Let's talk about Satan | Page 10 | INFJ Forum

Let's talk about Satan

I understand all that.

However I'm not talking about making a well thought argument. I'm talking about stuff like forcibly kicking people off land which they depend on, and jailing political opponents, and disbarring lawyers that even dare to take civil rights cases.

Yeah forcing people to do things is coercion, which i agree is a thing to be avoided

All the things you list above are going on right now in the USA

1. Kicking people off their land:

There are people being kicked off their land for fracking at the moment. There is also a plan under UN Agenda 21 to move vast amounts of people out of the country into urban zones: http://news.msn.com/rumors/rumor-obama-to-force-americans-to-move-to-the-cities

2. jailing political opponents

The Obama administration has been cracking down on whsitleblowers. Here's a list of whistleblowers, many of which are in jail or in exile such as Bradley Manning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_whistleblowers

Then there are those political prisoners being held in guantanamo bay without trial since the bush regime was in power

3.disbarring civil rights lawyers

http://nypost.com/2013/08/07/judge-...-stewart-from-prison-so-she-can-fight-cancer/

I'm also talking about the Red Scare, and the Cold War and all of that. Not even all that long ago.

All manufactured by the same people who are doing the things mentioned above right now....not in the past....but right now

Who wants it? It is clear that plenty enough do to make it a problem. To assume that someone who argues for something has given this thing actual thought is a big mistake in my opinion.

It depends on whether or not they are being genuine

There is a group of people with a vision for the world who will use any means to achieve it. They will cloak themselves in capitalism, fascism, socialism and any other -ism in order to acheive their end game of total centralised control

I also understand that neither ideal is inherently bad. Actually no ideal in itself can harm anyone. It's the people who hold them that do. Just look at McCarthyism and the House Committee on Un-American Activities.

What MaCarthy was trying to expose was not really 'communism'. He was trying to expose the globalists within the US who as i said above will cloak themselves in different -isms. For example at different times they have supported capitalism, fascism and socialism.

He was wrong to call them 'communists'....communism is not a state run by a centralised government, but each time it has been attmepted it has never got past the dictatorship of the proletariat stage and that is because the globalists never intended it to. they were just cloaking themselves in that ideology to create a centrally controlled government which is what they want

But MacCarthy was right in saying there were people embedded in positions of power all over the US that were working for the downfall and destruction of the US as a stage on the road to world government


Hollywood is full of the stooges of the globalists. Its also full of brainwashing and exploitation and centralised control. In fact the entire industry based there could be said to be a propaganda machine designed to manipulate how the public think and feel about things

here's a recent story from the mainstream news about how a hollywood producer has admitted to being an international arms dealer and Israeli spy:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/revealed-arnon-milchan--the-hollywood-producer-behind-hits-pretty-woman-fight-club-and-la-confidential-who-became-a-reallife-james-bond-8958234.html


These globalists run the central banking system, the oil industry and the movie industry. They also dominate the global weapons and narcotics trade. They use the US military to achieve their ends. have a look at the graph below showing opium production in afghanistan under the taliban and under US control:

1461182_598287360207454_901079453_n.jpg


Edit edit:
Also you will probably say that they aren't true Socialists or true Communists or truly Democratic, and I will agree with you on that. However, the issue is that many delusionally believe they are what they claim to be, and delusion is a large problem.

Yes it is

The only answer for it is for people to increase their awarenss and become more savy and streetwise because people in power are rarely what they pretend to be
 
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Sorry for not responding. I was a little bit busy and these kind of questions require serious thinking and pondering.
But anyway, if you still are willing to talk a bit, I ll try to answer a bit.
Firstly, I have to make sure that you agree with the nature of the christian God and His attributes...
Well...it depends on your definition of God’s attributes and his nature...
Clearly in the bible there are two distinct ideas of who God is and how he behaves...they are not complimentary only contradictory...full of love or full of vengeance?
Either a Father loves his children and guides them....or he forces them to follow him under threat....which do you adhere to?
 
Well...it depends on your definition of God’s attributes and his nature...
Being a christian, my definition of God's attributes and his nature is to be found in Bible and the classical christian theology.
So that's the definition I want you to accept it if we will talk about the contradictions that you posted...

One other thing: you already accepted the christian definition of God, because your your questions on the God-hell relationship and God-man-salvation relationship were on the expense on the very nature of christian God and his actions described in the Bible. That is to say you attacked the God of the Bible already, you just are not consistent with that.

We can show this in another way: you can't point to a contradiction that is inexistent. Your (supposed) contradiction "works" only if you are consistent with the nature of the God of the Bible. Because is this christian God (along with His attributes) and not other God -that the christian teachings is based on.
 
Being a christian, my definition of God's attributes and his nature is to be found in Bible and the classical christian theology.
So that's the definition I want you to accept it if we will talk about the contradictions that you posted...

One other thing: you already accepted the christian definition of God, because your your questions on the God-hell relationship and God-man-salvation relationship were on the expense on the very nature of christian God and his actions described in the Bible. That is to say you attacked the God of the Bible already, you just are not consistent with that.

We can show this in another way: you can't point to a contradiction that is inexistent. Your (supposed) contradiction "works" only if you are consistent with the nature of the God of the Bible. Because is this christian God (along with His attributes) and not other God -that the christian teachings is based on.
Okay, then first answer this for me...I am not trying to be rude in anything I say (please keep that in mind) but I have questions to things based in the Bible that are nonsensical to ME (I cannot help but ask questions). Please also don’t think that I am personally attacking you...I am not...let’s have a discussion...a debate...let’s keep things civil.
Does a loving Father bodily punish his children....or....does a loving Father guide his children toward goodness? Does a loving Father ETERNALLY punish a child...one who has limited knowledge PURPOSEFULLY given to him/her...when they make a wrong decision?
Do you adhere to the idea of “free will”? or do you believe that “no step can be made without the Lord”?
Are we sheep free to roam where we like, or are we confined to a pasture...free to roam, but always under direction of the shepherd?
If God is omnipotent (all-powerful), why did he take six days to create everything? Why not speak everything into existence all at once....or is it just another parable?
If God is perfect, then why did he create something (us) so imperfect allowing pain, suffering and daily atrocities?
Was Noah’s ark another parable? Because it would be mathematically impossible to fit two of all the animals (millions and millions) much less food for them all.
How is it that the bible explains the earth to be 6,000 to 8,000 years old when we know that dinosaur bones are at least 65 million years old? This isn't the only example of our planet's age by any means, either.
Why can't the all-powerful God forgive someone of their sins AFTER they die?
God wants everyone to worship and follow him and, if they don't, they burn in hell for all eternity. What does this type of attitude say about his character? By definition, he would be described as a tyrant.
If Jesus died on the cross and spent three days in hell to pay for the sins of the world, then why would we have to go to hell ourselves and pay for them again? God is then, in essence, being paid for our sins twice. With that said, was Jesus' sacrifice not worthy enough? If that is the case, why should we care that he died for our sins if his sacrifice means nothing at all? Or do you adhere to “original sin”...thinking that he died for our original sin? Why should ALL the people who have ever been born have to pay for the sins of Adam and Eve who clearly only committed said “sin” following the plan of God?

I have more, but I’ll leave it there for the time being.
 
Okay, then first answer this for me...I am not trying to be rude in anything I say (please keep that in mind) but I have questions to things based in the Bible that are nonsensical to ME (I cannot help but ask questions). Please also don’t think that I am personally attacking you...I am not...let’s have a discussion...a debate...let’s keep things civil.
Got it. But still keep in mind that you didn't answer me, you just begin to raise other questions...
Do you adhere to the idea of “free will”? or do you believe that “no step can be made without the Lord”?
I am advocating "free will". However, some people, right from the very time they born, for them it will be “no step can be made without the Lord”.
Are we sheep free to roam where we like, or are we confined to a pasture...free to roam, but always under direction of the shepherd?
Again, to most of the people is "free to roam". To some people is the second one. This is a biblical teaching.
How is it that the bible explains the earth to be 6,000 to 8,000 years old when we know that dinosaur bones are at least 65 million years old? This isn't the only example of our planet's age by any means, either.
Firstly, there is the "young creation" interpretation, and there is the "old creation" interpretation. And honestly, I think on your side you find under the same ambiguity as me.
Sciente is not in agreement over the age of the earth, age of the sun, and age of the universe. It's very much controverse here. Some say it's even 6.000 years old. If you don't know about this, I'll search for some links and show you. But I demand the same think from you: show me a refference where it says that it's a universal scientific truth that the age of the earth is at least 65 milion years.
I'm not interested in the age of dinosaur bones, because the dating of something like that with carbon hides some huge errors, I'm sure you heard of that.
Edit:
I just want to say that I appreciate very much what you said about the manner of the debate and all that. Yes, let's keep things "civic".
 
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[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]
What's a huge error? We have to somehow define that as well.

Saying that dinosaurs were at least 65 million years old is a way different scenario than saying the earth is 6000 years old. This has to do with orders of magnitude.

If we estimate 65 million years but are off by half a million, or even a million, we could still call that very close. If we estimate 6000 years and are off by 100,000 years though, that's not even in the ballpark.

Edit:
Or in other words, how much error is actually in carbon dating? Is it 64,994,000 years worth of error? I mean if carbon dating is even half wrong that's still over 30 million. If it's even only accurate within 60 million that would leave another 5 million years hanging around. Saying that it's inaccurate by 64 point something million years would be entirely too convenient.
 
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Got it. But still keep in mind that you didn't answer me, you just begin to raise other questions...

I am advocating "free will". However, some people, right from the very time they born, for them it will be “no step can be made without the Lord”.

Again, to most of the people is "free to roam". To some people is the second one. This is a biblical teaching.

Firstly, there is the "young creation" interpretation, and there is the "old creation" interpretation. And honestly, I think on your side you find under the same ambiguity as me.
Sciente is not in agreement over the age of the earth, age of the sun, and age of the universe. It's very much controverse here. Some say it's even 6.000 years old. If you don't know about this, I'll search for some links and show you. But I demand the same think from you: show me a refference where it says that it's a universal scientific truth that the age of the earth is at least 65 milion years.
I'm not interested in the age of dinosaur bones, because the dating of something like that with carbon hides some huge errors, I'm sure you heard of that.
Edit:
I just want to say that I appreciate very much what you said about the manner of the debate and all that. Yes, let's keep things "civic".
Sorry if I didn’t answer your original question....let me try -
God to me first of all is not Christian specific...because God would not care what you called yourself...only what is in your heart.
I DO think that God is all loving, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and that God is merciful beyond what we can imagine.
However, that being said...I DO NOT think that God a grand punisher of souls...I do not think that God created Adam and Eve to NOT have them sin...I believe that they did exactly what he planed them to do. To think otherwise would mean that he failed in some way....to think that would also mean he has failed again and again....let me explain - If God is perfect and his creations perfect, why did he fail several times? He had to impose suffering upon the human race because Adam and Eve defied him by eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Fail.
He had to flood the planet 1,600 years later wiping out all but eight humans. Fail.
He had to confuse human language after Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Fail.
And then if you believe the statistics of some Christian churches a ver small number of people will actually get to go to heaven, most will end up in Hell. Fail.
How is this a track record of a perfect being? It is not. To me, certain stories in the Bible are written as parables....most likely written by mankind to explain the nature and beginnings of things...and perhaps they were given to mankind by God...but that doesn’t mean that they were anything other than a parable...they were put into terms that man could understand because (for example) if he tried to put into words how exactly the earth and the heavens were created not only would we NOT understand it at the time, but (granted it was in a language we could understand) it would be almost infinitely long. Hence the simple stories of creation. Besides, what is time to God? Created in 6 days? Nonsense. Time is a creation of man. A day is the time it take the Earth to rotate once...if there was no earth at the beginning then why measure it in such a way? A day to God could very well be a billion years or more...or perhaps time does not even exist for him at all?

So some people have free will and other’s do not? That is the first I have ever heard of that. Wouldn’t that create an unfair advantage for some? No...it would have to be all or nothing. The Bible has numerous verses explaining that we do NOT have free will...and I believe that most of those verses have been added by man in order to hold control over those they apostolate to. If you do not believe in "original sin” which is a ridiculous concept (to punish all those ever born for the sins of Adam and Eve even though they had NOTHING to do with the choice at all) then you must also believe that we have “free will” which is what I also believe. Here’s where I explain why - If I have free will, then you must also believe in the idea of an "absent God”. God did not create evil, but he does allow evil. If God had not allowed for the possibility of evil, both mankind and angels would be serving God out of obligation, not choice. He did not want “robots” that simply did what he wanted them to do because of their “programming.” God allowed for the possibility of evil so that we could genuinely have a free will...and even the slightest hint of physical proof of his existence would taint such a choice
You cannot grant free will and then interfere with someone’s choices...that would nullify your “free will”. Even with someone asking God for help, if you help one person and no someone else simply because they didn’t ask, is playing favoritism...I don’t believe that God plays favorites...if we are all truly his children then he will want ALL of us to succeed, not just those who ask. Besides that, I believe that before our existence in our current state, that was the deal we made...we knew we would be cut-off (so to speak) from God, that he would NOT intervene...even if it would pain him to see what we do with our lives....because we would have no more free will....we would be obligated to him. If God is omnipotent, why does he not just show himself to all of us, all at once, thereby ending this game of free will and temptation?
As far as being punished by God for those things we do here with our lives...like I said once before, a good Father does not punish a child for stealing a piece of candy...he teaches him why it is wrong...he certainly doesn’t burn them in Hell for all eternity....even if that child continuously steals, you still don’t take them home and beat them into submission with your belt....ultimately they are still a child, YOU are the adult, YOU are responsible for them, they are accountable to you...part of the fault lies within you as the adult for either not teaching them right from wrong (if they can understand it...how does God justify those who are mentally ill and cannot understand right from wrong - do they just go strait to Hell?) or knowing that they are a child and may take something, you fail in not supervising them properly as the adult. I can reiterate the reasons why the word “Hell” does NOT actually belong in the bible and how the word(s) meaning was changed to represent something completely different if you like. If we are truly “sheep” and God the shepherd then you would not punish a sheep for wandering through a hole in the fence...it is a sheep...it cannot fully understand either it’s transgression nor why it is being punished...what makes you think that mankind is any more intelligent than a sheep is to a shepherd? We are probably so much further below that...our understanding is probably not even that of a sheep to a human....try - mold maybe.
Science IS basically in agreement over the age of the earth actually....and they have a pretty good idea of the age of the universe too.
The earth is about 4.5 billion years old...they have very accurate ways of measuring this BTW. For a basic understanding of this here is the wiki-link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth
Unlike what many churches like to proclaim, radiometric dating is very accurate on the time scale....it certainly would not get it wrong by 4 billion years.
The universe is around 13.8 billion years - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_universe although they could be off by 37 million years or so here, this is not using radiometric dating which would provide for a more accurate model than what we currently have - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda-CDM_model.
So if you wish to boil it down to dinosaur bones then let me ask you this -
Why don't we see giants, fiery talking serpents, talking donkeys and many other mythical creatures that are described in the Bible? Or at very least the remains of them?

I’ll leave it there for now....don’t want to throw too many questions and too much info at you all at once.
Cheers!
 
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[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]
What's a huge error? We have to somehow define that as well.

Saying that dinosaurs were at least 65 million years old is a way different scenario than saying the earth is 6000 years old. This has to do with orders of magnitude.

If we estimate 65 million years but are off by half a million, or even a million, we could still call that very close. If we estimate 6000 years and are off by 100,000 years though, that's not even in the ballpark.

Edit:
Or in other words, how much error is actually in carbon dating? Is it 64,994,000 years worth of error? I mean if carbon dating is even half wrong that's still over 30 million. If it's even only accurate within 60 million that would leave another 5 million years hanging around. Saying that it's inaccurate by 64 point something million years would be entirely too convenient.

Good question... I am talking about an error of...64,950,000 milion years. Yes, it pretty much doesn't worth for an error, is it ? C -14 and any other radioactive method is only used for objects at maximum 40,000-50,000 years !

When scientists say they "date" dinosaur bones, they mean something else actually... Moreover, they base their "accuracy" on some hidden assumptions. Those assumptions are:

1. Evolution is true. We know evolution happened because evolution is true, and we know evolution must be true because it actually happened.

2.We don't know if evolution is true. But if we don't know evolution is true, then its much more probable that evolution is true, because it is really improbable that evolution is not true. Therefore, by logical necessity, we proclaim that evolution must be true.

So, the main assumption scientists make in dating dinosaur bones is that evolution is true. Then based on this assumption, they proceed to date dinosaur bones. Anyway, this is only telling me that scientists make comedy in their spare times, not anything else seriously.

And by what I said I don't disprove sciente at all. I believe in sciente, but not in its every "discovery" or "dating".
 

Sorry if I didn’t answer your original question....let me try -
God to me first of all is not Christian specific...because God would not care what you called yourself...only what is in your heart.
I DO think that God is all loving, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and that God is merciful beyond what we can imagine.
However, that being said...I DO NOT think that God a grand punisher of souls...

Okay, but I was not asking you what is your personal views on God... I was asking if you agree on the christian God along with his attributes as decribed in christian theology? Because all your questions are kind of based on these attributes... I mean, if your questioning were against your own God, then ....that would be absurd, and I don't need to answer them...

Speaking of your answer and your view of God, it sounds to me that this are christian teachings which can be found in Judaism too, so from where do you believe that God would "care only for what is in your heart"? Or that God is "all loving"?

God to me first of all is not Christian specific...because God would not care what you called yourself...only what is in your heart.
I DO think that God is all loving, that he is omnipotent, omniscient, and that God is merciful beyond what we can imagine.
Those teachings, that God is "all loving" and "care only for what is in your heart", are only found in the Bible if I'm not wrong. So, based on Bible are your beliefs or not? And if are based on Bible, how could you disprove the Bible? Or you disprove only some parts, which you think are added or something like that by religious zelots ?

I believe that they did exactly what he planed them to do. To think otherwise would mean that he failed in some way....to think that would also mean he has failed again and again....let me explain - If God is perfect and his creations perfect, why did he fail several times? He had to impose suffering upon the human race because Adam and Eve defied him by eating of the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Fail.
He had to flood the planet 1,600 years later wiping out all but eight humans. Fail.
He had to confuse human language after Nimrod and the Tower of Babel incident so that they could not effectively communicate with each other. Fail.
And then if you believe the statistics of some Christian churches a ver small number of people will actually get to go to heaven, most will end up in Hell. Fail.
He failed? How is tha?, I don't understand! Can you explain?

How is this a track record of a perfect being? It is not.
God is by definition a perfect being...and I mean classical theism here...if we talk about Christianity, God is not only perfection, is "The necessity" of perfection.
As far as being punished by God for those things we do here with our lives...like I said once before, a good Father does not punish a child for stealing a piece of candy...he teaches him why it is wrong...he certainly doesn’t burn them in Hell for all eternity....even if that child continuously steals, you still don’t take them home and beat them into submission with your belt....ultimately they are still a child, YOU are the adult, YOU are responsible for them, they are accountable to you...part of the fault lies within you as the adult for either not teaching them right from wrong (if they can understand it...how does God justify those who are mentally ill and cannot understand right from wrong - do they just go strait to Hell?) or knowing that they are a child and may take something, you fail in not supervising them properly as the adult. I can reiterate the reasons why the word “Hell” does NOT actually belong in the bible and how the word(s) meaning was changed to represent something completely different if you like.
I'll answer this for later...
 
Good question... I am talking about an error of...64,950,000 milion years. Yes, it pretty much doesn't worth for an error, is it ? C -14 and any other radioactive method is only used for objects at maximum 40,000-50,000 years !

When scientists say they "date" dinosaur bones, they mean something else actually... Moreover, they base their "accuracy" on some hidden assumptions. Those assumptions are:

1. Evolution is true. We know evolution happened because evolution is true, and we know evolution must be true because it actually happened.

2.We don't know if evolution is true. But if we don't know evolution is true, then its much more probable that evolution is true, because it is really improbable that evolution is not true. Therefore, by logical necessity, we proclaim that evolution must be true.

So, the main assumption scientists make in dating dinosaur bones is that evolution is true. Then based on this assumption, they proceed to date dinosaur bones. Anyway, this is only telling me that scientists make comedy in their spare times, not anything else seriously.

And by what I said I don't disprove sciente at all. I believe in sciente, but not in its every "discovery" or "dating".

Well that's how science has to work. If you don't assume a hypothesis and have basic axioms, then you cannot test anything because anything 'could be wrong'.

Also one doesn't have to assume evolution to check the age of dinosaurs. Even if there was no evolution, even if God made everything in six days, what if 4.54 billion years worth of stuff happened in compressed time. Just like if you approach the speed of light, time slows down relatively but to you it appears to have not changed. So six days to you could be many years to somebody else.

Who's to say that didn't happen? If it were true then both would be right in their own way.
 
sprinkles said:
Well that's how science has to work. If you don't assume a hypothesis and have basic axioms, then you cannot test anything because anything 'could be wrong'.

I don't agree that this is how sciente has to work. The truth is that one must assume agnosticism with regard to evolution from a sciente point of view. But they don't do this. They assume evolution is true. If they assume agnosticism,( the second assumption ) they somehow still arrive at the conclusion that evolution "must" be "true", because creationism "can't be true". But all this is begging the question, it is reasoning in a circle.

Because evolution hasn't been proved by any scientific evidence until now. Is just a theory. To see if evolution is true, we have to build a time machine.
But, I think evolution has some serious contradictions in it. It is a view that is self refutable. So we better use time machiness for something else, in my opinion.

Also one doesn't have to assume evolution to check the age of dinosaurs. Even if there was no evolution, even if God made everything in six days, what if 4.54 billion years worth of stuff happened in compressed time. Just like if you approach the speed of light, time slows down relatively but to you it appears to have not changed. So six days to you could be many years to somebody else.

This is very interesting and I didn't thought about it. Thanks for the hint : )

Who's to say that didn't happen? If it were true then both would be right in their own way.
Yes.
 
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[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

Well yes. One must still make assumptions in order to experiment though, because you need a base hypothesis to compare results to. You can't prove that I posted to you either without making some assumptions.

There are other assumptions such as the assumption that dinosaurs ever existed at all. "But we've seen the bones!" So? What if they were never alive? What if they were just bones that were made and put there? But we're not agnostic about that, are we?
 
[MENTION=9401]LucyJr[/MENTION]

Well yes. One must still make assumptions in order to experiment though, because you need a base hypothesis to compare results to. You can't prove that I posted to you either without making some assumptions.

There are other assumptions such as the assumption that dinosaurs ever existed at all. "But we've seen the bones!" So? What if they were never alive? What if they were just bones that were made and put there? But we're not agnostic about that, are we?
No, again no. Assumptions are ok when they are not made to arrive at a conclusion. When somebody is doing this he's making logical fallacies.
For example, if scientists make assumptions that evolution is true just for "the sake of the experiments" and are so inocents, then why not assume that creationism is true? I tell you exactly why: because they don't like creationism, the don't like the idea of a personal creator.
And I don't mean that they should assume creationism...this would be the same logical fallacy. I'm just saying this so you can see what I want to say.
One must still make assumptions in order to experiment though,
Yes, exactly. They should assume agnosticism and start experimenting.

There are other assumptions such as the assumption that dinosaurs ever existed at all.
I disagree. There is no assumption that "dinosaurs ever existed at all". One can't assume the existence of dinosaurs in order to prove their existence. That would be fallacious, begging the question, and absurd.

The correct assumption is the possibility of the existence of dinosaurs.
 
Okay, but I was not asking you what is your personal views on God... I was asking if you agree on the christian God along with his attributes as decribed in christian theology? Because all your questions are kind of based on these attributes... I mean, if your questioning were against your own God, then ....that would be absurd, and I don't need to answer them...

Speaking of your answer and your view of God, it sounds to me that this are christian teachings which can be found in Judaism too, so from where do you believe that God would "care only for what is in your heart"? Or that God is "all loving"?


Those teachings, that God is "all loving" and "care only for what is in your heart", are only found in the Bible if I'm not wrong. So, based on Bible are your beliefs or not? And if are based on Bible, how could you disprove the Bible? Or you disprove only some parts, which you think are added or something like that by religious zelots ?


He failed? How is tha?, I don't understand! Can you explain?


God is by definition a perfect being...and I mean classical theism here...if we talk about Christianity, God is not only perfection, is "The necessity" of perfection.

I'll answer this for later...
Firstly, no, I do not agree with how the Christian church has described God...an I do not agree with how they “follow” Jesus.
The Bible is NOT free of mistakes and contradictions...this is easily provable...For instance, Mark writes that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while John says Jesus died the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14).Who is right?
In Mark 4, for example, Jesus allegedly stated that the mustard seed is “the smallest of all seeds on the earth.”
We know this is simply not true....so is Jesus wrong?
Occasionally I see a bumper sticker that reads: “God said it, I believe it, and that settles it.” My response is always, what if God didn’t say it? What if the book you take as giving you God’s words instead contains human words. What if the Bible doesn’t give a foolproof answer to the questions of the modern age-abortion, women’s rights, gay rights, religious and supremacy, western style democracy and the like? What if we have to figure out how to live and what to believe on our own, without setting up the Bible as a false idol–or an oracle that gives us a direct line of communication with the Almighty?
Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later...much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places. Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts and there are words in the New Testament.
A.) Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states “Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” The crowd dissipates out of shame. This brilliant story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. “It was added by later scribes.” The story is not found in “our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible.

B) After Jesus died, Mary Magdalene and two other women came back to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus, according to Mark 16:1-2). They were met by a man in a white robe who told them that Jesus had been raised and was no longer there. The women fled and said nothing more to anyone out of fear (16:4-8). Everyone knows the rest of Mark’s Gospel, of course. The problem with the remainder of the story is that none of it was originally in the Gospel of Mark. It was added by a later scribe. Those additions include all of the following:
Jesus himself appeared to Mary Magdalene. She told the eleven apostles (minus Judas) about this vision, but they did not believe her. Jesus then appeared to the apostles, chastising them for failing to believe. He tells them that those who believe will be saved and those who don’t will be condemned. Then follows a critically important passage of the Bible.
"And these are the signs that will accompany those who believe: they will cast out demons in my name; they will speak in new tongues; and they will take up snakes in their hands; and if they drink any poison, it will not harm them; they will place their hands upon the sick and heal them."
Jesus is then allegedly taken up into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, while the disciples go forth into the world to proclaim the Gospel in miraculous fashion.
Without the above passages (which, again, were not written by Mark) the Pentecostals lose their justification for speaking in “tongues.” And the Appalachian snake handlers have no basis for their dangerous practices.

C) John 5:7-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity (that there are three persons and God but that all three constitute a single God):
"There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.”
There is strong evidence that this Trinity passage was entirely concocted and foisted upon Erasmus by outraged theologians who needed support for their prized theological doctrine.

Many believers rely fervently on the King James version of the Bible, for instance. They sometimes even say “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me.”
The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early 17th century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text.

In my experience, many people who cherry pick excerpts from the Bible as the proper way to determine what is moral are in utter denial that we don’t have accurate copies of the original writings. Most of them refuse to acknowledge that current popular versions of the Bible contain numerous discrepancies, even compared to the earliest manuscripts we do have. This is on top of the fact that their are hundreds of patent contradictions in the English version of the Bible. To most believers, none of this matters. Stay the course! In fact, in my experience most believers rarely read what the consider to be God’s own inspired word.

Then you have your literalists....those that believe everything at face value even though Jesus spoke in parables....in PARABLES! That means they were made up stories to share a moral or idea...and yet, people believe them at face value...why? That is utter ridiculousness.
The story of creation itself is a parable...if you take it as a literal translation then you are trying to read in the dark.
A far as evolution...why can’t the idea of God creating mankind and evolution go hand in hand?
He made made out of the clays of the earth right? Why can’t that mean that we once came from the primordial ooze until God evolved us?
Because it wasn’t written as such? God gave us wonderful, questioning minds for a reason....use your reason, question.
Yes, God and Jesus failed if you believe that - God being perfect sent his perfect son to save the “whole world” and he only managed to save a small percentage (what most churches now profess to be the number). If God wishes it so that the whole world be saved then it is.
 
Its worth baring in mind that King James who that version of the bible was named after was the head of Scottish freemasonry. Freemasonry is not christian in the sense that most christians would understand it...it is qabalistic

He also wrote a piece called Daemonologie which supported the hunting of witches. This lead to the torture and murder of hundreds of women who did not conform to his idea of a belief system

For me the biggest mistake of the literal christians is that they worship an external god with its own dictates. This hands away personal responsibility beyond those dictates....much like a policeman who oppresses people because he is following orders from above

If you are worshipping something outside of yourself you are giving away all your power to that thing. That is a trap because unscrupulous people will then lay claim to that external thing and control it and inevitably you will then need to worship that thing through them and that is exactly what we have seen the church do....the same church that burned its enemies

Many of the women punished were simply 'canny women'...people who were good healers. People who still had a native attachment to the land, the weather and the plants and herbs and could use them to heal people. The canny women often acted as midwives and helped alleviate the pain of women in childbirth. The church deemed this evil because the bible says that women must suffer pain in birth

So all traces of the old ways were violently stamped out. The romans did the same thing a thousand years before them when they stamped out the druids.

Judge a tree by its fruit
 
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Its worth baring in mind that King James who that version of the bible was named after was the head of Scottish freemasonry. Freemasonry is not christian in the sense that most christians would understand it...it is qabalistic

He also wrote a piece called Daemonologie which supported the hunting of witches. This lead to the torture and murder of hundreds of women who did not conform to his idea of a belief system

For me the biggest mistake of the literal christians is that they worship an external god with its own dictates. This hands away personal responsibility beyond those dictates....much like a policeman who oppresses people because he is following orders form above

If you are worshipping something outside of yourself you are giving away all your power to that thing. That is a trap because unscrupulous people will then lay claim to that external thing and control it and inevitably you will then need to worship that thing through them and that is exactly what we have seen the church do....the same church that burned its enemies

Many of the women punished were simply 'canny women'...people who were good healers. People who still had a native attachment to the land, the weather and the plants and herbs and could use them to heal people. The canny women often acted as midwives and helped alleviate the pain of women in childbirth. The church deemed this evil because th bible says that women must suffer pain in birth

So all traces of the old ways were violently stamped out. The romans did the same thing a thousand years before them when they stamped out the druids.
I wholly agree...
For all those Christians on the forum:
I find nothing wrong with your choice of religion...but it, like anything, even my own beliefs should always be taken with a grain of salt...learn the history, explore the religion and where it came from, listen to your own heart and your intuition. It, like many religions, is a wonderful way to live your life so long as you ACTUALLY follow the teachings written within...if the word of Jesus is the most important voice within the Bible and he promoted above all else - love, forgiveness, mercy, meekness....and denounced the ego, money, revenge....then follow that. Blowing up an abortion clinic is NOT Christ-like, spending millions of dollars (Mormons and Catholics) to fight gay marriage is NOT Christ-like, forcing your beliefs on others who do not share in your beliefs i.e. trying to circumvent the separation of church and state, is NOT Christ-like, he led and taught by example...he hung out with whores, and lepers, and the scum of the earth.
When I hear some of the things that so-called “Christians” like Sarah Palin and the like say, it makes me sick to my stomach...the hate-filled vomit that comes out of their mouths is amazing.
 
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I wholly agree...
For all those Christians on the forum:
I find nothing wrong with your choice of religion...but it, like anything, even my own beliefs should always be taken with a grain of salt...learn the history, explore the religion and where it came from, listen to your own heart and your intuition. It, like many religions, is a wonderful way to live your life so long as you ACTUALLY follow the teachings written within...if the word of Jesus is the most important voice within the Bible and he promoted above all else - love, forgiveness, mercy, meekness....and denounced the ego, money, revenge....then follow that. Blowing up an abortion clinic is NOT Christ-like, spending millions of dollars (Mormons and Catholics) to fight gay marriage is NOT Christ-like, forcing your beliefs on others who do not share in your beliefs i.e. trying to circumvent the separation of church and state, is NOT Christ-like, he led and taught by example...he hung out with whores, and lepers, and the scum of the earth.
When I hear some of the things that so-called “Christians” like Sarah Palin and the like say, it makes me sick to my stomach...the hate-filled vomit that comes out of their mouths is amazing.

Yeah i think its about living within the spirit of the thing

Jesus wasn't a mindless follower. He was questioning the status quo of his society. To target the moneychangers....that was to get right to the heart of the matter.

The money changers were controlling the half shekle which was the only currency allowed within the temple. They controlled the supply of the money and they controlled the value of the currency. People would have to come and exchange their goods for the half shekles so that they could then buy offerings within the temple.

The moneychangers started demanding more for each half sheckle. They brought commerce into the temple of art. And here we are 2000 years later and the moneychangers are once again screwing the people

What are the christians doing about it?
 
The supurb Bill Still on the moneychangers. if you want to know where to find the satanists...follow the money:

[video=youtube;m7bziHxRC78]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7bziHxRC78[/video]
 
The Bible is NOT free of mistakes and contradictions...this is easily provable...For instance, Mark writes that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while John says Jesus died the day before the Passover meal (John 19:14).Who is right?
In Mark 4, for example, Jesus allegedly stated that the mustard seed is “the smallest of all seeds on the earth.”
We know this is simply not true....so is Jesus wrong?

Not only do we not have the originals, we don’t have the first copies of the originals. We don’t even have copies of the copies of the originals, or copies of the copies of the copies of the originals. What we have are copies made later...much later. In most instances, they are copies made many centuries later. And these copies all differ from one another, and many thousands of places. Possibly it is easiest to put it in comparative terms: there are more differences among our manuscripts and there are words in the New Testament.
A.) Everyone knows the story about Jesus and the woman about to be stoned by the mob. This account is only found in John 7:53-8:12. The mob asked Jesus whether they should stone the woman (the punishment required by the Old Testament) or show her mercy. Jesus doesn’t fall for this trap. Jesus allegedly states “Let the one who is without sin among you be the first to cast a stone at her.” The crowd dissipates out of shame. This brilliant story was not originally in the Gospel of John or in any of the Gospels. “It was added by later scribes.” The story is not found in “our oldest and best manuscripts of the Gospel of John. Nor does its writing style comport with the rest of John. Most serious textual critics state that this story should not be considered part of the Bible.

B) After Jesus died, Mary Magdalene and two other women came back to the tomb to anoint the body of Jesus, according to Mark 16:1-2). They were met by a man in a white robe who told them that Jesus had been raised and was no longer there. The women fled and said nothing more to anyone out of fear (16:4-8). Everyone knows the rest of Mark’s Gospel, of course. The problem with the remainder of the story is that none of it was originally in the Gospel of Mark. It was added by a later scribe. Those additions include all of the following:
Jesus himself appeared to Mary Magdalene. She told the eleven apostles (minus Judas) about this vision, but they did not believe her. Jesus then appeared to the apostles, chastising them for failing to believe. He tells them that those who believe will be saved and those who don’t will be condemned. Then follows a critically important passage of the Bible.
"And these are the signs that will accompany those who believe: they will cast out demons in my name; they will speak in new tongues; and they will take up snakes in their hands; and if they drink any poison, it will not harm them; they will place their hands upon the sick and heal them."
Jesus is then allegedly taken up into heaven and sits at the right hand of God, while the disciples go forth into the world to proclaim the Gospel in miraculous fashion.
Without the above passages (which, again, were not written by Mark) the Pentecostals lose their justification for speaking in “tongues.” And the Appalachian snake handlers have no basis for their dangerous practices.

C) John 5:7-8 is the only passage in the entire Bible that explicitly delineates the doctrine of the Trinity (that there are three persons and God but that all three constitute a single God):
"There are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word and the Spirit and these three are one; and there are three that bear witness on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.”
There is strong evidence that this Trinity passage was entirely concocted and foisted upon Erasmus by outraged theologians who needed support for their prized theological doctrine.

With regard to mistakes... Even if we will delete all the passages that were supposed to be added later, all the christian doctrine would remain untouched and unchanged. The doctrine of the Trinity is taught and implied in many other biblical passages. And so is the teachings of Jesus with regard to miracles and speaking in tongues...


The Bible doesn't have any explicit or implicit contradictions as far as I know. And there are men more competent and smarter than you and me who tried to prove there are, and they failed. There are reasonable and reliable explications for any apparent contradiction found in the Bible. Morever, most of them aren't even apparent contradictions, there are differences and issues that cause misunderstandings.

But my question to you is...and really honestly I am asking you this... do you really want to understand the Bible ? Because if you already decided that the Bible and Christianity can't be true, then you won't see anything...
I believe Theism can be argumented as a logical and rational worldview that is reliable and the best of all the other worldviews. But to believe in Christianity, only God can reveal this to a man...

Many believers rely fervently on the King James version of the Bible, for instance. They sometimes even say “If the King James was good enough for St. Paul, it’s good enough for me.”
The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early 17th century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text.

In my experience, many people who cherry pick excerpts from the Bible as the proper way to determine what is moral are in utter denial that we don’t have accurate copies of the original writings. Most of them refuse to acknowledge that current popular versions of the Bible contain numerous discrepancies, even compared to the earliest manuscripts we do have. This is on top of the fact that their are hundreds of patent contradictions in the English version of the Bible. To most believers, none of this matters. Stay the course! In fact, in my experience most believers rarely read what the consider to be God’s own inspired word.

You are right. There are some discrepancies between the copies. But not even one of them touch important doctrines. Most of them are copists errors. Hoevewer, the acurracy of the copies of the New Testament exceed any other important documents in history.
Given the fact that there are at least 5,500 copies at least, the margin for accuracy is 96%. This is only 4% discrepancies, and again, there are no important doctrinal changes in it.

Then you have your literalists....those that believe everything at face value even though Jesus spoke in parables....in PARABLES! That means they were made up stories to share a moral or idea...and yet, people believe them at face value...why? That is utter ridiculousness.
The story of creation itself is a parable...if you take it as a literal translation then you are trying to read in the dark.
Yes, there are various interpretations... there are literalists with their style....yet there is objectivity in all the Bible... like you said, the parables of Jesus were made up stories, but carying important teachings in them.
With regard to creation, I myself don't think its literal sense, but neither I think is a "parable".

A far as evolution...why can’t the idea of God creating mankind and evolution go hand in hand?
He made made out of the clays of the earth right? Why can’t that mean that we once came from the primordial ooze until God evolved us?
Because it wasn’t written as such? God gave us wonderful, questioning minds for a reason....use your reason, question.

Well it could go hand in hand, but I think it's not. I think there are not any evidences for evolution, at all. It is a theory, like creationism. Between the two of them, I chose creationism not because I am a Christian, but because I think is a rational options, much more logical than evolution.
But your position, which I think is called theistic evolution, it could be a valid worldview, I have nothing against it. Evolution guided by God is a much more logical idea than evolution guided by chaos, or by nothing...

Yes, God and Jesus failed if you believe that - God being perfect sent his perfect son to save the “whole world” and he only managed to save a small percentage (what most churches now profess to be the number). If God wishes it so that the whole world be saved then it is.
I think you don't understant what the Bible is saying here. Only those who believe in Jesus can be saved, Bible clearly states that. Yes, God sent His perfect Son to save the whole world, but He won't save people, and He can't actually, that don't want to be saved.
 
No, again no. Assumptions are ok when they are not made to arrive at a conclusion. When somebody is doing this he's making logical fallacies.
For example, if scientists make assumptions that evolution is true just for "the sake of the experiments" and are so inocents, then why not assume that creationism is true? I tell you exactly why: because they don't like creationism, the don't like the idea of a personal creator.
Prove it. Not just for a few either. Prove it is universal for all of them. Otherwise you are assuming and are also guilty.

And I don't mean that they should assume creationism...this would be the same logical fallacy. I'm just saying this so you can see what I want to say.
So I gather.

Yes, exactly. They should assume agnosticism and start experimenting.
They cannot, just like you haven't.

I disagree. There is no assumption that "dinosaurs ever existed at all". One can't assume the existence of dinosaurs in order to prove their existence. That would be fallacious, begging the question, and absurd.
That is correct. However one must assume certain properties of dinosaurs to check whether they existed or not, and in order to do that one must have a hypothesis of what they were like.

If you see fox tracks in the snow, one presumes there was a fox, because it is the explanation which best fits. One typically does not assume that just this once some aliens came down and put fox tracks in the snow just to trick you.

The correct assumption is the possibility of the existence of dinosaurs.
What about the possibility that scientists hate creation?