Overemphasis of Fe vs Fi: pros and cons

[Gaze]

What are the pros or cons of Fe vs. Fi?

Seems that Fe is often expressed as superior to Fi, assuming Fi is just a selfish and self centered function. Fe is assumed to be great and beneficial, self sacrificial with it's presumed other vs. self orientation and social harmony, and great at all times.

Agree that Fi has it's flaws but seems Fe's flaws are often overlooked.

 

[Erlian]

I agree with your observation.
Of the 4 judging functions my Fi is the most unused and I don't really feel I need to change that.
There's two things I miss Fi for.
1) Knowing how to deal with my emotions
2) Not always putting others first

Downsides of Fe would be
- Too much self-sacrificing
- ?

Fe is external and thus 'for others'.
Fi is internal and 'for yourself'.
It's only natural that Fi is seen as selfish and Fe is valued as function by others.

I've noticed the difference myself too.
I dated an ISFP (Fi and Se). She was quite selfish in some way. Not that she wasn't nice or caring, but not very considering. A classic lack of Fe I concluded later when I read about the functions.
A girl I'm dating now is an ISFJ (Si and Fe). Although she's emotionally not very well developed I clearly notice the Fe and I love it. Maybe because my Fe is strong I prefer others to reciprocate the consideration.

So yeah as far as I've seen Fe is superior to me. I hope someone can prove me wrong, so I can see both functions on an equal level.

Edit: I'm reading this one right now: http://personalitycafe.com/articles/63173-fi-vs-fe-101-a.html
Not convinced of equal values yet.

Edit2: nvm, that thread is just more confusing.

 

[LucyJr]

Its funny, because to me Fi was always the unselfish function, while Fe its rather superficial.

Fi values indeed only some specific values instead of others, but that does not translate to selfishness...or to be more correct, that is the type of selfishness that is good: internal integrity, a perfect internal alignement with personal values.

 

[LucyJr]

Fi users are described as moralist, because they can judge well the proper moral intentions behind actions.

 

[Rcs6r]

Fi is excellent at sifting through the bullshit, at least in my experience being Fi-dom. You can pick up on a lot of subtler behaviors in people either through their vocal cues or body language and it's very telling if someone is being genuine or putting on a facade. It's not perfect, I don't think use of any of the functions is, but I find I'm more often right about my judgements than not.

I wouldn't say it's selfishness that Fi promotes, but rather the preservation of the self and the need to forge an identity. In many situations, if I don't feel I have much in common with a person or group of people when looking for friends, I'd just avoid them because I need a personal connection to open up - something to relate to. That's not to say I couldn't have small talk or help out a stranger in need, but I'm not going to reveal a lot about myself to them.

I dated an ISFP (Fi and Se). She was quite selfish in some way. Not that she wasn't nice or caring, but not very considering. A classic lack of Fe I concluded later when I read about the functions.

I've noticed this a little bit in myself at times; it mainly comes from prioritizing mental energy. I tend to be extremely focused once I'm handling a task, and sometimes that means sort of zoning out others. For instance, at work it seems like my coworkers want to talk a little bit more on the job, but I'm in the middle of trying to remember where things go, keeping things organized, what needs to be done first, so I often go for long stretches of not speaking and some could consider this arrogance "does he think he's too good to talk to me?". Not true, I'd enjoy talking to them but when I'm working, I'm working.

In an under-developed or unhealthy Fi-type, this could manifest in a way you described your girlfriend: blocking out the world, taking but never giving back, wallowing in one's emotions and living in one's head too much. In that situation, they need to find an outlet to vent, or find inner strength to make positive change. But once the Fi-dom type is at their best, they can be just has open and considerate as anyone else.

 

[Gaze]

I've noticed this a little bit in myself at times; it mainly comes from prioritizing mental energy. I tend to be extremely focused once I'm handling a task, and sometimes that means sort of zoning out others. For instance, at work it seems like my coworkers want to talk a little bit more on the job, but I'm in the middle of trying to remember where things go, keeping things organized, what needs to be done first, so I often go for long stretches of not speaking and some could consider this arrogance "does he think he's too good to talk to me?". Not true, I'd enjoy talking to them but when I'm working, I'm working.

This is exactly how I am as well, and yes, it's too easily misunderstood. When I'm in the zone and focused on getting things done, I can't spent time fraternizing or Fe-ing because I will lose concentration and screw up what I'm doing. It may seem inefficient to some, but that's just how it is. I'd rather concentrate and get something done properly or well, than trying to balancing my energy focusing on socializing and organizing, and not do anything properly at all. It's wasted energy. I think people need to realize and accept that each person operates and functions differently, not that one function is better than another. I think it's nonsense when anyone says Fe is other centered and Fi is selfish. I use my Fi to help me decide who is going to be a good fit for me to socialize or interact with. If something doesn't feel right then it's probably for a good reason. No need to force it or push Fe when it's just not working.

I've seen too many Fe users force their Fe on those they see as lacking sufficient Fe, or high Fe-users show a complete lack of sensitivity to what someone feels or thinks because they're focused on being liked and getting along with the crowd. Bullying often benefits from strong Fe-dependence. Fe is often used to make someone feel uncomfortable if they don't fit in. For example, someone gets everyone to rally around them to support their belief that someone deserves to be bullied and those who don't want to seem like outliers go along to be part of the crowd who is not against the bully, so they don't question the rational of the bully because they don't want to seem like the odd one out. So, Fe taken to the extreme can be just as dangerous in it's use as someone with high Fi who clings too strongly to their personal feelings to the point of ignoring everything else, and missing how their actions maybe viewed by others especially if the behavior is destructive.

Edit: And yes, Fi can spot BS a mile away. The hardest part of course is to still have to interact with people even if the BS is being piled on in your face. One of the main reasons I limit my personal interactions with people. Fe can also be extremely superficial which is why it can be tough to have a conversation with some high Fe users because the conversation can be so surface and never go anywhere. At some point, there's not much else you can say.

 

[Erlian]

Thanks for showing me the other side. And yes I have experience with an unhealty Fi-dom. Combined with Se and alcohol:

I, myself, am definitely a Fe user and when I'm working on something the thing that will almost guarantee to take over my attention are other people.
Fe is indeed more superficial, even being nice to people you don't like. I recognise that.

If I look back on my teens, I show both some strong Fi and strong Fe parts.
I was obsessed with having people not dislike me. I would go great lengths to not offend people. Never be pushy.
On the other hand I really kept to myself. No alcohol or smoking, because I thought it was pathetic. I still possess some values that always come up to me again.
Honesty for example. Brutal honesty. This clashes with my Fe often and I've learned ways to sugercoat criticism.

I can see how bullying works with Fe, but I think you can argue for both sides there.
Already on elementary I was (and still am) the guy who is the first friend of the 'new kid'. I'm really sensitive to excluding people. But maybe that's my INTJ Fi at work. I've never really been hurt in my past, except exclusion. Everyone like me, but I didn't belong anywhere. So maybe I can just relate to the new kid and thus desire to help them.

I think it's nonsense when anyone says Fe is other centered and Fi is selfish.

I see how 'selfish' is a bad word and how my first post was too much in favour of Fe. But bear with me trying to understand this.
Dealing with your own feelings (Fi) isn't necessarily selfish. By not interacting with people you don't like you save them and yourself a lot of energy.
Fe can be related to blindly following dictators. Everyone follows him, so I can't step out of line.
But in these cases Fi is still related to your own gut feeling (which is undoubtly right very often, as I trust my Ni) and not to the feelings of the other.
Fe is related to others. Everyone fits in and there's social pressure to not rebel against the dictator. A Fi-dom would be much more inclined to rebel than a Fe-dom.

Fi follows his or her own values.
Fe follows the values of the crowd.
Both can be good and bad, but Fi would still be more "selfish". Like Lucy said:

that is the type of selfishness that is good: internal integrity, a perfect internal alignement with personal values.

Fe users can be superficial and bullying. Fi users can be selfish and inconsiderate.
But both can also be the other way around.
Fi users can have strong internal integrity. Fe users can be very considerate.

Thanks, it worked.

So yeah as far as I've seen Fe is superior to me. I hope someone can prove me wrong, so I can see both functions on an equal level.

 

[Gaze]

Thanks for showing me the other side. And yes I have experience with an unhealty Fi-dom. Combined with Se and alcohol:

I, myself, am definitely a Fe user and when I'm working on something the thing that will almost guarantee to take over my attention are other people.
Fe is indeed more superficial, even being nice to people you don't like. I recognise that.

If I look back on my teens, I show both some strong Fi and strong Fe parts.
I was obsessed with having people not dislike me. I would go great lengths to not offend people. Never be pushy.
On the other hand I really kept to myself. No alcohol or smoking, because I thought it was pathetic. I still possess some values that always come up to me again.
Honesty for example. Brutal honesty. This clashes with my Fe often and I've learned ways to sugercoat criticism.

I can see how bullying works with Fe, but I think you can argue for both sides there.
Already on elementary I was (and still am) the guy who is the first friend of the 'new kid'. I'm really sensitive to excluding people. But maybe that's my INTJ Fi at work. I've never really been hurt in my past, except exclusion. Everyone like me, but I didn't belong anywhere. So maybe I can just relate to the new kid and thus desire to help them.


I see how 'selfish' is a bad word and how my first post was too much in favour of Fe. But bear with me trying to understand this.
Dealing with your own feelings (Fi) isn't necessarily selfish. By not interacting with people you don't like you save them and yourself a lot of energy.
Fe can be related to blindly following dictators. Everyone follows him, so I can't step out of line.
But in these cases Fi is still related to your own gut feeling (which is undoubtly right very often, as I trust my Ni) and not to the feelings of the other.
Fe is related to others. Everyone fits in and there's social pressure to not rebel against the dictator. A Fi-dom would be much more inclined to rebel than a Fe-dom.

Fi follows his or her own values.
Fe follows the values of the crowd.
Both can be good and bad, but Fi would still be more "selfish". Like Lucy said:


Fe users can be superficial and bullying. Fi users can be selfish and inconsiderate.
But both can also be the other way around.
Fi users can have strong internal integrity. Fe users can be very considerate.

Thanks, it worked.

Both functions have their pros and cons.

Fi users don't always advertise their general concern or care for others. So, they may seem to be less considerate but do so more in subtle action, thought, or deed without it being obvious or visible as a Fe user might be. Both can be considerate in their own way.

 

[WaterOx]

Fi is not "selfish" it is self referential. It is just as easy to argue that Fi has great integrity and depth while Fe is subject to the whims of others.

 

[barbad0s]

What are the pros or cons of Fe vs. Fi?

Seems that Fe is often expressed as superior to Fi, assuming Fi is just a selfish and self centered function. Fe is assumed to be great and beneficial, self sacrificial with it's presumed other vs. self orientation and social harmony, and great at all times.

Agree that Fi has it's flaws but seems Fe's flaws are often overlooked.

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that ESFJs and ENFJs are equally hated on in the MBTI community as INFPs and ISFPs. ESPECIALLY the ESFJs.

 

[DonTaushMe]

I don't have any flaws. I just like Fe users cause they pay attention to me lol >.>

Well, the nice Fe users

And I have some flaws

 

[Gaze]

I don't have any flaws. I just like Fe users cause they pay attention to me lol >.>

Well, the nice Fe users

And I have some flaws

Funny enough, I've met more than a few Fe users who pay attention to me but completely ignore how I feel or what I say when I'm speaking but they think they're being nice because they're giving me a lot of "fe" attention (which I didn't ask for). Now, I simply just nod and say yes, to what they say rather than give my own opinion about anything. They pay attention but don't listen. Giving someone attention doesn't necessarily mean they're being nice or helpful. I cannot tell you how often I've met Fes who call attention to someone simply because they are quiet, and make them feel uncomfortable because they're not as verbal or expressive about their feelings. All attention is not good attention.

 

[Gaze]

I don't think so. I'm pretty sure that ESFJs and ENFJs are equally hated on in the MBTI community as INFPs and ISFPs. ESPECIALLY the ESFJs.

Whether or not they're hated on other forums has nothing to do with the statement that both Fis and Fes have their faults. Some flaws are recognized in some types but ignored in others.

 

[barbad0s]

Whether or not they're hated on other forums has nothing to do with the statement that both Fis and Fes have their faults. Some flaws are recognized in some types but ignored in others.

.... it has nothing to do with THAT statement, you're right. but the very premise u started your thread with, which is THIS statement:

"Seems that Fe is often expressed as superior to Fi, assuming Fi is just a selfish and self centered function. Fe is assumed to be great and beneficial, self sacrificial with it's presumed other vs. self orientation and social harmony, and great at all times. "

... which is what i was referring to (hence DIRECTLY QUOTING IT), is incorrect

 

[sprinkles]

I think people confuse autonomy, identity and individuality. They're all different things.

Identity is the concept of making sure you and everyone else knows who you are.

Individuality is the concept of being separate. Has nothing to do with identity. Throw a bunch of unmarked golf balls in a bucket and they all look the same even though they are individual.

Autonomy is the concept of being able to act on one's own volition, i.e. not a puppet and not operating on mere impulse. It doesn't make one selfish or self interested when they defend their autonomy. Most people don't like to feel coerced regardless of their type, and regardless of the idea in question. You recognize your own choice to accept or reject ideas, regardless of who owns them - they might be yours or they might belong to someone else.

 

[sassafras]

Fi is not "selfish" it is self referential. It is just as easy to argue that Fi has great integrity and depth while Fe is subject to the whims of others.

This in a nutshell.

 

[Gaze]

.... it has nothing to do with THAT statement, you're right. but the very premise u started your thread with, which is THIS statement:

"Seems that Fe is often expressed as superior to Fi, assuming Fi is just a selfish and self centered function. Fe is assumed to be great and beneficial, self sacrificial with it's presumed other vs. self orientation and social harmony, and great at all times. "

... which is what i was referring to (hence DIRECTLY QUOTING IT), is incorrect

Maybe it's not true on other forums, but when I first started the thread, it was commonly stated fact here. This is why I first started the thread. In any case, my main point was to open a discussion about misunderstandings of Fe vs. Fi, so that both are fairly represented rather than one described as positive or good and the other bad or negative, which is often the case when the differences are discussed.

 

[muir]

Maybe it's not true on other forums, but when I first started the thread, it was commonly stated fact here. This is why I first started the thread. In any case, my main point was to open a discussion about misunderstandings of Fe vs. Fi, so that both are fairly represented rather than one described as positive or good and the other bad or negative, which is often the case when the differences are discussed.

Well how do you guage the success of a type?

Do you speak to lots of them and record how healthy and happy they are?

Do you find out what contributions they make to society?

Or something else?

if you have a toolbox and you go to do a DIY job you're not going to be able to do much if the only tool in the box is a hammer; equally the survival of the human race is a job and the different personality types are the tools we have to do that job

The only reason we are doing such a bad job is because there are so few INFJ's bah ha ha! ***amuses himself with a crap and highly biased joke***

 

[barbad0s]

Maybe it's not true on other forums, but when I first started the thread, it was commonly stated fact here. This is why I first started the thread. In any case, my main point was to open a discussion about misunderstandings of Fe vs. Fi, so that both are fairly represented rather than one described as positive or good and the other bad or negative, which is often the case when the differences are discussed.

omg, i'm gonna open an extrovert oppression support thread in this forum next

 

[Gaze]

omg, i'm gonna open an extrovert oppression support thread in this forum next

what the fuck are you talking about? The thread was originally started because I noticed a trend in discussions about Fi which treated Fi as selfish. I am not sure where it's been stated in this thread that Fe's are not subject to misunderstandings or misrepresentations.