle-class people I know (I married into the middle class in my second marriage and my current partner grew up in a relatively affluent, politically active Jewish family).

    Despite being born into a middle-class family--well, at least on their dad's side--my sons grew up mostly in the poverty created by my disability. I was surprised that neither their father nor their grandparents on that side of the family made much, if any, financial contribution to their upbringing.. Luckily my partner's parents did and also exposed them to middle-class values. Theirs was a different kind of poverty than the one I tried so hard to escape in that they were surrounded by people overcoming all kinds of adversity to make lives for themselves. They saw the consequences of choices and had little respect for people who allowed themselves to be defeated by their disabilities. Nevertheless, neither of my sons chose to go to college (for the younger one it's never been a real possibility because of his particular mental illness and attendant cognitive deficits, but the elder was good at academics and had a college fund set aside for him by my partner's parents. He chose flight school instead and makes a good living but I see him making some of the same culturally-based decisions my brothers have made. And it makes me wonder just how hard it is to break the cycle of poverty.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    shannishannon likes this.
  9. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Threads:
    382
    Messages:
    11,688
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Trophy Points:
    881
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    Okay.

    Get your coffee and your donuts out, because this is going to be a long morning rant.

    When I first read the questions by the OP I had to remind myself to relax. Yes, I am African-American, born and raised in the US, but I also have had a balance of advantages and disadvantages in my life. Affirmative Action, Taz, is one of those items in American culture that can become a very volatile subject in a short period of time depending on who's doing the talking. It's basically the belief that you should hire a certain quota of people to balance your company's diversity profile.

    When discussing Affirmative Action there are a few things to consider.

    1. Are you speaking about a specific racial group, or are you speaking about people as a whole? If you're speaking about a particular racial group then your argument regarding AA is prejudicial and biased.

    2. Are you speaking from personal experiences, or are you speaking from what others have told you about it?

    3. Do you live in the United States?

    4. Do you personally know anyone who has benefited from AA and have you asked them about it?

    5. Do you know your American history from the 1950s through 2007? Have you studied the AA trends in corporations and schools?

    And so on.

    I'm actually a little frustrated because these are topics I run into over, and over, and over again and I always feel as if I need to explain it to people who are coming at it from one biased POV. No offense to the OP, but arguments like this are not ones I like to discuss. There's a question posited, and the question does not sound as if it's open for discussion.

    That being said, I'm not necessarily for or against Affirmative Action. What I AM for is equal treatment for equal situations. The problem is (hello) NO SITUATION IS EQUAL. No two situations are alike. I tell you what. Racism does not magically go away. It takes a conscious effort to change it on both sides - and you can "say" racism doesn't exist, but actions reveal truth. If you think America is not racist, I defy you to start looking back over the past two years or so and investigate some of the things said about our current president. It's there. From people who say they're "not racist": Wow, look...look under that rock. I see it!

    So let's take away that whole notion that racism does not exist in the United States.

    So if racism *does* exist, then you can also assume racism exists in all levels of society and it doesn't discriminate against the intelligent or the ignorant (some of the most intelligent people in America can also be very racist).

    Then if we can assume this^^, then we can also assume that business owners and leaders can be racist, and they might hire people based on who they personally like/don't like. Now, should they have the right to do that? Sure. We all do it. It comes down to bias. But when this is out of control and no one hires you because you happen to believe something they don't or you happen to look a way they don't, then there is a problem because you've personally created an impenetrable ceiling for a large group of people - and you've doomed a certain class of people to a certain economic bracket. At least this is what happened early in our nation's culture, until Affirmative Action took hold.

    Now...do I say we still need it? That's another story. I think if managers and leaders of companies can look past color and select the best people for the job, they should do it. Do I think all managers do this? No, I don't. I don't have that much faith in our managerial system. I also don't see a lot of top CEOs or industry leaders of color, either. AA also can show younger people that yes, you can aspire to X job because others have broken the glass ceiling for you - and the industry might let you achieve your goals.

    I think each situation has to be evaluated carefully. I think if there's an industry that lacks people of color, we should be asking ourselves why. We should also ask that question if there's too MANY of one culture in an industry, because there might be economic disadvantages to that as well.

    So. That's my rant...take it as you will.
     
    #9 arbygil, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
    Creon likes this.
  10. poeticinfp

    poeticinfp Newbie

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Threads:
    7
    Messages:
    37
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    0
    MBTI:
    INFP
    Arbygil, your rant essentially illustrates the point I made in my response above.

    To understand someone's views about racism, you need to be able to really walk inside their shoes. You need to be able to understand the situation from their perspective. The racism issue concerning African-americans is peculiar and it's because of their unique history. It's easy for a white person in the comforts of their suburban home to say something like, "oh those whiny blacks, always waiting for another handout."

    I am black, but I wasn't born in America, so it took me a while to understand why American blacks act the way they do concerning the racism issue.... it's because their history here in America was quite peculiar. In the Caribbean, things are different, not perfect just different.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #10 poeticinfp, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  11. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Threads:
    382
    Messages:
    11,688
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Trophy Points:
    881
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    *Nod.* And I agree, poetic - my uncle is from Ghana and I have a few cyberfriends from the Islands. Caribbean and Island Black folk seem to acclimate to the US culture, but I think it's also because unconscious racism was never a factor in their lives. The freedom is different - and in some cases, the darker Islanders happened to be the majority in the society - which brings another whole aspect to the situation.

    Any minority group in a society can feel an acute, unconscious pressure from the majority that they "aren't good enough/will never be good enough." It's unconscious and hidden but unfortunately it exists in every, "Oh, wow, I didn't know you liked that kind of music." Or, "Oh, wow, you really did well on that test!" Or, "Oh, wow, you like that food?" Or, "Oh wow, you like hockey??"

    The feeling is that the other party doesn't understand that we're all unique. We're not folks to put into a box. Yes, some of us *do* like thrash metal. Some of us *are* good in math. Some of us *like* sushi. Some of us *like* so-called "White man's sports."

    So it's frustrating - always has been frustrating - to get that eyebrow raise or stunned look or weird pause when people's perceptions of me change because their perceptions have been tainted for so long.
     
  12. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
    Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Threads:
    39
    Messages:
    3,448
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Trophy Points:
    892
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    InFj
    After reading everyone's posts It appears to me that people make some kind of assumption that racism only happens to black people or minorities. So what happens if a white man or woman is harassed or killed by another minority? Is that not racism? Or is it justified because fifty years ago some one in my family may have hurt a minority? Or am I guilty of killing Jews because I am white and from a long line of German people? At what point do minorities and whites let them self off the hook? I HAVE NEVER HARMED ANYONE OF ANY COLOR! And yet because of my skin color and appearance I am not safe or welcome to hang out with black people I have known. I have been told that I will be killed if I don't leave. My friend Chris who is black was shocked by his friends attitudes toward me. He was not raised to be racist against white people. When I walked hand in hand with Makeba threw the Mall the Black gentlemen proceeded to call me whitey, cracker, white toast and my fave dead mother fucker walking. When I left her to go to the bathroom they started to ask her why she was with a White man. She told them that I respected her and that they needed to grow up. They still felt the need to threaten me as we walked away. Now if I started the same situation and it was a white girl and a black man it is racist. Racism is continued by the ignorance and fear of others and until we stop the fear and ignorance nothing will change. And even if racism is wiped from the face of the Earth not everyone is going to like you. That is where community comes in it gives you a sense of belonging and a sense of self worth. I am not racist and I am tired of being blamed for being so just because I am white.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
    #12 efromm, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  13. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Threads:
    382
    Messages:
    11,688
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Trophy Points:
    881
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    Efromm, no one is blaming you for being white. And there's not one thing in my post directly reflecting you or singling you out - or anyone. Racism is racism, regardless. The reason why Blacks often decry racism is because it's been overt in our culture for many, many years and the residual effects of it have not been dealt with. I agree, killing is killing and racism is racism. But unless everyone agrees to help everyone else we're going to go back and forth with the blame game.

    God, it frustrates me. Privilege, regardless of where it comes from is annoying and frustrating. Whether or not we say "it's not my fault" but it's the fault of the culture for not responding to it, we all become part of the problem.

    The good news is, if we're all part of the problem we can all be part of the solution.

    Let's get off the fault high horse and start changing things in ourselves.
     
  14. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
    Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Threads:
    39
    Messages:
    3,448
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Trophy Points:
    892
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    InFj
    I was not laying blame or fault I was expressing what has happened to me. I was giving my experience as an example I have many other examples I could give you because I have had many friends of color. It's a human issue and people need to put away their fears and if we just keep perpetuating the very hate we say we don't like things will never change for any of us. In the end it is ignorance of others that started the racism in the first place. Color should not be an issue or a description of another persons heart. Although I won't walk up to anyone I don't know and try to friend them. I have learned from experience that there are some places that I am just not welcome and I accept that. Some things may never change...
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  15. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,616
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000
    I detest the way that some racial/ethinic groups will use/take advantage of any prejudice against them (however little or obscure it may be) and use it as leverage against everyone else.

    I also dislike the way some groups will use historical prejudices to justify their getting special treatment or indeed, acting beligerantly at this time in history.



    ie. I detest people playing the victim in order to manipulate others.


     
    #15 Flavus Aquila, May 8, 2009
    Last edited: May 8, 2009
  16. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Threads:
    382
    Messages:
    11,688
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Trophy Points:
    881
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    This is true - but just because you're excluded doesn't mean you won't be accepted at a future date. It just takes time.

    But prejudice and racism takes all forms and exists in all cultures. I've often read personal accounts of White folks in Japan who felt the sting of racism for the first time, and it was interesting to see how each individual dealt with it. No culture should personally effect another by proclaiming that their culture is better...but unfortunately it happens - and consistently happens. But trying to inflame the problem (not you, speaking in general terms here) by lacking the understanding on both sides or by not taking the time to understand the Other's point of view is cultural genocide. My inbox is filled with fandom arguments from both sides - sides that lack the ability to gauge where the other person is coming from. I try to be even handed. I want to be. But hearing both sides argue about things they know nothing about (or when they speak from their wounds) is a total brain drain.

    When wounded people speak, it exasperates the problem. Heal the wounds (the root). *Then* heal the problem.

    My personal background is mixed. I grew up in an all-white neighborhood of Jewish folk and Catholics. I went to a Jewish preschool and I can recite the Shabbat and Erev Shabbat prayers. I prefer to date White men (even better if they're Irish!). Those are all a part of me. They make me who I am. But it doesn't mean I'm separate from my culture. I AM Black. I can't change that, and I won't. I know my past history and my experiences, and I know what my Mother, Grandmothers, and Great-Grandmothers had to endure to get me where I am. I appreciate their knowledge and their wisdom, but when that knowledge and wisdom disagrees with the old proverb, "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" then I discard the old ways and take up the beneficial ones.

    Each situation is unique, though. We keep looking at a "collective" problem, but we have to understand that we're all unique and each situation needs to be looked at uniquely - whether Affirmative Action or racism or bias, or what have you. We have to be able to say not one way is best all the time. And we have to be willing to stand up when wrong-hearted thinking gets in the way of true progress and unity.
     
  17. arbygil

    arbygil Passing through

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Threads:
    382
    Messages:
    11,688
    Likes Received:
    1,368
    Trophy Points:
    881
    MBTI:
    INFJ
    Enneagram:
    9w1
    When they speak this way, Flavus, they're speaking from wounds. No one should manipulate others, but we've all done it whether we consciously realize it or not. Children do it all the time. So do high school students. So do many different colors, creeds, and races. But instead of accepting this or getting angry at it, why not take the time to understand why this is happening in the first place? It might create a bridge of understanding if you're willing to take the time to see it through. I'm not saying it's an easy road - not at all. But it's a far more fulfilling one.
     
  18. slant

    slant Ruboobie
    On Holiday

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2008
    Threads:
    334
    Messages:
    10,318
    Featured Threads:
    40
    Likes Received:
    16,540
    Trophy Points:
    1,751
    Gender:
    Female
    MBTI:
    ENFP
    Enneagram:
    6-4-9
    I've said this once, and I'll say it again, everyone is a little bit racist. Things run much smoother when people are aware of it, because often times it leads them to correct it; sometimes not. A lot of people in Utah are very racist; there is a large number of Hispanics who live here and I'm constantly hearing talk about those 'spics'.

    In fact, I'd like to point out that in one of the U.S. President's speeches a few weeks or so back, he was speaking about illegal immigrants and specifically mentioned Mexicans. Are all illegal immigrants Mexicans? No.
    So everyone is racist, to an extent. Some may be worse than others. It's keeping it in check that's the challenging part.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
  19. Flavus Aquila

    Flavus Aquila Finding My Place in the Sun
    Banned

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Threads:
    323
    Messages:
    10,047
    Featured Threads:
    49
    Likes Received:
    5,616
    Trophy Points:
    1,102
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Australia
    MBTI:
    INTJ - A
    Enneagram:
    10000

    Point taken - I mean I don't like the way some people are conscious of what they are doing and EXPLOIT it for their own advantage. It happens a lot.
     
  20. efromm

    efromm Hiding In My Shell...
    Donor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Threads:
    39
    Messages:
    3,448
    Featured Threads:
    1
    Likes Received:
    2,200
    Trophy Points:
    892
    Gender:
    Male
    MBTI:
    InFj
    I agree totally with everything you said Arbygil!! I really wish that humanity would make an effort for understanding each other. If I was the President I would be working on healing America and trying to make America the place it was intended to be. I never see our leaders do anything but talk about race issues they don't get involved in the true fixing of anything. And it seems like people keep bringing up old issues that don't need to be rehashed. I have done the same things to myself until I realized that I needed to move on and grow instead of playing the victim.
     
    Stop hovering to collapse... Click to collapse... Hover to expand... Click to expand...
Loading...

Share This Page