One day kill all Jews

[muir]

Just me

What has Hitler got to do with a discussion about what the thread starter has claimed is a current rising tide of bad feeling towards jews?

I hope the more objective readers can discern which people in this discussion are actually discussing ways in which the future safety of jews can be assured and which posters seem intent on maintaining the status quo (in which jews don't feel safe)

The OP expressed concern about bad feelings towards jews in muslim lands

I have attempted in a candid manner to put forward the idea, which i believe is very reasonable, that the reason some muslims have bad feelings towards jews is largely related to two factors:

1. That Israel is currently following an expansionist policy
2. That the US has also developed a bad image in the muslim world due to its interference in muslim countries (that includes the UK, which has a terrible record of taking resources from the muslims) and that the US and Israel are very close allies

So when you step back from the situation and look at it objectively, it becomes clear that due to the actions of the US and Israel there is a lot of bad feeling towards those countries in muslim countries and around the world.

In the UK our news has been filled with horrific stories coming out of the middle east for decades now......the region has been unstable for a long time. Israel has got nuclear weapons and due to the neo-imperialist aggression of the US many muslim countries now feel they have to arm themselves with ever more powerful weapons....its a new arms race!

But lets face it there are people who profit from conflict....the people behind the military industrial complex.

So if people want to have a deep and honest discussion about negative feelings towards jews then i strongly recommend they consider and research these issues

I also want to make the suggestion that instead of an arms race it would ultimatley be safer and less destructive to pour all these energies into building bridges between jews and muslims; i do however worry that there are other parties who have interests in preventing peace

Jews and muslims have lived side by side in peace before and i believe they can do it again, but only if they can look each other in the eye as equals and brothers and sisters

As well as pointing out to jews that there might be reasons why muslims are pissed of with them i have also pointed the same out to US americans.

Below is a clip of Noam Chomsky discussing why there is hate among muslims towards the Israel-US alliance, including a quote from a US government body back in the 1950's:

[video=youtube;6pfcW0_sSuw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pfcW0_sSuw[/video]

 

[just me]

" Pogrom in Russian means devastation. Until recently, the term described exclusively the organized or spontaneous massacres of Jews. In Russia the worst pogroms occurred in 1881, 1903, 1905, and during the civil war following the Revolution of 1917 in areas controlled by the anti-Bolshevik White armies, especially the Ukraine."

All this before Hitler's letter of 1919. I can go back hundreds of years with citations. Can you blame the Jews for the hatred and their treatment? You think you know why they are being treated as such now, but can you explain why they were treated thusly back then? Can you not see this has been going on for centuries? It has not always been about peace in the ME. I really do not think it is just about that now.

 

[this is only temporary]

Jews and muslims have lived side by side in peace before and i believe they can do it again, but only if they can look each other in the eye as equals and brothers and sisters

They do. Right now. Here in the US, with New York being perhaps the largest and best example.

I live in the US, and my children have had two Muslim Pre-k teachers; there are several Muslim students at my (horrible! awful! evil! Muslim-hating! war-mongering!) US-Run public school, and the lady who teaches my Zumba/HipHop/Bellydancing class is Muslim (but she is not the exactly the veil-wearing kind). There are a few Jews who live and work here, and take Zumba, but the majority of the population are Baptists. I think I can truthfully say everyone feels safe living together. Jews and Muslims are both definitely in the minority, but I do believe they feel safe living here.

That's because all these people -- real people, living real lives like 99% of people everywhere -- are moderate. M O D E R A T E. Not extremist. Not Anti-American, not trying to convert everyone else to their political beliefs like some people do, just law-obiding, hard working people. They don't WANT to go around fighting, they'd much rather get on with their lives.

Point being: there are far more media stories about cultures clashing, when in reality, if you look around for more than five minutes and get your head out of your butt, the various groups get along and live side-by-side in peace far more often than they clash. If that weren't true, nobody would ever be able to accomplish anything around here because we would all be fighting non-stop.

It is extremist stories and views, and lack of familiarity with the actual cultures involved, and reading and spreading propaganda more than facts, that makes it seem like the groups can't live in peace. They can and do all the time. Just not so much in the media, you have to look at boring, ordinary, non-extreme, non-political, prosaic, HUMAN situations.

 

[Stu]

They do. Right now. Here in the US, with New York being perhaps the largest and best example.

.

thank you for taking the time to register and to voice an opinion.

 

[this is only temporary]

um.... really? Well, if that's the case, You're welcome!

And on a totally unrelated and somewhat confusing note, a guy named Abdul who is normally based in Dubai and is (I am farily certain) Muslim, just came by my desk and asked for help collecting toys for the Christmas toy drive. He's running it, and he also asked the Jewish lady two desks away for help too.

Perfect timing.

I couldn't make this shit up if I tried.

 

[muir]

They do. Right now. Here in the US, with New York being perhaps the largest and best example.

I live in the US, and my children have had two Muslim Pre-k teachers; there are several Muslim students at my (horrible! awful! evil! Muslim-hating! war-mongering!) US-Run public school, and the lady who teaches my Zumba/HipHop/Bellydancing class is Muslim (but she is not the exactly the veil-wearing kind). There are a few Jews who live and work here, and take Zumba, but the majority of the population are Baptists. I think I can truthfully say everyone feels safe living together. Jews and Muslims are both definitely in the minority, but I do believe they feel safe living here.

That's because all these people -- real people, living real lives like 99% of people everywhere -- are moderate. M O D E R A T E. Not extremist. Not Anti-American, not trying to convert everyone else to their political beliefs like some people do, just law-obiding, hard working people. They don't WANT to go around fighting, they'd much rather get on with their lives.

Point being: there are far more media stories about cultures clashing, when in reality, if you look around for more than five minutes and get your head out of your butt, the various groups get along and live side-by-side in peace far more often than they clash. If that weren't true, nobody would ever be able to accomplish anything around here because we would all be fighting non-stop.

It is extremist stories and views, and lack of familiarity with the actual cultures involved, and reading and spreading propaganda more than facts, that makes it seem like the groups can't live in peace. They can and do all the time. Just not so much in the media, you have to look at boring, ordinary, non-extreme, non-political, prosaic, HUMAN situations.

Yeah most people want to live an honest, peaceful life and just get along with other people, sadly the actions of the elite have caused economic upheval that is going to affect us all

When i said jews and muslims can live peacefully side by side i meant in the middle east....was that not clear from the context?

I agree most people want to just get along but we mustn't blind ourselves to the realities of what is going on in the world.

Now is not the time to zumba our cares away. Now is the time to look around us with eyes wide open and get engaged with the political process because there are big changes happening

 

[muir]

" Pogrom in Russian means devastation. Until recently, the term described exclusively the organized or spontaneous massacres of Jews. In Russia the worst pogroms occurred in 1881, 1903, 1905, and during the civil war following the Revolution of 1917 in areas controlled by the anti-Bolshevik White armies, especially the Ukraine."

All this before Hitler's letter of 1919. I can go back hundreds of years with citations. Can you blame the Jews for the hatred and their treatment? You think you know why they are being treated as such now, but can you explain why they were treated thusly back then? Can you not see this has been going on for centuries? It has not always been about peace in the ME. I really do not think it is just about that now.

I think if you want to understand these events then you should look at them one at a time in the context of their time

I didn't say that it is all about the middle east....i said very clearly it is also to do with the relationship between the US and Israel. If you explore that relationship i think you will move closer to the truth

If you do not think it is all about the middle east then please explain what you do think it is about

Many different groups have been persecuted in Europe over the centuries and although the jews have often suffered terribly they are not the only people who have suffered.

Groups are often persecuted becasue they are perceived by the powers that be to be a threat. The cathars for example were persecuted because their beliefs were seen as heretical by the RC Church.

The Knights Templar were also seen as heretical but they also weilded financial influence which also made them a target for the powers that be.

You mentioned Hitler before and i mentioned the Bush family before so just for your interest i thought i'd mention a link between the two.

Prescott Bush, who was President Bush Snrs father was a Wall Street Banker, a Senator and like his son and grandson was a member of the skull and bones secret society. He was one of 7 directors of the Union Banking Corporation which was controlled by the Thyssen family.

Fritz Thyssen was a German business man and nationalist who was angry at the Versailles reparations after WWI. He watched Hitler give some speeches and was impressed by him. He then funded Hitler. Thyssen claimed to have funded Hitler to the tune of 1 million marks to the Nazi party.

In 1942 Union banking Corporation was suspected of holding gold on behalf of Nazi leaders and although these accusations were later dropped, the bank was seized under the Trading With The Enemy Act and its assets held until after the war.

To what extent was Bush aware of the banks activites? I don't know

Hitler's solution to the hyper inflation in Germany was to avoid trying to buy extra funds on the money market, thus circumventing the global bankers (who always charged interest on money) and instead he used 'mefo bills' (promissary notes promising labour) and he printed his own currency. He also seized the assets of people he believed to be an enemy of the state including jews.

The result of this was that unemployment fell from 6 million in 1932 to 1 million in 1936. Using his new currency (which didn't have any interest applied to it by the international bankers) he launched a massive infrastructure improvement project which involved the building of autobahns, damns, railroads etc. He also funded a huge amount of architecture and hosted the Olympic games in 1936

Germany went from being economically ruined to be an industrial and military powerhouse in a very short time. He had huge popular support within Germany which is why he was able to wage such a fierce war on two fronts.

The downside of this was the persecution of many people (not just jews) and the loss of freedoms that would have come with such a centrally controlled country; however as i have stated there was a lot of popular support so it seems people didn't seem too bothered with living under a centrally controlled system, at that time.

The other downside was that Hitler aggressively expanded outward and due to his refussal to indebt Germany to the international bankers he became a target for them.....factors which lead to WWII

I think if such destructive explosions of energy are to be avoided then there is a need for greater equality. Much like a charge developing between positives and negatives that are far apart, large inequality generates a big charge; that energy has to go somewhere.

A huge amount of energy was building up in Germany and that energy was going to go somewhere.

I do think there is a lot of energy building in the world at the moment and the important thing to ensure is that energy is not directed at a group of people along religious or ethnic lines

The energy needs to be directed against those responsible for the economic trouble and that is the 1%

I'm not talking about a violent revolution. i'm not advocating bringing back the guillotine, or hurting the 1%, i'm advocating peaceful non cooperation by the workers until the system is changed to one where there is greater equailty and the energy becomes balanced again (idea from Kabbalah)

 

[just me]

@muir ,

I seem to have a video clip, too, regarding my current feelings. I am certain the ball will represent something absolutely different to each of us, as will the end of the video.

[video=youtube;cQ-t4DhAfrs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ-t4DhAfrs[/video]

While many argue this started with the formation of the country of Israel, I have copied from wikipedia a few things before that.

[edit] Nineteenth century

According to Mark Cohen, Arab anti-Semitism in the modern world arose relatively recently, in the nineteenth century, against the backdrop of conflicting Jewish and Arab nationalism, and was imported into the Arab world primarily by nationalistically minded Christian Arabs (and only subsequently was it "Islamized").[SUP][85][/SUP]
The Damascus affair occurred in 1840, when an Italian monk and his servant disappeared in Damascus. Immediately following, a charge of ritual murder was brought against a large number of Jews in the city. All were found guilty. The consuls of England, France and Austria as well as Ottoman authorities, Christians, Muslims and Jews all played a great role in this affair.[SUP][86][/SUP] Following the Damascus affair, Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa. Pogroms occurred in: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901

 

[muir]

Just me

I don't want to take sides here and start trading atrocities; the aim is not to demonise muslims or jews, its to discuss why people are unsafe in order to discuss possible solutions to that

I want to put a counter balance to the spirit of the thread which seems to be one of saying that jews are unsafe because everyone else in the world are violent, hateful bigots

I mentioned Hitler and the Bankers to highlight the fact that although we are often told that people do things simply because they are 'evil' that that is a very childlike view of events and that in reality there are pressures acting on people often related to things like: money, oil or gold

For example the US invaded Iraq after Bush called it part of the 'axis of evil' but in reality the US would have gone nowhere near it if it wasn't sitting on vast amounts of oil and if it hadn't begun to trade that oil in euros instead of dollars

People in power will often play on peoples basic fear of the unknown whether that unknown is another culture or religion or whether it is economic crises in order to garner their support

If people around the world are going to work together they will need to learn the games that the powerful often play to manipulate people in order to avoid falling foul of them

Sadly many people are continuing to be swept along in the hate games which is why the conflict will continue

 

[just me]

"Sadly many people are continuing to be swept along in the hate games which is why the conflict will continue "

I agree it is sad, but we just do not see eye to eye regarding specific issues. We have agreed on something.

"I want to put a counter balance to the spirit of the thread which seems to be one of saying that jews are unsafe because everyone else in the world are violent, hateful bigots "

We disagree on this.

 

[muir]

"Sadly many people are continuing to be swept along in the hate games which is why the conflict will continue "

I agree it is sad, but we just do not see eye to eye regarding specific issues. We have agreed on something.

"I want to put a counter balance to the spirit of the thread which seems to be one of saying that jews are unsafe because everyone else in the world are violent, hateful bigots "

We disagree on this.

Do you mean that you think the reason that jews are unsafe is because everyone else in the world are violent, hateful bigots?

 

[just me]

Do you mean that you think the reason that jews are unsafe is because everyone else in the world are violent, hateful bigots?

Same thing as the ball analogy: we don't even see things the same way. I do not see the spirit of the thread this way at all.

 

[Sage]

I hate jews and I am jewish, we are sick and twisted, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish that israel never existed, even if it meant that I wasn't born, because it would mean that many innocent people wouldn't have been hurt by the fighting that we started.

 

[muir]

I hate jews and I am jewish, we are sick and twisted, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, I wish that israel never existed, even if it meant that I wasn't born, because it would mean that many innocent people wouldn't have been hurt by the fighting that we started.

I have some jewish anscestry

I don't wish Israel didn't exist and i can totally understand the jewish drive for homeland particularly in the light of the persecution they have suffered in Europe

What i'm saying is that current policy in israel is not making people safe. Perhaps the best policy would be to ensure the safety and stability of israels neighbours as this would in turn ensure the safety of israel.

I'm also saying that we shouldn't demonise those that persecute because to do so is suggesting that they have acted because they have been possessed by some external thing called 'evil' and not because of internal processes

These people, however horrific their actions are still human beings. People are capable of some pretty horrific things and if we want to avoid those horrific things then we need to look at what is leading to such extreme behaviour

I think Hitler was unhinged with rage. I think that having fought in the trenches of the first world war and having nearly died there he felt betrayed by the actions of people back in germany who he felt lost germany the war. One of the groups he blamed was the jews because of their financial influence for example in banking; there were also many jews with global financial influence (some of which had a dream to create a zionist state) which Hitler saw as having a detrimental effect on germany

Money is behind so many of the worlds problems!

That is why i believe in anarcho-communism and the abolition of money. This would avoid the inequalities we see under capitalism and would avoid the creation of influential elites based on concentrations of wealth.

A fairer world would be a more stable world and therefore a safer world

 

[just me]

The human race was not meant to be like a herd of cows. People need incentives; there will always be the rich and the poor, with the rest. Next! Please keep the line moving.


"What i'm saying is that current policy in israel is not making people safe. Perhaps the best policy would be to ensure the safety and stability of israels neighbours as this would in turn ensure the safety of israel." muir

Looking at Israel's neighbors, I don't see that happening and it is at best wishful thinking in the clouds.

 

[muir]

The human race was not meant to be like a herd of cows. People need incentives; there will always be the rich and the poor, with the rest. Next! Please keep the line moving..

I think that people are being made to act like herds under capitalism....have you seen rush hour....its like the migration of the wilderbeast!

People are pretty culturally homogenised under the current paradigm and also many peoples perceptions of reality and of how the world is is created by a highly centralised corporate media

Anarcho-communism/libertarian socialism offers far more personal freedom. When i say 'socialism' i mean the workers owning the means of production and people doing things voluntarily and not because they are coerced by the state or by powerful private interests.

At the moment we have a 'mixed economy' where we are being coerced by BOTH the state AND by powerful private interests and that is why lifes getting tougher for people. Its a global economy and a global problem and people have been protesting all around the world including in Israel and in arab countries.....its a great opportunity for ALL people to recognise their shared condition and to build solidarity, but as is often the case in times where the 1% feel, like their control over us is being threatened they start to create conflicts and wars because it is a good way of justifying tighter controls at home whilst rallying people behind nationalistic feelings:



'Incentives' can take many forms. Working together as a community and cooperating to build something together can create all sorts of positive incentives. And by positive incentives i mean ones that are more in alignment with our true nature as social animals

I think the kibbutz system in Israel had some interesting ideas but became subverted over time

The 1% want us divided and scared of dangers that they create with their own hostility so that we look for them for protection and leadership.....but their leadership sucks and their 'protection' doesn't make us safe it makes us live in fear

"What i'm saying is that current policy in israel is not making people safe. Perhaps the best policy would be to ensure the safety and stability of israels neighbours as this would in turn ensure the safety of israel." muir

Looking at Israel's neighbors, I don't see that happening and it is at best wishful thinking in the clouds.

What i mean is Israel needs to look to the future. If it wants peace in its future it has to give some kind of future to the Palestinean people as well.

If Israel helps the Palestineans it takes some of the wind out of the sails of any other arab detractors. If Israel helps the creation of a palestinean state and works to ensure their future then it undermines the moral argument of any countries who are criticising the actions of Israel (remember an international convention has ruled that israel is in breach of the Geneva convention)

This isn't the whole picture however. The other part of the picture is the US's imperialist aims within the middle east which revolves around the control of the worlds main oil reserves and also in encircling Russia.

So that's the other problem to solve: the perception around the world that Israel is aligned with an imperialist country (US) that is perceived as an aggressor by most of the world

That problem is going to be a little harder to tackle, but if Israel helped the palestineans then it shows that they have no imperialist ambitions of their own and it becomes easier for the world to see the US as operating unilateraly

 

[just me]

I think it would amaze you at how some folk see our current administration compared to the ones in the past. Hank Williams Jr. has a good way of putting it.

Sad to say many folk actually l;ke the way they see it heading.

I see you believe in Socialism and Communism. I am out of this discussion for good. As Hank said, "You can keep the change!"

 

[muir]

I think it would amaze you at how some folk see our current administration compared to the ones in the past. Hank Williams Jr. has a good way of putting it.

He called Obama Hitler right?

The danger with the two party system is that both are dependent on private concentrations of wealth to fund their political campaigns

This means that if you play their political game then whichever candidate you vote in from those parties (unless they are off message like Ron Paul) they will be representing the interests of the private concentrations of wealth and not the workers

Here's Chomsky talking about the situation in Israel and the antagonistic approach which seems to be policy:

[video=youtube;K0Xq3dvqBEk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0Xq3dvqBEk&feature=related[/video]

My god if this guy was the president of the USA the world would be a very different place.....if he wasn't assassinated that is. As it stands the powers that be just try to marginalise him

 

[InvisibleJim]

I believe the Isreali military does what it can to minimize the damage it causes. I don't trust journalists to report the issues responsibly or from a position of neutrality.

 

[AzulSoul]

justme:

Do you understand that it is not safe for a Jew to visit or live in Amsterdam? Or Sweden? You can of course choose to close your eyes to what is going on. You can tell yourself it won't effect you. That does tend to be the norm -- indifference that allows evil to grow.

Ummmm.... Have you been to Europe? I'll agree that there has been a rise in anti-Semitism in some parts of mainland Europe, but not that it is unsafe for a Jewish person to live there. In any case, parts of Poland are far more anti-Semitic than the Netherlands and Sweden. Also: I'm not evil or allowing evil to spread because I don't hate Muslims and feel that a 'huge' problem that is much smaller than you think is not the end of the world.

I would however say that the jail sentence for racial discrimination should be increased, and that the authorities should do more to tackle this problem caused by minority groups of people as racial discrimination is an unacceptable offence.