Love as the essence of faith? | Page 2 | INFJ Forum

Love as the essence of faith?

I disagree, if people only believed what they were taught then religion would never exist in the first place. Not to mention the fact the their are Christians in Islamic environments and converts from every wake wand walk of life.

False.
Of course not everyone beliefs what they're taught, but 99.9% do.
Then there are some people who are innovative.

Christians in Islamic environments is due to globalisation.
There's still a learning process, environments aren't the good old 'school-parents-friends' only anymore.
 
False.
Of course not everyone beliefs what they're taught, but 99.9% do.
Then there are some people who are innovative.

Christians in Islamic environments is due to globalisation.
There's still a learning process, environments aren't the good old 'school-parents-friends' only anymore.

your forgetting that the Christians in the Islamic environments were there first, and before them were the pagan gods of Rome, Greece, Palestine, Carthage and don't forget the Jews being prior to the Christians.


This all happened prior to the modern world and globalization.


secondly I highly doubt that statistic is correct, in fact I bet there aren't any realistic surveys on the subject.
 
your forgetting that the Christians in the Islamic environments were there first, and before them were the pagan gods of Rome, Greece, Palestine, Carthage and don't forget the Jews being prior to the Christians.


This all happened prior to the modern world and globalization.


People still travelled.
Especially christians.
You can't deny the influences of cultures on eachother.

Isn't it obvious that we believe because we are taught to believe when you look at the religions that are practiced in regions of the world?
 
People still travelled.
Especially christians.
You can't deny the influences of cultures on eachother.

Isn't it obvious that we believe because we are taught to believe when you look at the religions that are practiced in regions of the world?

No it's not obvious, in fact it's simply not true. Christianity didn't spread by early Christians reproducing and moving, It gained converts at an unheard of rate due to how heavily persecuted it was in early stages. It's why you'll find more Christians in China as opposed to the U.S..

Edit:

In fact China is a great example of why your argument is false, the culture, teachings and common way of thinking are very anti Christian and yet there are more Christian converts then any where in the world


Of course I'm not saying cultures don't influence each other, just to not in the way your proposing.
 
Last edited:
No it's not obvious, in fact it's simply not true. Christianity didn't spread by early Christians reproducing and moving, It gained converts at an unheard of rate due to how heavily persecuted it was in early stages. It's why you'll find more Christians in China as opposed to the U.S..

Edit:

In fact China is a great example of why your argument is false, the culture, teachings and common way of thinking are very anti Christian and yet there are more Christian converts then any where in the world


Of course I'm not saying cultures don't influence each other, just to not in the way your proposing.

Oh, so religion consists out of people who don't know what they believe?

'Lol dude I'm a christian, I'm so noncomformist.'
 
Oh, so religion consists out of people who don't know what they believe?

'Lol dude I'm a christian, I'm so noncomformist.'


I think you've lost this argument.
 
I think you've lost this argument.

Not really.
You just seem to forget that cultures change.

And yes, cultures change.
So it makes sense that the religions we're taught change.

The fact that there are christians in China, doesn't have anything to do with religion being taught.
People move, bring some of their culture with them, they teach others.
 
Not really.
You just seem to forget that cultures change.

And yes, cultures change.
So it makes sense that the religions we're taught change.

The fact that there are christians in China, doesn't have anything to do with religion being taught.
People move, bring some of their culture with them, they teach others.

religion isn't about culture and that's why this argument fails
 
religion isn't about culture and that's why this argument fails

Oh yeah? It isn't about culture?
Then please tell me why it's not.
You can't say that my arguments fail without saying WHY they fail.
 
Christians in Islamic environments is due to globalisation.

I'm going to stop you here rather than read on more bullshit.

This statement is monumentally ignorant. You're implying that a religion cannot survive in a culture that isn't predominantly accepting of it. If this were true then Islam wouldn't exist, Christianity wouldn't exist, Judaism wouldn't exist, Bahai wouldn't exist. All these religions were spurned as soon as they started, and still are, yet each one is surviving. In fact one of the smallest major religion is also one of the oldest.

I don't pretend to have love for religion, but please don't just make shit up.
 
I'm going to stop you here rather than read on more bullshit.

This statement is monumentally ignorant. You're implying that a religion cannot survive in a culture that isn't predominantly accepting of it. If this were true then Islam wouldn't exist, Christianity wouldn't exist, Judaism wouldn't exist, Bahai wouldn't exist. All these religions were spurned as soon as they started, and still are, yet each one is surviving. In fact one of the smallest major religion is also one of the oldest.

I don't pretend to have love for religion, but please don't just make shit up.

No, I'm not.
I'm just saying that religions are spreading more easily because of globalisation.

Edit:
Just to clarify: I was talking about how people move to different countries and bring their culture with them.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Actually an expert on the matter with whom I have discussed things on a different forum claims that by the time of Augustine (perhaps even by the time of Tertullian) Christianity was spread primarily from parents to children, with hardly any evangelism going on anymore. He argues that Christians went from a minority to an overwhelming majority by out-breeding the pagans, as they were one of the only groups with positive population (living in a society that had been below the basic replacement fertility rate since a couple generations before the Republic became the Empire) growth due largely to their strong opposition to abortion and infanticide. However, there was still very high levels of evangelism before that, especially during the life of Justin Martyr.
 
Actually an expert on the matter with whom I have discussed things on a different forum claims that by the time of Augustine (perhaps even by the time of Tertullian) Christianity was spread primarily from parents to children, with hardly any evangelism going on anymore. He argues that Christians went from a minority to an overwhelming majority by out-breeding the pagans, as they were one of the only groups with positive population (living in a society that had been below the basic replacement fertility rate since a couple generations before the Republic became the Empire) growth due largely to their strong opposition to abortion and infanticide. However, there was still very high levels of evangelism before that, especially during the life of Justin Martyr.

I'm not going to lie, I think you expert is not an expert. Mainly because Christianity was widespread prior to Constantine becoming emperor and declaring Christianity as Rome's major religion. Not to mention Christian were being martyred left and right, so even if Christian produced more children, it would be negated through the many, many assaults on Christianity.

A good source of info for this would be "John Foxe's Book of Martyrs"
 
  • Like
Reactions: Claridon
Oh, so religion consists out of people who don't know what they believe?

'Lol dude I'm a christian, I'm so noncomformist.'

Oh yeah? It isn't about culture?
Then please tell me why it's not.
You can't say that my arguments fail without saying WHY they fail.


Sure I can, the same way you can make Ad Hom attacks.
 
Galatians 3:23-26 (King James Version)
23 But before faith came , we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed . 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come , we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Romans 8:25
25But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. KJV


clearrectangle.gif

<< Hebrews 11 >> (also known as the faith chapter)
King James Version 1Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 4By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh. 5By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him. 7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
8By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
17By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure. 20By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come. 21By faith Jacob, when he was a dying, blessed both the sons of Joseph; and worshipped, leaning upon the top of his staff. 22By faith Joseph, when he died, made mention of the departing of the children of Israel; and gave commandment concerning his bones.
23By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment. 24By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; 25Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season; 26Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward. 27By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king: for he endured, as seeing him who is invisible. 28Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them. 29By faith they passed through the Red sea as by dry land: which the Egyptians assaying to do were drowned.
30By faith the walls of Jericho fell down, after they were compassed about seven days. 31By faith the harlot Rahab perished not with them that believed not, when she had received the spies with peace. 32And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: 33Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: 36And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: 37They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; 38(Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. 39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

One of my favorite examples of faith is that of a young child (life jacket on) standing on a diving board and a parent standing underneath asking him to jump. Trust is why I like this example so much. The child jumps because he has learned from past experiences to trust the person holding their hands up waiting below in the water. Let the child hit the water and go under scared to death and that trust may not be there next time.

A very mature Christian may have all things he has hoped for, just not yet.

Matthew 8:5-10
And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
6And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
7And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
8The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
9For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it. 10When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.

Will comment on these as time permits. Feel free to do so.
 
Last edited:
"For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

I ask those that study Bible out there if faith is part of the promises and part of the gift of God?

"Having hope and faith are the keys to unlock the door to your awareness of love's presence."
copied
 
Last edited:
it's a stretch. love is likely a remnant of our strongly socially interdependent past, nothing more
Genetic Fallacy.:mcunni:
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: TinyBubbles
Genetic Fallacy.:mcunni:

Love?

I would like to think love to have always been, though my saying that is off topic I feel.
 
Last edited:
Love?

I would like to think love to have always been, though my saying that is off topic I feel.
No, I was pointing out a logical fallacy that the quoted argument commits.
 
No, I was pointing out a logical fallacy that the quoted argument commits.

Thanks for the clarity; I am tired.