Looking for advice on my INFJ friend!

[Ren]

Could you give me a quick summary of what happened to Ren? I'm not sure if I've read anything about that during my time lurking here! D:
It does seem like a red flag at first, but she's showed me screenshots of conversations, voice messages, and all that kind of stuff, when she was opening up about these things, I just can't help but believe her. Either it's real or it's a huge elaborate scheme to trick me into giving her attention, but her staying in touch for all this time, actively conversing as well (it's not a one-sided conversation or anything) feels like way too much effort to just be in it for the attention!

It's a rough situation after all. I guess from reading all the answers and answering them in here I came to the following conclusion:

I'm looking for face-to-face connection, friends (/or more) to have fun and make memories with.
What I need from her is:
- Confirmation/explanation on why she isn't ready yet. (Is she afraid of commitment? Is she afraid to fall in love due to traumas?)
- I'd like her to show that she's progressing towards "being ready", with which I'm willing to help.
If she is able to do that for me, I feel like I'll be fine giving her time and waiting for her.

I think you could legitimately end up waiting forever. What I can tell now from my perspective is that it's not normal not to have met this person in 9 months when it's clear you've been wanting to, whatever the reasons might be. Basically, what my experience (of which I made a video, shared below — feel free to watch) taught me, and which I believe is the difficult truth, is that you don't really know a person until you have met them, and not just once, but several times over a long period. That's even more the case with online dating, because the relationship is purely virtual and each party has a great deal of control over what they decide to show and not show. What you're experiencing with her might seem very real, and no doubt some parts of it are, but it's not the whole thing, it simply cannot be until you've met the other person in the flesh. So if you see yourself becoming more and more attached and still the INFJ you're talking to doesn't want to meet, I would warn you to be careful. Don't prevent yourself from meeting other people in real life for the sake of someone that genuinely might never ever meet up with you. I don't recommend giving her an ultimatum or anything, but maybe try to do a Skype with her and express the fact that you want to meet with her, as directly as possible. It's entirely fair on your part to do that, and if she still can't, then I'd really recommend you put some distance between you and her. The situation you're in might seem normal enough, but it's not, and the fact that you felt the need to share your story here proves it. I hope this helps.

Oh, and by the way: even if she does agree to meet, you won't know for sure until you've actually met her. The person I was online dating cancelled her flight on the very day, after 10 months of a relationship that involved talking every day without fail and what seemed like very heartfelt expressions of love and care. I never heard from her again.

 

[Daustus]

I've thought about this most of the morning. Something doesn't feel right that you haven't met yet and there isn't a firm plan to meet. I think @Ren 's advice exactly what I would plan to do next.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

I think you could legitimately end up waiting forever. What I can tell now from my perspective is that it's not normal not to have met this person in 9 months when it's clear you've been wanting to, whatever the reasons might be. Basically, what my experience (of which I made a video, shared below — feel free to watch) taught me, and which I believe is the difficult truth, is that you don't really know a person until you have met them, and not just once, but several times over a long period. That's even more the case with online dating, because the relationship is purely virtual and each party has a great deal of control over what they decide to show and not show. What you're experiencing with her might seem very real, and no doubt some parts of it are, but it's not the whole thing, it simply cannot be until you've met the other person in the flesh. So if you see yourself becoming more and more attached and still the INFJ you're talking to doesn't want to meet, I would warn you to be careful. Don't prevent yourself from meeting other people in real life for the sake of someone that genuinely might never ever meet up with you. I don't recommend giving her an ultimatum or anything, but maybe try to do a Skype with her and express the fact that you want to meet with her, as directly as possible. It's entirely fair on your part to do that, and if she still can't, then I'd really recommend you put some distance between you and her. The situation you're in might seem normal enough, but it's not, and the fact that you felt the need to share your story here proves it. I hope this helps.

Oh, and by the way: even if she does agree to meet, you won't know for sure until you've actually met her. The person I was online dating cancelled her flight on the very day, after 10 months of a relationship that involved talking every day without fail and what seemed like very heartfelt expressions of love and care. I never heard from her again.

Thanks for the reply! Your message does make me feel a bit more wary about the situation and it does feel weird, when I think about it! I'll get to watching your video later tonight! This message helped me form a final conclusion, I'll write it down below!

I've thought about this most of the morning. Something doesn't feel right that you haven't met yet and there isn't a firm plan to meet. I think @Ren 's advice exactly what I would plan to do next.

At first glance it does sound weird, but it's as my therapist said; she has multiple traumas including rape, violent youth, narcissistic partner with which she, so far, has been too scared to find help for. My therapist explained that such things can leave you paranoid and stressed, depressed and all, for many many years. In that case it isn't too weird she wouldn't want to meet up. I might just be the next in line to abuse her and leave her heartbroken. I know that's not my intention; she can't be so sure anymore.

What I have in mind is the following:
I'm going to suggest talking about her problems with her and how to work on them. I'll offer to guide her into therapy, help her find a space and comfortable psychologist for her to work on things. Besides that, I'll offer to talk about and find out what the real reasons she isn't "ready yet" are and then work together towards "readying her up". I'll add that it's on her pace, no rush, no pressure, but that I simply need to see her at least make an effort to get to the next step in our "relationship". Does that sound reasonable?

Besides that, I'm definitely not going to hold back on meeting potential new friends (and possibly more, who knows!), unless things actively change. You're all right, I can't sit and watch my life go by for someone who I might eventually never meet up with.

Thanks for the messages, y'all! ♡

 

[Asa]

but the IDEA of me meeting others (that's thoughts SHE creates in her head, not me), makes her feel jealous. She's not saying I couldn't meet others if I wanted to, I never said I'm looking to meet others, but the thought of it is scary to her.

@WeirdBeardBob - Ohhhh, I misread. I admit I was in a hurry when I read your post.
So, now that you've explained, I think her jealousy is another red flag. It's a sign of insecurity and potential possessiveness.

I also respect the way you fall in love - ie, needing deep connection.

I trust Asa's gut.

For me it's the 'I'm not ready because of x' rationalisations that are fishy. It sounds like what happened to @Ren.

I'm sorry I'm not commenting on the minutia of this, but the red flags are too prominent for me.

I thought the same thing as Hos when I read your initial post. It sounds like what happened to @Ren.
People can develop genuine relationships online, and people can have genuine reservations, but the prolonged, "I'm not ready yet," excuse gives me a bad feeling.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

@WeirdBeardBob - Ohhhh, I misread. I admit I was in a hurry when I read your post.
So, now that you've explained, I think her jealousy is another red flag. It's a sign of insecurity and potential possessiveness.

I also respect the way you fall in love - ie, needing deep connection.



I thought the same thing as Hos when I read your initial post. It sounds like what happened to @Ren.
People can develop genuine relationships online, and people can have genuine reservations, but the prolonged, "I'm not ready yet," excuse gives me a bad feeling.

No worries! It's all good! I do agree, though! The constant "not ready yet" would only be a viable excuse, I'd say, if said person was making an effort to actually "get ready". She says she wants to, but isn't ready yet and my head just screams "Then work towards getting ready!"

 

[acd]

The thing is she can say she's working on it but there's always the possibility to put things off and make excuses. I'm not really trying to be harsh here and I can appreciate that she has suffered trauma and that it makes forming relationships and trust with others difficult--- but at some point you have to fight your way out of the victim mentality and seek help to overcome. Otherwise, you just end up dragging those you care about into the abyss with you. (When I say you-- I'm talking about your friend.) She's lucky to have found someone willing to wait on her but I'd say she's got to be willing to do some work if she says she wants to be with you. So I'm glad you're going to talk to her about that.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

The thing is she can say she's working on it but there's always the possibility to put things off and make excuses. I'm not really trying to be harsh here and I can appreciate that she has suffered trauma and that it makes forming relationships and trust with others difficult--- but at some point you have to fight your way out of the victim mentality and seek help to overcome. Otherwise, you just end up dragging those you care about into the abyss with you. (When I say you-- I'm talking about your friend.) She's lucky to have found someone willing to wait on her but I'd say she's got to be willing to do some work if she says she wants to be with you. So I'm glad you're going to talk to her about that.

I completely agree with you! And I also feel like the amount of months I've been chatting with her (especially when you consider it's daily, but also the things "we've been through" and supported each other through) it's reasonable of me to expect her to try and make progress. I've met her needs for needing time, now it's time to compromise

So, I sent her the following message: "So, you've been saying you'd like to meet up with me but you're not ready for it yet, you say you simply can't. I feel like, if you truly DO want to meet up with me, after all these months it's fair that we start talking about it with more depth and work towards a face-to-face meeting. I feel that, if you really do want to meet up with me, you'd be open/down for this, cause if you don't want to work towards actually meeting with me, can you really say you want to meet up with me? So, I don't want to push you into meeting me, I don't want to set an ultimatum, but what I do want is talk and find out what the exact reason you are unable to meet with me is and how we can work towards overcoming said reason. This way, we can hopefully work together to find a way to actually meet up and thus full-fill both of our needs. We can do this at your pace, there's no rush nor pressure, but I'd just really like to see SOME progress at this point".

Haven't quite got a response, but I do realise that what she's going to answer says enough about her actual intentions.

 

[Sloe Djinn]

I completely agree with you! And I also feel like the amount of months I've been chatting with her (especially when you consider it's daily, but also the things "we've been through" and supported each other through) it's reasonable of me to expect her to try and make progress. I've met her needs for needing time, now it's time to compromise

So, I sent her the following message: "So, you've been saying you'd like to meet up with me but you're not ready for it yet, you say you simply can't. I feel like, if you truly DO want to meet up with me, after all these months it's fair that we start talking about it with more depth and work towards a face-to-face meeting. I feel that, if you really do want to meet up with me, you'd be open/down for this, cause if you don't want to work towards actually meeting with me, can you really say you want to meet up with me? So, I don't want to push you into meeting me, I don't want to set an ultimatum, but what I do want is talk and find out what the exact reason you are unable to meet with me is and how we can work towards overcoming said reason. This way, we can hopefully work together to find a way to actually meet up and thus full-fill both of our needs. We can do this at your pace, there's no rush nor pressure, but I'd just really like to see SOME progress at this point".

Haven't quite got a response, but I do realise that what she's going to answer says enough about her actual intentions.

I like it. It’s honest and straightforward without being pushy or judgmental.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

I like it. It’s honest and straightforward without being pushy or judgmental.

Thanks! I like to believe I'm going against it with a mature and realistic mindset - trying to be fair to the both of us

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

I'd like to add that I'm very much leaning towards her actually being afraid of commitment.

- She enjoys me talking about things we could potentially do in the future
- She likes when I name her nicknames, like when I jokingly call her bae
- She likes my good morning messages and me checking in, asking her how work's been going
- She likes us bantering towards each other about a possible future together
- I can basically hear her crying when she responds to me sending her a thoughtful gift (as I mentioned, we exchange small gifts every now and then, when we know someone's been having it rough, we try to cheer them up with a thoughtful gift) - I can tell it's sheer happiness.

Add to that the point I mentioned in my initial post

Now there's some other things that really come together with the symptoms for commitment phobia
- She, in the past, mentioned a few times that she thought I was too demanding - we talked about this, and it turns out when she looked at it objectively she agreed I wasn't demanding at all
- She shuts down when I mention actually meeting up
- She shuts down when I mention talking about feelings
- She doesn't label any of her relationships as relationships; they've been short and all of them "weren't real relationships".
- She sometimes sends mixed messages
- She often replies in ambiguous ways and I really need to dig the actual answer out of her
- She uses a lot of "Maybe" and "Possibly"

Anyone familiar with this? What's your input? Is it possibly an INFJ thing too? (INFJ are looking for deep and emotional connections with one person exclusively, maybe they're scared to go for the wrong person?)

 

[Ren]

I like it. It’s honest and straightforward without being pushy or judgmental.

Thanks! I like to believe I'm going against it with a mature and realistic mindset - trying to be fair to the both of us

I agree with Sloe Djinn, it's an honest, heartfelt and respectful message. Fair play to you for being brave I do think that was the best decision you could have taken.

 

[Ren]

Add to that the point I mentioned in my initial post

Now there's some other things that really come together with the symptoms for commitment phobia
- She, in the past, mentioned a few times that she thought I was too demanding - we talked about this, and it turns out when she looked at it objectively she agreed I wasn't demanding at all
- She shuts down when I mention actually meeting up
- She shuts down when I mention talking about feelings
- She doesn't label any of her relationships as relationships; they've been short and all of them "weren't real relationships".
- She sometimes sends mixed messages
- She often replies in ambiguous ways and I really need to dig the actual answer out of her
- She uses a lot of "Maybe" and "Possibly"

Anyone familiar with this? What's your input? Is it possibly an INFJ thing too? (INFJ are looking for deep and emotional connections with one person exclusively, maybe they're scared to go for the wrong person?)

I don't think it's an INFJ thing. Though if she is INFJ, she might paradoxically be good at conveying these things in such a way that you might keep the thing going. INFJs can be good at that, even though it's objectively manipulation.

I'm not saying she's being consciously being manipulative but the objective situation seems to be that the virtual relationship you guys have suits her as is, but it doesn't suit you. So do remain wary to an extent.

People can allow themselves to be as loving and expressive of feelings as they want from the safety of an online relationship. This does not mean that this will lead to the same in real life, nor to even meeting in real life at all.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

I agree with Sloe Djinn, it's an honest, heartfelt and respectful message. Fair play to you for being brave I do think that was the best decision you could have taken.

Thank you! I feel like at this point I can let it go it needed, and I can be proud to tell myself I've tried my best to make things work, but it probably just wasn't meant to!

 

[Ren]

Thank you! I feel like at this point I can let it go it needed, and I can be proud to tell myself I've tried my best to make things work, but it probably just wasn't meant to!

Yes, that's a good mindset to have

I'm really glad to hear you have a positive approach to the whole thing.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

She doesn't label any of her relationships as relationships; they've been short and all of them "weren't real relationships".

Uh oh.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

Uh oh.

Haha, I get the reply and it IS definitely a red flag. Even if they were bad relationships (which they were from what she told me); they were still relationships. But it's also a symptom of commitment phobia - apparently they're scared to commit and actually naming it a relationship makes it real

 

[Asa]

@WeirdBeardBob
Your letter to her was good. I agree with @Sloe Djinn and @Ren.

Her behavior is not an INFJ thing. It sounds like she isn't that into you and she may be stringing you along because she likes the attention.

Thank you! I feel like at this point I can let it go it needed, and I can be proud to tell myself I've tried my best to make things work, but it probably just wasn't meant to!

Unfortunately, this seems like the wisest decision.

Uh oh.

I agree, especially when placed on the entire list.

Some people will say they don't have any/many friends when they actually do. They say it because they're insecure, or depressed, or because they don't think they can open up with people. Other people say this and it is a huge red flag.


Also, I agree with @acd's post. She was spot-on.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

@WeirdBeardBob
Your letter to her was good. I agree with @Sloe Djinn and @Ren.

Her behavior is not an INFJ thing. It sounds like she isn't that into you and she may be stringing you along because she likes the attention.



Unfortunately, this seems like the wisest decision.



I agree, especially when placed on the entire list.

Some people will say they don't have any/many friends when they actually do. They say it because they're insecure, or depressed, or because they don't think they can open up with people. Other people say this and it is a huge red flag.


Also, I agree with @acd's post. She was spot-on.

Thanks, I think I did the right thing She also replied to it, she says she's finding it hard to just open up about this right here and now, and asked me if I could perhaps ask questions to help her figure things out, so we're talking as we speak!

I see where you're coming from! But it feels, kind of weird if she WAS stringing me along! Like I mentioned before, I have her on social medias. She tags me, and just me (with some of her female friends or her sister as exceptions), in posts/memes. I even interacted with family members of hers over facebook posts and she told her sister about me (her sister, I've also interacted with over facebook). I feel if she was just stringing me along, she'd keep me hidden, private, no one should know I exist.

She is open about having many friends, but she does state she only has little "CLOSE" friends, people with whom she can fully be herself, with whom she can share things and all - next to that; she is actually depressed.

 

[Asa]

@WeirdBeardBob – What I meant by leading you on was: Some women like the attention of a man and want to keep him as a friend, but have no intention of letting the friendship evolve, even if they give mixed signals and sound open to other possibilities.

Whether this is true or not, whatever her issues are, she either wants to meet you or she does not.

 

[WeirdBeardBob]

For those who would like an update: I tried to talk with her about the entire situation today; she seemed willing to talk, as long as I asked her questions. She told me she has a hard time just opening up and speaking her own thoughts without anyone digging with her. Fine!

I mentioned how it's interesting how she says she wants to meet up, but won't cause "she's not ready". I asked her why she's not ready, and brought up some examples. All of the examples she just replied "Dunno /shrugs" to. I eventually asked if I was save to talk about commitment of phobia, just general talk, not trying to diagnose her. That was fine. I explained her the symptoms, the causes, how people with fear of commitment don't generally realise they have it. She agreed, once again, that it's really recognisable and both the causes and most of the symptoms are present... "But I don't think that's me ".

I gave her some more ideas of why she's not quite ready yet, she gave me ambiguous answers, and I tried to talk about those answers with her - to no luck.

I followed up saying I had to keep in mind that she might simply just be fine with how our "relationship" is right now and has no intentions of moving further. She replied with a shrug. I replied that I thought it was really rude to reply like that - how I was talking about my thoughts/feelings, how I was trying to help her dig (which she agreed to) and find HER true feelings. How I'm constantly working to improve and strengthen whatever it is we have, trying to move on to a next step, and how she just shrugs me off. Told her she doesn't show ANY effort at all and that I wonder if she actually even wants to move forward.

She told me she simply doesn't feel like she's ready yet, and that she doesn't want to talk about these things at this hour (which is interesting, cause I intentionally asked her if it was okay to talk about it "now" and she said yes).

I ended the chat with
"You keep saying you'd like to meet up, but you won't
You say I'm worth 15 minutes of your time, but you won't give them to me
You're saying you'd like to continue with the good morning and good night messages, but lately, if I don't send them to you, I don't get any back (editor's note: she's been feeling down and depressed and that's supposedly the reason why she hasn't been sending those).
You say you're not stringing me along, but you won't show ANY effort to full-fill my needs (even though I clearly talked about those when we just started chatting and you said those were clear and you'd try to full-fill them).
It's important that actions and words match each other; and yours simply don't. You say you'd like me to wait, but I simply can't anymore, if you don't even show ANY effort at all. I'm sorry, but the way things are going right now simply isn't working for me."

So, yea! That's been working really well! We'll see if this message will make her understand that she needs to put in some effort if she wants to keep whatever it is we have.

On the plusside, a friend randomly introduced me to a friend of hers (yesterday) who I've ended up chatting with. She's also an INFJ, so far she's making me laugh a lot and she's actually asked me if I want to hang out and play some co-op Switch games somewhere during the next weekend, so that's pretty awesome!