Plato's Allegory of the Cave | INFJ Forum

Plato's Allegory of the Cave

Odyne

Odyne

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I enjoy philosophy very much, and I wanted to share one of my favorite notions that I've come across so far. This is Plato's Allegory of the Cave, recounted by Socrates. It's made in animation, it's really simple and interesting. It's only 8 minutes.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2afuTvUzBQ"]YouTube - ‪Plato's Cave (animated version)‬‏[/ame]

Can you relate? Agree? Disagree? Contest?
I'd love to hear general impressions and opinions. :smile:
 
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I'll just say this: you cannot explain the big picture, if you're stuck in the little picture. In order to describe the box, you need to get out of it. Imagine the smartest bacteria living inside your stomach denying the existence of a larger reality outside that stomach. To that bacteria, regardless of how smart it is, will never really understand what is going on outside of its system without actually getting outside of it and seeing it for itself.

We here want to understand the causality of our place in the universe, and how the cosmos came into being, by coming up with many theories and systems of beliefs that make up for our lack of understanding. We don't like uncertainty, so that's why we point fingers and rely on old scriptures to take out that ambiguity that will never be explained to you if you, yourself, don't take the leap into the larger reality, and see it for yourself. Belief doesn't convey knowledge, experience does.

This is what Plato more or less wanted to convey...or so I presume.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strange_loops

Relativity grants perspective, ironically enough, and we are reminded of infinity.
What one knows limits what one can know - positions change, yielding insight.
Questions do not ultimately give answers, they give more questions.
Infinity.


Maybe.
 
I love the Allegory of the Cave. I'm at work so I can't comment too much right now so I'll try to get back later.
 
I have a problem with this sentence towards the end of the video:

It is the task of the enlightened not only to ascend to learning and to see the good, but to be willing to descend again to those prisoners and to share their troubles and their honours whether they are worth having or not ..... and this they must do even with the prospect of death.
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IMO, unless any enlightened being has actually agreed to teach the less enlightened, it shouldn't be compulsory for them to undertake such a task .... especially with the prospect of death.
 
PeaceSeeker said:
I have a problem with this sentence towards the end of the video:



IMO, unless any enlightened being has actually agreed to teach the less enlightened, it shouldn't be compulsory for them to undertake such a task .... especially with the prospect of death.
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Are you really that enlightened if you are not willing, of your own volition, to help the unenlightened?
 
PeaceSeeker said:
I'm willing to help anyone, but not if I'm going to be crucified in the process.
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That is the risk you run with helping anyone. The person you help today could be your murderer tomorrow.
 
Yes, I enjoyed that video very much. Makes a great deal of sense and nicely told.

It is interesting that the prisoner had to almost be forcably shoved out into the light. I find that in many cases there are those who would not be able to trust their guide at all, assuming they had ill intent, and deciding that they knew best how to navigate their new found awareness of the cave...this due to a lack of humility and trust or due to deep fear or unwillingness to go a different route than the other prisoners. Or perhaps that the guide had a funny limp, and that surely they were unable to provide anything of real worth.
 
I also like the allegory of the cave. It's interesting.

I think plato was an intuitive. And he was trying to describe the forest to sensors who only see the trees. I heard a stastic that only 25% of the population are intuitives. Hmm, in that video there were only 4 in the cave I think the guy who left was an intuitive.

Imo, he was trying to describe truth to people who don't really care about thinking stuff like that. Didn't his teacher aka Socrates get put to death because he didn't think like his highers and was raising new ideas about god etc? I guess it's just human nature. Hey, you don't think like me, your challenging my authority, dieeeee. Sad but true.

So basically I view it about people discovering the truth, and one trying to describe another perspective to others that can't see it cause they haven't been there themselves. Or no? Did I get it wrong? I'm always wrong. :(
 
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donkeybals said:
So basically I view it about people discovering the truth, and one trying to describe another perspective to others that can't see it cause they haven't been there themselves. Or no? Did I get it wrong? I'm always wrong. :(
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That's pretty much it. You are right.
 
PeaceSeeker said:
I have a problem with this sentence towards the end of the video:



IMO, unless any enlightened being has actually agreed to teach the less enlightened, it shouldn't be compulsory for them to undertake such a task .... especially with the prospect of death.
Click to expand...


I understand your sentiments about this particular part of the video. I felt a bit of apprehension when I considered the idea of death. I'm not sure I'd want to die in order to bring people into a more enlightened state. I do think though that many people who are enlightened naturally want to share that knowledge and perspective with others. I don't like to call myself enlightened really, but I suppose in some ways I am. It can feel like a lonely place sometimes and I like to draw people into that. Sometimes it doesn't go so well.

I suppose that this death doesn't always have to be physical. It could be the death of ideas, perspectives, hopes. Everything that we used to believe was true dies as we start to see the truth anyway. Death isn't such a bad thing.
 
sandra_b said:
I don't like to call myself enlightened really, but I suppose in some ways I am. It can feel like a lonely place sometimes and I like to draw people into that. Sometimes it doesn't go so well.
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This "not going well" can be a kind of death as it can lead to a certain type of isolation, even among many social networks and interactions. Some will even kill by writing you off.

sandra_b said:
Everything that we used to believe was true dies as we start to see the truth anyway. Death isn't such a bad thing.
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I agree....beholding truth can be a thing of beauty and terror, but the terror (although real) seems slight when compared with the beauty. The illusory holds no attraction any more, but there are consequences to this.
 
Not considering myself enlightened, by any means, but I do not consider death too big a sacrifice in the least. A death often holds more meaning than a life.
 
PeaceSeeker said:
I have a problem with this sentence towards the end of the video:



IMO, unless any enlightened being has actually agreed to teach the less enlightened, it shouldn't be compulsory for them to undertake such a task .... especially with the prospect of death.
Click to expand...

I don't think it would be compulsory because who would force the enlightened to enlighten others if they're the only one who knows? So I think the idea of compulsion to be false in this case. What I see is a duty to bring society, the world and our species forward for those who can.

Ultimately, you do not need to die for your cause or even need to actively try to enlighten, Galileo taught us that. At the very least, you need to leave a trail or puzzle behind that will eventually lead to a rediscovery.
 
I like the video and can relate it to my life very well.

I too was surprised to hear this at the end:

It is the task of the enlightened not only to ascend to learning and to see the good, but to be willing to descend again to those prisoners and to share their troubles and their honours whether they are worth having or not ..... and this they must do even with the prospect of death.
Click to expand...

To me - this means to follow the teachings of "Do No Harm" as best as one can - even if it causes one's own death. This is living with one's integrity - honor - and a commitment to Truth.

I remember [MENTION=3589]donkeybals[/MENTION] making a comment on another thread about when a person saves another person in an emergency situation. He maintained they did it without any expectation of recognition or feeling special or anything in return for their act EVEN though they might have endangered their own life. I agree with that. I know it's not technically "enlightening an individual" - but it is roughly the same for me.
 
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I believe that enlightenment is an awareness that all is not what it seems. As we grow, our ability to understand evolves. And even though we may have a better understanding than some, It's pretty much a given, that tomorrow's perception will be even clearer. With that awareness, comes a sense of humility that makes one approachable to those seeking a better understanding. But it can also expose one to ridicule, rejection and yes, ultimately death.

I believe it is ones obligation to graciously share with those desiring to learn. However, I don't see the point in trying to force anyone to see things the way I do. That seems futile for many reasons. One of them being that tomorrow I may very well have a different perception.
 
I must say that I'm very pleasantly surprised at how the majority of people are willing to sacrifice their own lives for the betterment of others.
There just may be some hope left for the human race.
 
Norwich said:
I believe that enlightenment is an awareness that all is not what it seems. As we grow, our ability to understand evolves. And even though we may have a better understanding than some, It's pretty much a given, that tomorrow's perception will be even clearer. With that awareness, comes a sense of humility that makes one approachable to those seeking a better understanding. But it can also expose one to ridicule, rejection and yes, ultimately death.

I believe it is ones obligation to graciously share with those desiring to learn.

However, I don't see the point in trying to force anyone to see things the way I do. That seems futile for many reasons. One of them being that tomorrow I may very well have a different perception.
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[MENTION=2716]Norwich[/MENTION]

I have found this to be very true in looking back over my life.

This reminds me of a saying that I've heard: Most of our thoughts, beliefs, and emotions are as waves on the surface of an ocean. Sometimes they are large and choppy - sometimes they are smooth and evenly small. All the while the deeps of the ocean remains relatively calm.

I think this realization encourages meeting new opportunities as an occasion to learn, try on new concepts, discard the ones that do not fit, and emerge with new understanding of how little I really "know". Humility - yes?
 
[MENTION=2578]K-gal[/MENTION];
K-gal said:
This reminds me of a saying that I've heard: Most of our thoughts, beliefs, and emotions are as waves on the surface of an ocean. Sometimes they are large and choppy - sometimes they are smooth and evenly small. All the while the deeps of the ocean remains relatively calm.
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I really like this. The challenge it would seem is to be continually aware of what exists within the depths as opposed to reacting to surface events. Guess that's where meditation comes in huh?
 
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