MBTI vs Jungian functions: Why you can't be both Fe/Fi | INFJ Forum

MBTI vs Jungian functions: Why you can't be both Fe/Fi

Orion

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You cant use them simultaneously, they cant support each other or help each other out. Fi is a shadow for Fe users and vice versa. Shad

The reason people think they do is because the difference between the two can be extremely hard to grasp. Plus, people dont get shadow functions. It takes time and learning to truly know the difference between Fi and Fe- I still dont understand it fully myself. But thats not an excuse to perpetuate the myth that you can use them together or experience them both the same.
 
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You cant use them simultaneously, they cant support each other or help each other out. Fi is a shadow for Fe users and vice versa. Shad

The reason people think they do is because the difference between the two can be extremely hard to grasp. Plus, people dont get shadow functions. It takes time and learning to truly know the difference between Fi and Fe- I still dont understand it fully myself. But thats not an excuse to perpetuate the myth that you can use them together or experience them both the same.

I didn't say they can be used together. My question is if you're Fe, how do you see Fe in your thinking and behavior? If you're Fi, how do you see Fi in your thought processes or evaluations?
 
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You cant use them simultaneously, they cant support each other or help each other out. Fi is a shadow for Fe users and vice versa. Shad

The reason people think they do is because the difference between the two can be extremely hard to grasp. Plus, people dont get shadow functions. It takes time and learning to truly know the difference between Fi and Fe- I still dont understand it fully myself. But thats not an excuse to perpetuate the myth that you can use them together or experience them both the same.

I'd never heard of this before joining the infj forum. It sounds like you are stating that people do not have any access to the functions beyond their top four. Is that correct? What are the sources for this perspective?

It seems very much a perspective rather than disputing of a myth, per my perusal of this Jungian cognitive function wikipedia page. For the Beebe, Berens, and Thompson models, they list each of the 8 functions and have some designation of their role in people's functioning. This seems to be in contradiction with your assertion.

In the Controversy in Attitudes section, it discusses shadow functions and describes the current theory by Beebe and Berens as considering the four functions in the opposite attitude direction as residing largely in the unconscious. This is the most support I could find for this perspective, but it was in a "controversy" section, labeled as theory, and also spoke to them being largely in the unconscious, which would indicate a belief of primarily inability to consciously control the functions, but would not exclude their influence on functioning at all.


Res, if you feel this is off-topic (I might) please let me or a moderator know, I'd be fine with this being split off.
 
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I'm...going to repost what I put in Res' thread, because I think it could be relevant here:

Well...this is where things can get complicated.

Jungian theory and using the functions is different from MBTI. MBTI will "allow" you to be on the boarder between types because it's more behavior based while Jung functions really aren't. Jungian functions talk about the pattern your mind makes when it puts together information, and that pattern becomes your personality. Jungian functions is "first this, then this, then this, then this". MBTI is "how do you feel"?

So if you're using Jungian functions, your pattern of thought has to be Ni-Fe-Ti-Se for INFJ because that's the preference order of your thoughts. It's more unconscious than conscious. And you have to go that direction, because that's how the theory says we think. We come up with the thought, we filter it emotionally, we thinking about it, and then respond - and then all together that creates the "INFJ" pattern.

But, when we start really looking into that pattern I think it's easy to become confused. It's hard to "look" at how we think, and it's easy to say, "well I *feel* this way" rather than look at the function processes. Jungian functions are really hard to pin down; but it's more of an on/off switch - you either are doing it, or you're not because their introverted function pairs and extroverted function pairs. You exhale and inhale; you extrovert and you introvert the pairs.

Anyway, that's a reeeeally simplified, pared down version of Jungian functions. I think if anyone feels on the line (which can happens) maybe it can help to think about the function pairs more; or maybe you can (try) to "catch" your first conscious thought and compare it to a cognitive function description (er...maybe!).

Good luck, though! In time it can and will make sense. It just takes time.

Beebe and Berens do discuss the shadow theory (and to be fair it is more of a theory, so everyone has something they're discussing), but Thompson (Lenore) does go more into the functions.

It's not that we can't access the other functions, it's that we don't want to. Jungian function is more of an automatic process, while MBTI is more behavior-related. The theory is that your behavior can be observed based on what your brain automatically doing.

So, it's not a new theory actually; Jung at its base deals with cognitive (thinking) functions while MBTI deals more with behavior. The recent theorists are often going more by MBTI and behavior, while a few others are going another direction with cognitive functions and a deeper understanding of Jung (Thompson).

It's more on their websites, though. If I can find the links I'll post them.
 
People want to throw around “BUT THEY ARE SHADOW FUNCTIONS..”

I don’t think people really understand what it means to be in the shadow.

Heck, our tertiary and inferior function are in our unconscious.

Hell, most people don’t know what that even means either.

:(
 
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Halt there [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION]. Intuition functions are really the only true unconscious functions. Tertiary and inferior functions are very conscious (if not Ni or Ne), they are just not used to the degree of the first two functions.

My problem with Fi is that the description is crappy. "Fi users make decisions on what they value internally". Well, everyone does that every day.

On the subject of shadow functions, we all are capable of exhibiting any CF but the shadow functions pop up in times of stress and in weird situations. I guess with my confusion about questioning whether or not I am an INFP based on the reason that I feel I use Fi quite a bit could stem from the fact that I am stressed and my shadow functions are popping up in my identity crisis I am having.

Now that I have done some more searching, I know that I use Ni and Fe the most. I think the shadow model helps explain my personal infj/p dilemma.

No.

You need to start from the source and work upwards.
 
No.

You need to start from the source and work upwards.

The source? [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION]

The source of what? Ni is primarily unconcious as a function. Ti and Se are conscious functions. No matter where they are in the ranking of use, that should be true. Just because you are more aware of Ni than Se does not mean that Se is unconscious.
 
The source? @Limit

The source of what? Ni is primarily unconcious as a function. Ti and Se are conscious functions. No matter where they are in the ranking of use, that should be true. Just because you are more aware of Ni than Se does not mean that Se is unconscious.

No. Sensing and Intuition are irrational functions, and Feeling and Thinking are rational functions, as per Jung's definition.(the source)
 
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The source? [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION]

The source of what? Ni is primarily unconcious as a function. Ti and Se are conscious functions. No matter where they are in the ranking of use, that should be true. Just because you are more aware of Ni than Se does not mean that Se is unconscious.

The source is Analytical Psychology by Carl Jung. Go from there then work up.

You have some heavy misconceptions that I can
 
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"It's not that we can't access the other functions, it's that we don't want to"


Preach.
 
Almost every analyst agrees that we have all cognitive functions.They don't all agree on their role though. Terms usually applied to this are "shadow", "subconscious" vs "conscious". Often, they are ill defined or random, and sometimes the authors don't really bother to define them. I suppose they use them because they make some intuitive sense to them. Very often the definition varies by author.

The most common view is that the first four functions are "conscious" and the rest are "unconscious" or "subconscious". Which apparently means that they exert some sort of invisible influence of the top functions without the individual's ability to be aware of this in a "normal" state of consciousness. I'm not at all clear on this.

Naomi Quenk's book reflects my understanding the best.

The Inferior Function and the Shadow Many people confuse the inferior
function with the concept of the shadow and use the terms interchangeably
(Quenk, 1982). In Jung’s system, the shadow is an archetype,
one of our innate modes of responding to important universal psychological
realities. The shadow includes those things people are unable or unwilling
to acknowledge about themselves, such as undesirable character
traits, weaknesses, fears, and lapses in morality, or desirable qualities such
as intelligence, attractiveness, and leadership skills. The shadow is a key
component of a person’s personal unconscious, a layer of the psyche
that is more accessible than its much larger counterpart, the collective
unconscious.

Although they are not the same concept, the relationship between the inferior function and the shadow is very important. In effect, one’s
shadow supplies the personal contents that appear when the inferior function
is constellated, or evoked. Metaphorically, the inferior function is
the skeletal form and the shadow is the flesh that gives it substance and
life.
As Jung said in a quotation cited earlier, the inferior function serves as
a doorway through which the contents of both the personal and collective
unconscious may enter.
Quoted from "Was that really me? How the inferior function brings out our hidden personality" by Naomi Quenk.

There's something else though, that could explain this phenomena. Functional Differentiation.

Differentiation. The separation of parts from a whole, necessary for conscious access to
the psychological functions.
So long as a function is still so fused with one or more other functions-thinking with
feeling, feeling with sensation, etc.-that it is unable to operate on its own, it is in an
archaic condition, i.e., not differentiated, not separated from the whole as a special part
and existing by itself. Undifferentiated thinking is incapable of thinking apart from other
functions; it is continually mixed up with sensations, feelings, intuitions, just as
undifferentiated feeling is mixed up with sensations and fantasies.["Definitions," CW 6, par.
705.]

Quoted from "Jung's Lexicon" by Daryl Sharp.



As for the Fe and Fi. Functions basically work like complements often, and not just the expected pairs.

The reasoning behind why don't have Fe and Fi is that you basically don't need them both, as that would introduce unnecessary redundancy and friction into your cognitive configuration. The four conscious functions are quite enough, combined to fulfill the purpose of the rest of the functions.

I'm going to use the definitions my discussion partner wrote after a lot of brainstorming together. (this is not begginers stuff)

Fi orients toward a process that takes an affective reductionist approach to problem solving, creating categories only to easier break down the affective values that are being dismantled into smaller categories; it orients inwards from the manifestations to the root of the concept. Hence „ABCD‟ cannot be fully understood without identifying the principles of each „AB‟ and „CD‟ before further reducing it down to „A‟, „B‟, „C‟, and „D‟ in isolation then identifying the root (A) from which all others are derived and assessing the principles of each through a deductive process and summating them into an understanding of the overall concept.
Te, as a function, orients towards a process involved in expanding cognitive categories and sub-categories to create a framework developed through the method of deduction. It works on the principle of cognitive value and cognitive understanding being extracted or added from and to the context of the selected concept or observation; it orients outwards from the root to the manifestations. Hence idea „A‟ is worthless to any cognitively expounded foundation without forming the framework between „A‟, „B‟, „C‟, and „D‟, (AB, CD, ABCD, etc) connected according to a related pattern or function and forming related categories.
Fe, as a function, orients towards a process involved in expanding affective categories and sub-categories to create a framework developed through the method of deduction. It works on the principle of affective value and affective understanding being extracted or added from and to the context of the selected concept or observation; it orients outwards from the root to the manifestations. Hence idea „A‟ is worthless to any affectively expounded foundation without forming the framework between „A‟, „B‟, „C‟, and „D‟, (AB, CD, ABCD, etc) connected according to a related pattern or function and forming related categories
So, you see, when you have a INFP that thinks they are using Fe, what they are actually doing, is taking their Fi, and applying the derived affective principles; interjecting them into their Te understanding of the broader context. Because Fi is the dominant function, everything else is invariably colored by it, and Te, especially, being the weakest link in the hierarchy, is going to be very colored by the Fi influence. Fi is the lens all other functions go through.
It's a form of functional interaction, not using an entirely different function. It just looks a hell of a lot like a different function, especially because it is difficult to recognize the fact you're using a thinking function in conjunction with Fi, not another feeling function (Fe), but it happens because Fi, as an affective component and the king of the hierarchy itself basically predetermines a bias in interpretation on its own terms.
 
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Why are there only 16 personality types when there are 40,320 different ways in which the 8 functions could be ordered? or maybe I'm looking at the math wrong.
 
Why are there only 16 personality types when there are 40,320 different ways in which the 8 functions could be ordered? or maybe I'm looking at the math wrong.

Because the way they have to be tied together.


Xi and Xe, or Juding and perceiving.

Though frankly an Ne Te Ni Fe type would be like, amazing. imo. For the four seconds of their existence, before their brain melts.

Like, you can't have an Fe Ti person, because they have no way to gain information, they would just be really, really, really, judgemental. Haha, thats kind of funny now that I envision that.
 
Because the way they have to be tied together.


Xi and Xe, or Juding and perceiving.

Though frankly an Ne Te Ni Fe type would be like, amazing. imo. For the four seconds of their existence, before their brain melts.

Like, you can't have an Fe Ti person, because they have no way to gain information, they would just be really, really, really, judgemental. Haha, thats kind of funny now that I envision that.

Hmmm, interesting that seems as if it does eliminate a fair amount however it doesn't exactly pare it down to 16.
 
Hmmm, interesting that seems as if it does eliminate a fair amount however it doesn't exactly pare it down to 16.

Because it's not just the Xi and Xe that alternates but also Perceiving and Judging functions.

J i/e P i/e P i/e J i/e marks 8 possibilities

P i/e J i/e J i/e P i/e marks 8 possibilities

8 + 8 = 16
 
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The functions are preferences (inclinations), to "prefer both" is an oxymoron.
 
Hmmm, interesting that seems as if it does eliminate a fair amount however it doesn't exactly pare it down to 16.

It's true, but there are 8 dominant functions, so theres no way a Ni dom and a Si dom are the same type. For a Ni dom you could be either Fe/Ti or Te/Fi, so 8*2 = 16

But Ni Ti Fe Se and Ni Fe Ti Se are both INFJ.

(I couldnt find a better way to say it lol)
 
disclaimer: I have not read any of this thread
sure i can't use both at the same time, but I use them both, and i do it a lot. my functions are like ni > fe > fi > se.
 
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I'm not convinced of any of this, I'm sure which functions you use is largely situational.