Narcissism, Sociopathy and the INFJ

[phoenix]

For those unfamiliar with the specifics of these personality complexes/biological tendencies, this may help: http://sociopathicstyle.com/continuum/psychopathic.htm

Anyways, the resemblences I see between different facets of the INFJ (seen as an archetype or a biochemistry or, as consensus seems to dictate around these MBTI boards, innate neural wiring) and these parasitic mental constitutions are all too startling.

The sociopath: a keen grasp of social mores and the intimate psychology of other people - fears and insecurities and wants.

The narcissist: repressed feelings and idea of self, living inside one's head, relying on others for validation - not constituent of INFJs as a whole, but all too common.

Each begins with an idea, an ideal of what they want (let's say introverted intution), and realizes it through interaction with other people (extroverted feeling). Does a corrupted secondary function, in this case, automatically render an INFJ a malicious type? Or am I splicing archetypes to the point of absurdity? Intution compels me to believe that any MBTI (assuming we regard them as fixed and innate) can combine with any personality disorder, but certainly trends do exist.

My question is: do narcissism and sociopathy just happen to overlap with aspects of the INFJs constitution, or are the two innately connected?

 

[Eventhorizon]

Phoenix, if I may ask. Why is knowing this, researching injf tendency's or like tendency's important to you?

 

[SealHammer]

Phoenix, if I may ask. Why is knowing this, researching injf tendency's or like tendency's important to you?

Why not? One can never know too much.

 

[muir]

I think you've missed the key component here which is empathy

INFJ's are generally very empathetic, whereas the defining feature of sociopaths and narcisists is a lack of empathy, so your theory falls flat

 

[SealHammer]

I think you've missed the key component here which is empathy

INFJ's are generally very empathetic, whereas the defining feature of sociopaths and narcisists is a lack of empathy, so your theory falls flat

Actually, if we take empathy in its broadest definition as "the cognizance of emotion in others", you could easily say that sociopaths have abundant natural empathy - insofar as they understand emotion.
What they lack is sympathy, and I can't even make an honest assumption about whether INFJs necessarily have natural sympathy.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Why not? One can never know too much.

Fair enough.

 

[barbad0s]

For those unfamiliar with the specifics of these personality complexes/biological tendencies, this may help: http://sociopathicstyle.com/continuum/psychopathic.htm

Anyways, the resemblences I see between different facets of the INFJ (seen as an archetype or a biochemistry or, as consensus seems to dictate around these MBTI boards, innate neural wiring) and these parasitic mental constitutions are all too startling.

The sociopath: a keen grasp of social mores and the intimate psychology of other people - fears and insecurities and wants.

The narcissist: repressed feelings and idea of self, living inside one's head, relying on others for validation - not constituent of INFJs as a whole, but all too common.

Sure, there may be some loose resemblence, but this is taking it to really just an irrational and extreme extrapolation.

Sociopaths are devoid of feeling. INFJs are not.

INFJs usually turn out well and become nice people who have a positive impact on humanity. Sociopaths never do.

If you are a sociopath, taking an MBTI test wouldn't even apply to you. You wouldn't even have the workings of personality as people normally use and define "personality" applying to regular people without such a disorder. NPD is somewhat similar.

Each begins with an idea, an ideal of what they want (let's say introverted intution), and realizes it through interaction with other people (extroverted feeling). Does a corrupted secondary function, in this case, automatically render an INFJ a malicious type?

No, because that's how everyone ever develops.

Or am I splicing archetypes to the point of absurdity?

Yes.

Intution compels me to believe that any MBTI (assuming we regard them as fixed and innate) can combine with any personality disorder, but certainly trends do exist.

Have you found any trends that suggest INFJness is tied with these disorders that have come from research and analysis?

 

[Majesty]

INFJ's are generally very empathetic, whereas the defining feature of sociopaths and narcisists is a lack of empathy, so your theory falls flat

Actually this is not true, any type can be or not be empathetic and it has absolutely nothing to do with being an INFJ. They might express it more or in a more intense way than some others, but in no way INFJs are more "generally very empathetic" than other types.

I could see a psycho/sociopathic INFJ very well. That INFJ has an ideology, a "way of seeing the world" that is twisted, and is convinced he is right, thus killing/torturing/etc. people with no remorse whatsoever.

 

[Paladin-X]

My question is: do narcissism and sociopathy just happen to overlap with aspects of the INFJs constitution, or are the two innately connected?

They just happen to overlap.

 

[muir]

Actually, if we take empathy in its broadest definition as "the cognizance of emotion in others", you could easily say that sociopaths have abundant natural empathy - insofar as they understand emotion.
What they lack is sympathy, and I can't even make an honest assumption about whether INFJs necessarily have natural sympathy.

Sociopathy and narcissism are defined by a lack of emotional empathy

What you are talking about is cognitive empathy

I think you are going to have a hard time trying to argue that a personality type commonly associated with humane causes is lacking in emotional empathy

So the theory falls flat

 

[muir]

Actually this is not true, any type can be or not be empathetic and it has absolutely nothing to do with being an INFJ. They might express it more or in a more intense way than some others, but in no way INFJs are more "generally very empathetic" than other types.

I could see a psycho/sociopathic INFJ very well. That INFJ has an ideology, a "way of seeing the world" that is twisted, and is convinced he is right, thus killing/torturing/etc. people with no remorse whatsoever.

No you're wrong, just because you wish it doesn't make it so

Scientists have analysed the personality types of risk takers and they have found them to commonly be made up of certain traits

One of the common traits in risk takers is extroversion

INFJ's are commonly associated with humane causes and that implies the presence of emotional empathy

I also disagree with you about INFJ's not being very empathetic, they're well known for knowing things about other people intuitively even without knowing much about them

 

[barbad0s]

Scientists have analysed the personality types of risk takers and they have found them to commonly be made up of certain traits

One of the common traits in risk takers is extroversion

I defend INFJs for once

and this is the thanks I get muir

THIS!!!!!

Anyway, I'm honestly wondering why this was supposed to be relevant. What does risk taking have to do with anything here?

 

[SealHammer]

No you're wrong, just because you wish it doesn't make it so

Scientists have analysed the personality types of risk takers and they have found them to commonly be made up of certain traits

One of the common traits in risk takers is extroversion

INFJ's are commonly associated with humane causes and that implies the presence of emotional empathy

I also disagree with you about INFJ's not being very empathetic, they're well known for knowing things about other people intuitively even without knowing much about them

But she's right. MBTI examines types at their ideal, the best they can be; you'll realize there's no type that is listed as having tendencies towards psychopathy or, honestly, any other mental disorder, either in Keirsey's Temperaments or Myers-Briggs. If you take an INFJ's or any type's archetypical behaviors and redirect them, you could probably make as good a mirror of good-evil behaviors as can be approximated in a world of gray tendencies.

For instance, I'm sure Hitler thought he was doing the right thing when he decided to murder everyone who disagreed with him. He thought he was making Germany a stronger state by removing dissidents. The same with lower-level Catholic missionaries to Mexico and Central America back in the late 15th century - even though they were destroying the native cultures they encountered, they honestly believed that subjugating an entire people to religious rule was good and would benefit everyone equally.

 

[phoenix]

On research, all of the disorders in the so-called "sociopathic spectrum" (encompassing narcissism, sociopathy, borderline personality) are grounded in a weak sense of self. (INFJs are considered to be among the most impressionable or chameleonic of the types.) A false identity is projected into the world that devours each object it encounters, failing to recognize the fundamental distinction between self and others, and others are subliminally scripted as actors in the grand play of self, all merely metaphors for the playwright's fundamental needs, wishes, desires. The more perceptive audience members realize the act, the opaqueness of costume - but to the writer of the play, it is a tragedy, and every line contains the utmost passion, the utmost truth.

Until the writer gets bored. Then he writes a new play, enlists new actors. They aren't good enough, he says - his bountiful imagination can only properly be fulfilled with the most talented of performers.

The parts are so carefully crafted for each character that each transcends the petty role of rhyme regurgitator to fill the lush curves beneath the damsel's dress, or whatever costume is fitted around the elysian flesh. The critics rejoice. Never have the whispering footsteps, the viola's murmurs, the lovely lilting of the chambermaid's voices been so consonant.

...

Sociopathic behaviors certainly contain this variety of premeditation, but also an element of risk, carelessness, capriciousness. This is where trying to conjoin them to an MBTI type, or types, becomes difficult; perhaps as niffer said, these people are truly typeless. They've broken the human mold, rejected it, and MBTI/Jung's models are founded on normal psychology. In being impressionable, in taking an image to represent who they are, they avoid journeying through the innate mechanisms of the core - quite any imaginable archetype becomes true, regardless of its effects on the rest of society. People are, in essence, interdependent; the double helixes of our genome, even, direct which staircases we are able to ascend; our childhood Barbie dramas our conception of workplace power dynamics and dating ritual. There's a reason history repeats itself - it could be no other way. The revolutionies, for that reason, tend to fail.

On a more immediate note, I'm unsure why INFJs are so deeply connected with the archetype of the empath, the psychic - it seems more a stereotype based on the colloquial conception that personalilty is informed by the top two functions, in their most rudimentary forms. Going by the Jungian model (though I hate to open a can of worms, to use a cliche of my own), an INFJ's primary function of introverted intution assembles frameworks from perceptual information it has gathered - senses, graphs, conversations, whatever, utilizing imagination to connect the dots and form a cohesive understanding. Extraverted feeling, function number two, interacts with the values of the family, the nation, the neighborhood, in an attempt to merge the indivdual and the larger collective, whether through activism or literature or the normal social ties. Taken together, an INFJ should want to merge their vision/conception of the world with its physical reality, uniting imagination and social action.

There is, however, nothing inherently empathetic about this process - no emotion is required. INFJs tend to be 'good' and 'caring' and 'beautiful', for a reason I haven't yet discerned (perhaps it's type superiority combined with the relativism of value?), but any INFJ with impurities within will incorporate those into the values they add to the world. Yes, we're all flawed, but the truly 'evil' ones (does a bad will exist?) will contribute evil. And believe they're correct and justified in doing so.

 

[muir]

I defend INFJs for once

and this is the thanks I get muir

THIS!!!!!

Anyway, I'm honestly wondering why this was supposed to be relevant. What does risk taking have to do with anything here?

Lol

I'm not saying all extroverts are risk takers!

It just seems to me that a lot of non INFJ's come to this forum and try to pin all sorts of nasty shit on INFJ's

Words like 'sociopathy' and 'narcissism' are being thrown around in this thread like confetti!

One of the traits of sociopathy is risk taking.

There was a great programme on the BBC, which i've posted a link to on this forum before which went into high powered work places for example the financial industry and looked at the traits of the people at the top

Risk taking is not necessarily a good trait in some areas for example banking! (see current economic crisis for an example of why there needs to be checks and balances to keep the behaviour of risk takers i check)

Sociopaths have very sharp elbows ie they fight and claw their way into positions of power; they also lie and cheat without remorse. They are also risk takers.

As i said one of the traits identified on the programme that is most commonly associated with risk taking (a sociopathic trait) is extroversion, so what i'm saying is if someone wants to correlate personality types with sociopathy they would probably be best to start with extroverted types.

I think the threadstarter is barking up the wrong tree

 

[muir]

But she's right. MBTI examines types at their ideal, the best they can be; you'll realize there's no type that is listed as having tendencies towards psychopathy or, honestly, any other mental disorder, either in Keirsey's Temperaments or Myers-Briggs. If you take an INFJ's or any type's archetypical behaviors and redirect them, you could probably make as good a mirror of good-evil behaviors as can be approximated in a world of gray tendencies.

For instance, I'm sure Hitler thought he was doing the right thing when he decided to murder everyone who disagreed with him. He thought he was making Germany a stronger state by removing dissidents.

No Hitler wasn't acting alone. He was merely a figurehead of a movement but he makes an easy target for people to point at

He was part of an esoteric agenda largely influenced by Ariosophy, the well spring of which was templarism

If a person gets to that level of pathology then personality types no longer apply; they are quite simply something else

The same with lower-level Catholic missionaries to Mexico and Central America back in the late 15th century - even though they were destroying the native cultures they encountered, they honestly believed that subjugating an entire people to religious rule was good and would benefit everyone equally.

No i don't agree with this. I would say that the catholic church and in particular their more militant wing the jesuits, which are derived from templarism, promote people who exhibit sociopathic traits

I don't think they thought they were acting for the greater good, they are not that delusional in that sense (they know what they are doing); they were trying to advance their influence as an order and the sociopathic individuals within that order were trying to advance their own influence within that order

If you want to understand why there is widespread child abuse within the catholic church you only need to understand what i'm saying above

I found the following ideas on the INTJ forum (by search engine) which show the negative end of the spectrum to personality types. NF's seem to become obsessed with asthetics and become more self involved rather than looking outwards which is not really the kind of behaviours exhibited by highly motivated sociopaths....you're NT's on the other hand......:

Rational (NT types) => Anesthetic
Guardian (SJ types) => Depressive
Artisan (SP types) => Hypomanic
Idealist (NF types) => Hyperesthetic

Here are the brief descriptions of each:

Anesthetic (pathological NT): The Anesthetic Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in power; and from fearing, and being distressed by, weakness. Anesthetic Cutting, active coldness Passive insensitivity Canalization of interest into well-defined autistic directions Indifference, or unshakable equilibrium Indolent instability or active caprice Tenacity: steely energy, stubborn wilfulness, pedantry, fanaticism, logical systematism in thought and action Depressive (pathological SJ): The Depressive Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in belonging; and from fearing, and being distressed by, not belonging. Depressive Gloomy, incapable of fun, complaining Humorless Skeptical, pessimistic, and given to brooding Guilt-prone, low self-esteem, and preoccupied with inadequacy or failure Introverted with restricted social life Sluggish, living a life out of action Few interests, but which, nonetheless, can be pursued with relative constancy Passive Reliable, dependable, and devoted Habitual long sleeper (more than 10 hours a night) Hypomanic (pathological SP): The Hypomanic Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in pleasure; and from fearing, and being distressed by, pain. Hypomanic Cheerful and exuberant Articulate and jocular Overoptimistic and carefree Overconfident, self-assured, boastful, and grandiose Extroverted and people seeking High energy level, full of plans and improvident activities Versatile, with broad interests Overinvolved and meddlesome Uninhibited and stimulus seeking Habitual short sleeper (less than 6 hours a night) Hyperesthetic (pathological NF): The Hyperesthetic Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in superiority; and from fearing, and being distressed by, inferiority. Hyperesthetic Tender sensibility Sensitivity to nature and art Tact and taste in personal style Sentimental affection for certain individuals Hypersensitivity and vulnerablity with regard to the daily irritations of life Passion working in combination with 'complexes' ​

[TH="class: quote"][/TH]

 

[phoenix]

Anesthetic (pathological NT): The Anesthetic Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in power; and from fearing, and being distressed by, weakness. Hyperesthetic (pathological NF): The Hyperesthetic Personality results from desiring, needing, and delighting in superiority; and from fearing, and being distressed by, inferiority. ​

And don't the complexes in question often spring from a deep-seated sense of inferiority? Power is a means by which the deeply personal subjective can be sublimated into an externalized objective, with a discrete measure of number of people controlled, battles won. I'm not saying that all choleric desire is resultant of a more internalized emotional state, but oftentimes it is merely that: a means to an end.

 

[Faye]

INFJs are highly empathetic, and we usually sympathize with those we see suffering as well.

The is the opposite of a sociopath. A sociopath cannot empathize with others, and because empathy is a necessary prerequisite of sympathy, they cannot sympathize with others who are suffering either.

The INFJ type is the opposite of sociopathy, and for an INFJ to become a sociopath, something has to have gone very wrong because it means that the INFJ has somehow lost the main quality that makes them INFJ.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

I often see people's motivation or have the ability to feel their pain. And when pieces of their past become known I'm pretty good at piecing it all together and understanding. Rarely, with some people, I will use this understanding to help them. Sometimes it's like I'm hacking their brain. In this way INFJs are similar to sociopaths. But I feel empathy, the key is the ability to feel empathy. This is what makes us different from sociopaths.

I totally understand what you are saying though. I became fascinated with this same exact topic, even made my own thread about it. INFJs are very similar to bpd/sociopaths/narcissists. But the majority aren't.

 

[Hashy]

All I can really, or want to say about this, is that I find Narcissists and Sociopaths to be an INFJ's mortal enemy..

Kind of like Dragons and Dogs... The next time somebody suggests to me that I get a Dog as a pet, I will say I do not believe in fairies....

EDIT: Oh Dear.. Somebody already mentioned Hitler... I invoke Godwins Law upon all of yee!! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

http://www.damnlol.com/you-have-enemies-34964.html

EDIT: Oh Dear.. Edited again! Dragon, the one posting in this thread, my Dragon reference was NOT at all related to you or your nickname! Pure coincidence; I had not read as far into the thread as your posting by that time! xD