Masculinity and Femininity | INFJ Forum

Masculinity and Femininity

slant

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I've previewed a few books that talked about males being forced into 'female' roles by society. I didn't end up reading them because they almost made me puke in disgust that a person could write such a biased, gender-role based book. A lot of my research into the oppositions of homosexuality claim that many gay men have 'underdeveloped' masculinity. I've spend a great deal of time trying to sort out why I think that Masculinity and Femininity are stupid concepts, and I think I finally have figured it out.

It's all based on sexuality. If that's taken out of the equation, there is no Masculinity and Femininity. These things were created by taking the biological makeup and reproduction organs associated with each gender and blowing the up, exaggerating them, and even after all of that coating it in sugar.

Men are strong and fearless.
Women are compassionate and nurturing.

Stereotypes galore---and all based on sexuality.

What do you think about Masculinity and Femininity?
 
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I think what you have expressed is the essential reductionist perspective of it, and I agree - Masculinity and Femininity are based on sexual expression, at least as it concerns pubescent dimophism in the human being.

Masculinity and Femininity can be considered as the relative expression of androgens and estrogens, collectively known as gonadotrophins, in the human being, and how these hormones influence developmental aspects on many axes.

There are, of course, many more perspectives. While ideas of Masculinity and Femininity are just that - ideals that exist as a construct in thought, and are expressed via values - my sense is they are not wholly abstracted - they are built upon a common experience of physicality in the world.


cheers,
Ian
 
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I hate stereotyping as it is, let alone GENDER stereotyping!

I don't think that a man can act too feminine nor a woman too masculine. I don't believe in "gender roles" either. I think we are doing a great disservice to ourselves as a society by assigning gender roles and negatively judging those who chose a lifestyle or role that goes against what is considered social norms.

I've known plenty of men who would make FAR better stay at home parents than many women I've met. I have also met many women who have far better qualities (at things that would be considered more "masculine") like sports and auto mechanics.

In all situations I think we should be able to express our true feelings and behave in ways we feel appropriate and it be viewed as a HUMAN reaction. We shouldn't have to worry about HOW we should respond based on the assigned and accepted male or female roles.

Ok, that's my little rant. I'm done now. :) (I hope it made sense.)
 
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Masculinity and feminity both do exsist. And there will always be gender roles. Everyone has aspects of each role to themselves though so there is no set "you act male / you act female". So long as you stick to what you feel confortable with, there is no problem. No one should feel obligated to fit to a mold because of what socieity or people are telling them.
 
REBEL REBEL REBEL!!!!
 
What about when woman say "all men are the same", which really means "all men are players". I hate it when they say it!!

I protest.
 
It's all based on sexuality. If that's taken out of the equation, there is no Masculinity and Femininity. These things were created by taking the biological makeup and reproduction organs associated with each gender and blowing the up, exaggerating them, and even after all of that coating it in sugar.

Exactly the same conclusion I recently came myself to. I can only add that in humans it's also a psychological construct. That means inner sexuality is expressed through mental processes. A lot of them are unconscious.

I'm so sick of all that "women/men are from venus/mars, whatever" nonsense. All that it accomplishes is placing an unnecessary guilt on people of acting too masculine or too feminine when all they want is to express their sexuality.

I am a bit puzzled by transsexual people though - how can they be so sure that they belong to another gender? Are they being deceived by their minds and social conditioning? An interesting mini-survey reveals that more than half of transgendered people fall into INFJ and ENFJ types (which are very similar by their underlying processes). Considering that these two types make only 6% of population, it's a very serious deviation.

BTW did you know that every human has a full genetic code of both genders. The famous Y chromosome acts only as an activator switch, but does not contain the boy parts :) We are the same species, not aliens from some distant planets.
 
An interesting mini-survey reveals that more than half of transgendered people fall into INFJ and ENFJ types (which are very similar by their underlying processes). Considering that these two types make only 6% of population, it's a very serious deviation.

BTW did you know that every human has a full genetic code of both genders. The famous Y chromosome acts only as an activator switch, but does not contain the boy parts :) We are the same species, not aliens from some distant planets.

wow that's interesting, thanks for sharing :)
 
What about when woman say "all men are the same", which really means "all men are players". I hate it when they say it!!

I protest.
As do I. Well said!

As far as masculinity and femininity are concerned, people should and I think mostly do just have as much of either as in natural to them. What I can't believe is 'natural' though is how overtly camp men act. I mean they MUST be acting or at least exaggerating! I can't imagine someone keeping up the role of flaccid wrist flicks, hands on hips stances and excessive pouting all their lives. THAT is an example of masculinity/femininity being forced by society, which I don't agree with.
 
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What about when woman say "all men are the same", which really means "all men are players". I hate it when they say it!!

I protest.

I hate it too. It makes me want to slap them like a bitch for talking like a bitch.

I'm neither Masculine or Feminine. I'm a cuddlywuddly, machete wielding, teddy hugging, vicious softy who acts passive and wears a smile.
 
Just curious, what books did you preview? It's pretty old school, but if you haven't read The Second Sex by Simone de Beauvoir, I recommend it.
 
Hmm, I don't know the title. I barely previewed it when at a bookstore. It was talking about Boys and how when they go to school they are forced into female roles of being quiet and obedience instead of being sporty and throwing things, etc, the traits that apparently make a man masculine.
 
Masculinity and feminity both do exsist. And there will always be gender roles. Everyone has aspects of each role to themselves though so there is no set "you act male / you act female". So long as you stick to what you feel confortable with, there is no problem. No one should feel obligated to fit to a mold because of what socieity or people are telling them.

This.
 
Feminity and masculinity both exist, and they should -- however, people shouldn't be forced into those roles. I know straight females that are very masculine; I know gay males that are also masculine. And I know the flips that are that way. I know people who are neither or both. I myself enjoy flipping over and trying out each role :)
 
But without all of these useful stereotypes we wouldn't be able to group people, judge them before getting to know them, and invalidate their individual thoughts and feelings. :(

Oh, and if you like irony like me, look at all of the "tough" men who are so manly and strong yet are terrified by their own emotions. :)

I also dislike the idea of certain objects being feminine or masculine. Like I hear all the time from people, "You might not like this movie because it's girly," or something like that. But I have to admit it's kind of funny to hear how almost every boy in my school dislikes Twilight yet they've never even read it. I'll admit, it's not the best written book, but it's not as bad as everyone makes it out to be.

People try to act their gender but to me they're not very good at it. I'd give them tips but I don't like gender stereotypes. Hopefully this is just a sign that they're slowly dying after a few thousand years of political support.
 
You all do relize that this is no where near a new idea. Even Neanderthal female remains have baskets, babies, and other things that fall into the female "baby-taker-carer/gatherer/stays-at-home" area while most of the males died with crushed bones, spear heads in them/in pocession, and other violent deaths from hunting and fighting other tribes.

Are you going to tell me that socity pushed the roles onto the Neanderthals, or maybe it was just natural?

Sure, we've evloved past "needing" the gender roles to be as the sterotype, but that doesn't stop the natural tendancy for it to happen.

I will agree that people shouldn't be "forced" in the roles, but tell me how we are going to fight millions of years of evolution and the physical parts of the body (larger muscles, better thinking on one subject, higher aggression responce for men/maternal instincs, boobs for feeding the kids[don't want to argue that one], better at thinking of multipule things, less agressive [can tend to more civil, everyday chores] for females).

So I say this, It's not going to change unless there is a GIANT social upheveal that changes EVERYTHING from how it is in modern sociaty.
 
You all do relize that this is no where near a new idea. Even Neanderthal female remains have baskets, babies, and other things that fall into the female "baby-taker-carer/gatherer/stays-at-home" area while most of the males died with crushed bones, spear heads in them/in pocession, and other violent deaths from hunting and fighting other tribes.

Are you going to tell me that socity pushed the roles onto the Neanderthals, or maybe it was just natural?

Sure, we've evloved past "needing" the gender roles to be as the sterotype, but that doesn't stop the natural tendancy for it to happen.

I will agree that people shouldn't be "forced" in the roles, but tell me how we are going to fight millions of years of evolution and the physical parts of the body (larger muscles, better thinking on one subject, higher aggression responce for men/maternal instincs, boobs for feeding the kids[don't want to argue that one], better at thinking of multipule things, less agressive [can tend to more civil, everyday chores] for females).

So I say this, It's not going to change unless there is a GIANT social upheveal that changes EVERYTHING from how it is in modern sociaty.
We've evolved enough to talk, right? I mean look at human society and compare it to... fly society. Or wolf society. Humans aren't really "animals" in the sense that they rely solely on instinct. Also, I've had a theory about the origin of gender roles in paleolithic times. I think that... well, there wasn't exactly marriage or schools back then. A male probably wasn't sure if a child was theirs or not, and they might have not even consciously known how reproduction works. It would be obvious to a female though who was their child, of course, so they would naturally want to take care of it. I think that males might have become more "community oriented" because they weren't so sure of their family and which children might have been theirs. It's difficult to remember what you were doing exactly 9 months ago, and back then it wasn't as "civilized" as it is today. It's just a theory of mine. I guess it doesn't really matter much in modern times, now that humans can actually make the choice on how they want to live.
 
We've evolved enough to talk, right? I mean look at human society and compare it to... fly society. Or wolf society. Humans aren't really "animals" in the sense that they rely solely on instinct. Also, I've had a theory about the origin of gender roles in paleolithic times. I think that... well, there wasn't exactly marriage or schools back then. A male probably wasn't sure if a child was theirs or not, and they might have not even consciously known how reproduction works. It would be obvious to a female though who was their child, of course, so they would naturally want to take care of it. I think that males might have become more "community oriented" because they weren't so sure of their family and which children might have been theirs. It's difficult to remember what you were doing exactly 9 months ago, and back then it wasn't as "civilized" as it is today. It's just a theory of mine. I guess it doesn't really matter much in modern times, now that humans can actually make the choice on how they want to live.


Go tell some ageing, draft dodging hippy that war is the real solution to everything and see how far you get.

To change how society, you would need ALOT of time, and a GIANT effort. I do not see that happening...ever. (just being a realist)
 
I should try arguing the point with an ageing hippy that genocide is what the world needs.