Part II Can you reason with the ideological?

[Satya]

The last thread ended with some interesting conclusions.

As usual, it seems how you argue a position is just as important, if not more important, than what you are arguing. Discrediting or devalidating another individual's opinion seems to have the effect of hurting them even if the intent is good and the reasoning is valid. If you attack or defend a position in a manner that appears heartless, mean, ruthless, or demeaning, then however reasonable your position may be, it will be lost in the hurt feelings and broken spirit of the other individual.

Second, the effect of defending the rational of a position may entrench the arguer in fervor and righteousness so that they fail to see the effect their arguments have on the other individual.

What is clear from these two points is that it is impossible to reason with someone who is ideological by arguing or debating with them because your actions will be seen as hammering or badgering and you will be seen as having no concern for the other individual's feelings.

I also wondered if emotional manipulation would be an appropriate means of reasoning with the ideological. After all, propaganda and persuasion are largely based on utilizing an individual's emotional state to sway their beliefs and people are typically unaware that they are even being controlled in this manner.

It is clear to me that this is an inherently narcissistic approach and could not be considered reasonable. An individual who has to rely on preying on the fears and insecurities of others to push their position is doing nothing more than trying to control those who disagree with them through guilt or shame. It takes an incredibly insecure individual to exploit the fears and insecurities of others.

Nonetheless, I think the answer to my original question is a resounding no. I have had to rethink how I view opinions and ideology. I think our personal experience and how we feel about things is ultimately more important in the formation of belief than what we think. In fact, I think we like to believe a lot of things simply because they make us feel good and lead to good experiences even if they are completely irrational.

What do you think?

 

[bickelz]

Sounds about right but it matters how ideological they are though.

 

[randomsomeone]

What do you think?

I think "rational" may be in the eye of the beholder....one person's logic may not necessarily measure up to someone else's logic. I see this all the time. Generally, the initial assumptions are misaligned and that, at some point, derails the whole process.

I could be wrong when speaking in general, but I have only seen change like this happen when life experience touches us somehow and the "target" of the ideology becomes not the "other" but something more familiar....a person with feelings and struggles and hopes and life. We relate personally. This often happens to us via family members (immediate or extended) and/or through friends and co-workers. For example, we may have a lesser view of the homeless, but when we spend time with them (perhaps through volunteering) we see their true humanity and see us in them. Autism may be a foreign topic to us, but if our child or grandchild is diagnosed with this, it changes our perspective completely. Divorce may be anathema to us, but when one's friend's (or child's) marriage falls apart before our eyes, we grasp things suddenly with a clarity that a purely cerebral encounter could never match.

I suspect ideologies thrive and subsist on targeting some disembodied "other"...and as long as they remain so this works fine. "They" are the enemy, "they" are the problem." As long as "they" remain the other, they can remain a target within that ideology. That self-feeding system has to be broken somehow....and I see personal experience coming into play here. This is not a logic of the mind, but a logic of the heart which, I feel, is by far the more potent of the two.

 

[just me]

I question why we argue in the first place.

Perception; we should never leave perception out of our thinking and feeling. A dog can perceive a threat from a person before the person has committed to doing something he shouldn't. We see this easier sometimes in animals, but people have different levels of perception, too.

quote" I have had to rethink how I view opinions and ideology. I think our personal experience and how we feel about things is ultimately more important in the formation of belief than what we think." If you stop right there and do not continue with the rest of what was said, it interests me. But, when you add...

quote" In fact, I think we like to believe a lot of things simply because they make us feel good and lead to good experiences even if they are completely irrational." The part that loses my interest is the word "irrational". Why does that word rub me in the wrong manner? Maybe, just maybe, these things could seem completely irrational to some while not at all to others...even different levels in between. We, meaning people in general, comprehend things differently.

I am glad to see de-escalation. We, meaning each of us, should treat others reasonably when we try to be reasonable.

 

[randomsomeone]

Here's another random idea that may or may not have a place in this discussion. I remember years ago visiting with some friends in Indian Country about various aspects of how the Tribes deal with the "dominant culture." The term caught my attention. What is it like, and how does it affect us, to not live within the parameters of the dominant culture? I propose that we fight it (and there is probably a just time for this) and/or we adjust our perspectives a bit (rather than drive ourselves mad with frustration). I think we must at some point make peace with certain realities, stand down, and embrace the uniqueness, diversity, and gifts within us. For many of us, being in the mainstream is just not going to happen. We have to build an internal culture that is heathy and happy and whole, and I suspect fixating too much on what others think or do could diminish those efforts. I have noted a patience, grace, and dignity coming from people who knew they were different, accepted this, valued it, celebrated it, but did not wait for the approval of the dominant culture to pursue their inner happiness or sense of centeredness.

 

[just me]

quote" embrace the uniqueness, diversity, and gifts within us" unquote

Tough pill to swallow, sometimes and for some people. Regarding spiritual things, I have found through experience many people will do anything to try and put your fire out if they don't understand the fuel. I also learned not to expect others to understand what they might see in me, or even me personally. What I have that might be a gift, for example, may be beyond the comprehension of most other people. Bearing gifts can be a burden, causing one the need to pull away long enough to refuel. To embrace something somewhat inexplicable to others takes a lot of courage sometimes. Standing one's ground, in light of some others and their possible inabilities to accept things the way they are(with your own life), is not being stubborn or hardheaded...or unreasonable to said person at all.

It may seem that way to others, but I see it as being either "hot or cold" instead of being "lukewarm". quoted, " I would that thou were either hot or cold; but because thou are lukewarm, I will spew thee from My mouth." I can delete the quote if it makes anyone feel uncomfortable....just let me know.

 

[randomsomeone]

Bearing gifts can be a burden, causing one the need to pull away long enough to refuel. To embrace something somewhat inexplicable to others takes a lot of courage sometimes.

Yes, this is what I mean. Embracing our inner gifts (given as a gift) is a whole side of the equation, and we must retain our growth in, connection to, and pursuit of, these gifts. From this position of centeredness and balance we are better equipped, or in a better frame of mind, to interact with the world around us. We are disengaged, not from dialogue, but from the excessive angst that probably helps no one.

 

[justeccentricnotinsane]

The last thread ended with some interesting conclusions.

As usual, it seems how you argue a position is just as important, if not more important, than what you are arguing. Discrediting or devalidating another individual's opinion seems to have the effect of hurting them even if the intent is good and the reasoning is valid. If you attack or defend a position in a manner that appears heartless, mean, ruthless, or demeaning, then however reasonable your position may be, it will be lost in the hurt feelings and broken spirit of the other individual.

Second, the effect of defending the rational of a position may entrench the arguer in fervor and righteousness so that they fail to see the effect their arguments have on the other individual.

What is clear from these two points is that it is impossible to reason with someone who is ideological by arguing or debating with them because your actions will be seen as hammering or badgering and you will be seen as having no concern for the other individual's feelings.

I also wondered if emotional manipulation would be an appropriate means of reasoning with the ideological. After all, propaganda and persuasion are largely based on utilizing an individual's emotional state to sway their beliefs and people are typically unaware that they are even being controlled in this manner.

It is clear to me that this is an inherently narcissistic approach and could not be considered reasonable. An individual who has to rely on preying on the fears and insecurities of others to push their position is doing nothing more than trying to control those who disagree with them through guilt or shame. It takes an incredibly insecure individual to exploit the fears and insecurities of others.

Nonetheless, I think the answer to my original question is a resounding no. I have had to rethink how I view opinions and ideology. I think our personal experience and how we feel about things is ultimately more important in the formation of belief than what we think. In fact, I think we like to believe a lot of things simply because they make us feel good and lead to good experiences even if they are completely irrational.

What do you think?

I'd agree with most of this. It doesn't feel nice being in the minority, I realise this, but I would suggest that the anger is coming from you. And I don't mean that in a critical way.

I can get frustrated with people when they are saying things that I deem to be irrational - like people who are homophobic. But the only way you can approach something you consider to be immoral without getting angry is to accept from the beginning that they won't change their mind. And they might not need to so long as you can feel happy with yourself without needing them to understand. If they're having a go at you, think about how much they must fear you, because these very strict perspectives do come from fear. Particularly in types who think in a very "us and them" way and are unable to look outside of it. They see you as a threat to their culture or to their beliefs or they find their beliefs to be trodden on or offended by something they feel they must not allow. This is their problem, not yours. Understand how the problem got their in the first place and you'll realise that feeling the way you do is a waste of energy. It is not that you don't have the right to be angry. You have every right to be angry, people should not treat you differently for something so trivial as sexual orientation - it's just that your anger is hurting you and you alone and without purpose. It's not about forgiveness exactly, it's not saying "they have a point" or "it's ok to be homophobic" it's just realising that their homophobia is their problem, not yours. There will always be prejudice in the world. That's how the human psyche works, I'm afraid. There will always be someone who is prejudiced. So with that in mind, try to allow them to be prejudiced and hope for their sake they change.

 

[Nixie]

What do you think?

Yes--to some of the above
No--to some of the above

 

[just me]

quote"If they're having a go at you, think about how much they must fear you, because these very strict perspectives do come from fear." unquote

Not so, mon amie. Ever listen to something and it just doesn't sound right? Most all of us must have had this happen a time or two. Some people want to see or hear it right, while others it just doesn't seem to bother. Some people will go to great lengths to see or hear it right.

Even when played right, some music may even just sound better than other music. I find myself accustomed to hearing things the way I feel comfortable with it. Discomfort does not mean fear. For example, a simple song:

[video=youtube;rhN7SG-H-3k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhN7SG-H-3k[/video]

I can hear that played numerous different ways all with the same notes, but one way just hits the mark for me. Some people just like to set the records straight. Some people get amused watching. Some people try to stir others. It keeps going and going. I cannot stand by idly, sometimes but not all the time because of different subjects and levels of passion, and watch someone run all over something I disagree with without saying or typing something. Sometimes I don't have the time. Sometimes I feel it best to just stay out. Right now, I want to hear it the way I feel and think it is supposed to sound. Thus, the link. Make any sense whatsoever with the analogy?

Furthermore, some things can be played to almost perfection by a machine or computer. Something seems missing to me.
[video=youtube;CvphYNLed3o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvphYNLed3o[/video]

Think maybe the human aspect of the term we call "heart" is missing. Some folk may like it fine or possibly better than the other, but I notice the heart is missing. The first video shows a man playing with his heart into it; the second, a computer generated sound from written music. I like the first.

The last thing I want to see is someone taking something personally when it is not intended to be so. I also do not wish to type something to the detriment of another, but emotions can get in the midst of coversations and it will happen on occasion. I know I have had my feelings hurt in the past discussing these things, but have found it best to try and not take it TOO personally. If I do not have my heart in it in some manner, though, it just will not sound right.