Manipulation.

[WellNoWonder]

I had to start a separate thread and plus no one really talked about it when I asked so I'm asking again because I really want to know.

I have been in deep, deep thought about this, about who I am allowing to manipulate me.

Do we all let people manipulate us to some degree?

Are we immediately aware of it, but then choose how we will deal with it?

When do we know when it is dangerous, or on the other side, somewhat to our advantage?

Do us INFJs allow ourelves to be manipulated?

And if we are being manipulated, are we emotionally gullible or are there other darker reasons?

 

[Ria]

I have felt like this too, alot.

Sometimes I wonder if it is because we can always see the big picture and are working towards harmony with everything in our lives, that we end up bending over backwards and twisting ourselves in ways that accomodate others, just to keep the peace.

Sometimes too, we want to see others so happy, and they actually take that for granted about us, and often times, are completely unaware of this gift that we give.

In part, I think we allow it because of our deep love for others, and it's hard for us to stand up and say what we really think and feel...

The dark place for me, is a place of where I get mad at myself for this, and build up resentment to the other person (or people), and I just implode it.

There are deeper manipulations that occur, like with those who know what they're doing, and we stand back and become more stand-offish. This causes the vibe of the other to suspect our knowing, then keeping the blanket held high and using other manipulative techniques that have force our intuitive radar to go on overdrive. This can become confusing and draining, because it conflicts with our idealistic nature of wanting to believe the best in others...

This is what it means to me...

 

[IndigoSensor]

Not all forms of manipulation will be picked up on. I usually sense most, but not all. I do not like being maniuplated. However, I will allow it at times. The times that I do are often due to a small part of me wanting it or needing it. I tend to rigid with most things, and will need alot of coaxing to change. Someone manipulating me under the table will sometimes get me over the hurdle that I must get over. In these cases, people do this with good intention, and after some time, I am aware of what they are doing.

I am very sneaky, and I am not going to lie, it is easy for me to manipulate people, I do it all the time. I do it however with very good intentions. I never take advantage of this abillity, nor would I ever do so. Simple fact is I would never want anyone to do maniuplate me with malice intent. It is unfair and cruel to do so.

I have been maniuplated by people many many times in my past, and it is part of the reason that I pick up on it readily, and why I have little tollerance for it. If I don't agree with the motives of the person thing to manipulate me, I will instantly go against it and prevent it. The only time I have a hard time preventing it is when I am in social situations where doing so would cause dissaray of some kind (I don't like to rock the boat).

 

[NeverAmI]

It is hard to distinguish between influence and manipulation. I suppose manipulation would include the other party using specific leverage in a deceptive manner to try to influence you.

Some people use specific leverage out in full view, touching on my weaknesses or soft spots which borders on manipulation. Normally it doesn't bother me because they don't try to hide what they are doing.

If someone creates an elaborate story or scenario that is obviously directed at a soft spot of mine, I may become more suspicious and distance myself. I have been wrong with people's intentions before though, or else they quickly backed out of it and changed their plan. One of my exes was VERY good at this, she deserves some sort of an award for passive aggressiveness.

The passive aggressiveness is definitely the worst because they inch ever closer to their true intentions, but any time you call them out there is never enough proof. Then they push again, slowly, tweaking your emotions, getting inside of your head, putting on a completely different facade on the exterior. You start questioning yourself, wondering if you have been wrong this whole time.

Once upon a time I was incredibly easy to manipulate, all you needed was confidence/conviction on the exterior. I still struggle with this, but I am much more skeptical of peoples' intentions, to the point where it is unhealthy.

 

[anica]

Manipulation

I think I'm pretty easily manipulated in certain areas, which probably means I'n manipulative as well. There are always two sides to a coin. I need to give this more thought and write more later.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

I had to start a separate thread and plus no one really talked about it when I asked so I'm asking again because I really want to know.

I have been in deep, deep thought about this, about who I am allowing to manipulate me.

Do we all let people manipulate us to some degree?

Are we immediately aware of it, but then choose how we will deal with it?

When do we know when it is dangerous, or on the other side, somewhat to our advantage?

Do us INFJs allow ourelves to be manipulated?

And if we are being manipulated, are we emotionally gullible or are there other darker reasons?

I manipulate people to the point of I know what they are thinking (or at least think I do) and it unfolds in the way I'd expect...so far.

I like knowing what people intend/want/are thinking. I'm rarely manipulated (or at least I don't think I am). Usually I'm the manipulator..but I'm a good person and don't use it for evil.

Though I'm wrong as much as I'm right I'm sure. I'll just remain in my bubble of fake wisdom haha

 

[WellNoWonder]

In part, I think we allow it because of our deep love for others, and it's hard for us to stand up and say what we really think and feel...
Yep.

The dark place for me, is a place of where I get mad at myself for this, and build up resentment to the other person (or people), and I just implode it.
Oh yes. Shadow.

There are deeper manipulations that occur, like with those who know what they're doing, and we stand back and become more stand-offish. This causes the vibe of the other to suspect our knowing, then keeping the blanket held high and using other manipulative techniques that have force our intuitive radar to go on overdrive. This can become confusing and draining, because it conflicts with our idealistic nature of wanting to believe the best in others...
I was just discussing this last night. I think perhaps a lot of the reason why I am a loner is because I have a hard time interacting with people I don't trust. And that's most people. And really by trust, I mean trusting the person to be him/herself, instead of pretending to be who I could want them to be.

This is where I admit I can be manipulative myself, and am very careful about it.

Someone manipulating me under the table will sometimes get me over the hurdle that I must get over. In these cases, people do this with good intention, and after some time, I am aware of what they are doing.

I like this. I sometimes need for this to be done.

I am very sneaky, and I am not going to lie, it is easy for me to manipulate people, I do it all the time. I do it however with very good intentions. I never take advantage of this abillity, nor would I ever do so. Simple fact is I would never want anyone to do maniuplate me with malice intent. It is unfair and cruel to do so.
Yep, the introverted intuition. We spend so much time reading people, we seem to know exactly what reactions we can get out of them by tweaking interactions with them.

I have been maniuplated by people many many times in my past, and it is part of the reason that I pick up on it readily, and why I have little tollerance for it.

I really try to be aware of this. I get pissed at myself when I miss something.

The passive aggressiveness is definitely the worst because they inch ever closer to their true intentions, but any time you call them out there is never enough proof. Then they push again, slowly, tweaking your emotions, getting inside of your head, putting on a completely different facade on the exterior. You start questioning yourself, wondering if you have been wrong this whole time.

Once upon a time I was incredibly easy to manipulate, all you needed was confidence/conviction on the exterior. I still struggle with this, but I am much more skeptical of peoples' intentions, to the point where it is unhealthy.

True for me also. Passive aggressive people really get me on this. And I spend more time watching them than talking to them, and they become suspicious of me eventually.
I'm generally passive, with spurts of blue fire. But people who are calm ALL of the time really confuse me anyway. I am very suspicious of this. Unless there is really a nirvana around here somewhere, and I'm just one unenlightened m-f-er.

(this thang won't let me post so random *&^(*&^)

 

[INFJesus]

It is hard to distinguish between influence and manipulation. I suppose manipulation would include the other party using specific leverage in a deceptive manner to try to influence you.

Some people use specific leverage out in full view, touching on my weaknesses or soft spots which borders on manipulation. Normally it doesn't bother me because they don't try to hide what they are doing.

If someone creates an elaborate story or scenario that is obviously directed at a soft spot of mine, I may become more suspicious and distance myself. I have been wrong with people's intentions before though, or else they quickly backed out of it and changed their plan. One of my exes was VERY good at this, she deserves some sort of an award for passive aggressiveness.

The passive aggressiveness is definitely the worst because they inch ever closer to their true intentions, but any time you call them out there is never enough proof. Then they push again, slowly, tweaking your emotions, getting inside of your head, putting on a completely different facade on the exterior. You start questioning yourself, wondering if you have been wrong this whole time.

Once upon a time I was incredibly easy to manipulate, all you needed was confidence/conviction on the exterior. I still struggle with this, but I am much more skeptical of peoples' intentions, to the point where it is unhealthy.

You just get more clever by the minute.

At what point does influence become manipulation?
How much of being manipulated is your own repsonsibilty?
How much are others aware that they are in fact, being manipulative?

I know am , I have been accused of it enough times, But I am not always aware I am being so.

I am also aware I am easily manipulated even when I am not aware it is being done to me.
I want to please people, especially those I love, and those people can have an incredible influence on me.

The unhealthy manipulator is just that, unhealthy, and it's easy to forgive them becasue they are most likely not aware they are being manipulative.

But then there are those who live to take advanatge of people, and are well ware of the weakness in others.
I am confused as to where to draw the line, with others and myself.

Having been in a relationship recently with another INFx where we both manipulated the hell out of each other .. this is something I came here for to hope to understand

Awesome thread!!

 

[Gaze]

Problem with manipulators is that they continue if you don't call them on it. And even if you confront them, they will still continue. I pretty much know at this point whether or not i'm being manipulated, but i'll give someone the chance to come clean because i prefer honesty. But if they don't come clean, i may choose not to call them on it, and ignore them. But apparently, this, for them, means they can continue the manipulation. Thing is, i have anxiety issues, so even if i'm being manipulated and know it, i'd rather make some adjustment to my thinking or behavior rather than expect any changes from their end. I can't handle the stress of playing games. That way i won't hold myself responsible for the manipulation, and not expect what they are clearly unable to give, such as honesty.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

In essence, everyone manipulates.

Everyone does what is best for themselves.

Even if someone were to die for some cause, they did it for a "feeling" (for lack of a better word) that benefits them in some way, whether in feeling, or intellectual gratification which is really still "feeling".

 

[NeverAmI]

Problem with manipulators is that they continue if you don't call them on it. And even if you confront them, they will still continue. I pretty much know at this point whether or not i'm being manipulated, but i'll give someone the chance to come clean because i prefer honesty. But if they don't come clean, i may choose not to call them on it, and ignore them. But apparently, this, for them, means they can continue the manipulation. Thing is, i have anxiety issues, so even if i'm being manipulated and know it, i'd rather make some adjustment to my thinking or behavior rather than expect any changes from their end. I can't handle the stress of playing games. That way i won't hold myself responsible for the manipulation, and not expect what they are clearly unable to give, such as honesty.

Very well said, I would also be tempted to change soemthing about myself to accomodate the dishonesty. Instead I walk away because indeed many do not stop.

 

[NeverAmI]

Everyone does what is best for themselves.

I disagree completely. At times people do what is best for themselves. At times people do what is best for others.

By definition, a sociopath does what is best for themselves at all times.

I didn't have anything to gain by picking up some money dropped and giving it back to a woman, or not stealing the money from a lost wallet. Stopping at a stranded car to help out a person I will never see again doesn't make my life better. I have been in tough spots like that before, and it sucks. It is realizing that you can help someone else avoid feeling that same helplessness.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

I disagree completely. At times people do what is best for themselves. At times people do what is best for others.

By definition, a sociopath does what is best for themselves at all times.

I didn't have anything to gain by picking up some money dropped and giving it back to a woman, or not stealing the money from a lost wallet. Stopping at a stranded car to help out a person I will never see again doesn't make my life better. I have been in tough spots like that before, and it sucks. It is realizing that you can help someone else from feeling that same helplessness.

It makes you feel good. You did it for yourself.

That's not to say it's not beneficial to someone else, but everything you do is based on your own necessity to do what you need to do, for yourself.

 

[TheLastMohican]

I disagree completely. At times people do what is best for themselves. At times people do what is best for others.

How are you defining "best"? If you embezzle money to pay off loan sharks, but then feel guilty about it for the rest of your life, was that "best"?

 

[arbygil]

Lol. These threads always seem to come up at th eright time.

I just finished a really, *really* bad negotiation with someone regarding the new place I'm moving into. The original tenant kept putting off many things and I trusted her, expecting she'd finish things up before my targeted move-in date (this week). Well, when I finally had the chance to do a walk through of her house, she hadn't started anything! We'd spoken for more than seven weeks and the week before I was supposed to move in she hadn't done anything.

Lord. Things got worse and worse as I confronted the tenant about it, and I finally spoke to the landlord (her sister). The tenant then called me and exploded on me over the phone and I ended up hanging up on her. But yeah, I'm too nice. I give people the benefit of the doubt for way longer than I should even though I have a feeling about how things are going. I just want to expect the best, and I keep expecting the other person will respect me enough to keep me in the loop on things.

Man. Manipulation is a huge headache, whether it's subtle or overt.

What I REALLY hate, though, is that kind of passive aggressive manipulation that people have - that whole, "oh, poah me is butthurt and you're the meanie." You want to get me angry in a hurry? Go ahead. Do that. I lose *all* respect for that kind of nonsense and I turn into Godzilla from zero to sixty.

 

[NeverAmI]

It makes you feel good. You did it for yourself.

There is scientific proof that there is emotion from getting a thank you, there is emotion from any sort of social interaction.

But...

The gain of doing something like that is so absolutely out of proportion to the amount of work it takes to achieve it in some instances that it completely dismisses the idea that I do it for that feeling. I certainly don't get excited when I see someone stranded, usually I get pissed and I moan under my breath.

This is the altruism debate all over again.

Now, if it were something like shooting up with heroin every time that I helped someone, then I would be out searching for stranded people all over.

That is another thought. If this feeling is "So good" or such a driving factor, how come I don't go searching for people to help?

 

[INFJesus]

It makes you feel good. You did it for yourself.

Having spent a good portion of my Life in retail and retail management, What am I doing when I am given too much change back and I always point out their error and return the extra cash.??

It's at this point that I simply know what it feels like to be short at the end of a shift and I do not wish this on someone else. It's empathy
and it is done soley for their benefit not mine.

There is no manipulation there and we both feel good at the end of it.

 

[VH]

I had to start a separate thread and plus no one really talked about it when I asked so I'm asking again because I really want to know.

I have been in deep, deep thought about this, about who I am allowing to manipulate me.

Do we all let people manipulate us to some degree?

Are we immediately aware of it, but then choose how we will deal with it?

When do we know when it is dangerous, or on the other side, somewhat to our advantage?

Do us INFJs allow ourelves to be manipulated?

And if we are being manipulated, are we emotionally gullible or are there other darker reasons?

As far as I can tell, all of us INFJs allow ourselves to be manipulated.

I call it Neurosis of the Giver.

It's a function of our secondary Fe, which is inherently concerned with the well being of others and as a secondary function is our parental mode. We give reflexively.

I usually don't realize I've given too much until I've given more than I can and gotten nothing in return. Otherwise, I don't even notice that I'm always the one who gives more, unless someone starts to give more than me, and I have trouble accepting it.

 

[NeverAmI]

How are you defining "best"? If you embezzle money to pay off loan sharks, but then feel guilty about it for the rest of your life, was that "best"?

I define best as whatever the most efficient action is to fulfill your wants/needs.

 

[TrevOrTrevor]

There is scientific proof that there is emotion from getting a thank you, there is emotion from any sort of social interaction.

But...

The gain of doing something like that is so absolutely out of proportion to the amount of work it takes to achieve it in some instances that it completely dismisses the idea that I do it for that feeling. I certainly don't get excited when I see someone stranded, usually I get pissed and I moan under my breath.

This is the altruism debate all over again.

Now, if it were something like shooting up with heroin every time that I helped someone, then I would be out searching for stranded people all over.

That is another thought. If this feeling is "So good" or such a driving factor, how come I don't go searching for people to help?

Okay. All I'm saying is, everything you do, whether it's killing an intruder in defense (even if you're opposed to killing) or giving some beggar money, is because you needed to do that at that time (obviously not including an accidental decision/action). If something doesn't benefit you in some way, even if it's just a millisecond of feeling good about helping someone or whatever, you wouldn't do it. Therefore, everything you do is for your own benefit.