I'm really failing to understand why people seem to think the idea toward improving JCF knowledge is going to take away from the community. Can't you have both? I don't see how they exclude each other.
Let's make this place better
- Thread starter Orion
- Start date
I'm really failing to understand why people seem to think the idea toward improving JCF knowledge is going to take away from the community. Can't you have both? I don't see how they exclude each other.
Ok I've never understood how the cognitive functions work and never will. I'm just retarded. Really, I am. I know I tested as INFJ, and I have read profiles of the INFJ and of other types and the INFJ describes me best. Now all of a sudden I am being told that this is not enough "proof" that I am an INFJ. Honestly I think that saying that testing as INFJ is not enough is a form of elitism, and if you require people to understand the cognitive functions then that too is elitism. I came for community, to interact with others of my type, but if INFJs are a bunch of elitists I'm not sure I want to be one anymore. Goodbye.
[MENTION=2675]NiennaLadyOfTears[/MENTION]
Hey hey, I don't think the post is intended to require anything of you. It's meant to encourage re-evaluation and deeper understanding into the roots of typology which stem from Jungian psychoanalysis. Nobody is going to be forced or excluded.
Its probably all the for the best, the most objective minds would have to admit that MBTI and typology in general are not really good science... its very wishy-washy and highly unprovable since every person is individual, every INFJ individual and varying. And any behavior can be chalked up and defined in a number of ways...
Perhaps you're right [MENTION=751]Peppermint[/MENTION], I can't speak for others but I may have misinterpreted how the OP was presented. To me what I'm saying is more of a "be careful" than a "No the forums shouldn't be like this" not sure if that makes sense.
I think [MENTION=1378]Orion[/MENTION]'s posts are quite well intentioned actually, they just may come from a place of only looking at the psychoanalytical portions of this forum.
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No one is depriving you of the right to call yourself an INFJ. While tests have never been, and never will be, an accurate method to determine one's type, no one is questioning you on your identity. You are making assumptions here.
That said, you really do require an objective standard to understand cognitive functions, and there's no elitism in that whatsoever. Every system is based on some objectively held standard, otherwise it would fall apart completely. Introducing it to the forum is no different than reading a book. I wonder if you consider technical manuals elitist too, because they instruct you to do things a certain way that follow objectively held standards...
Anyway, bye.
Also, inferior Te.
I agree. Not too long ago, I was hoping to start up kind of a "Cognitive Function Encyclopedia" here on the forums where people could look up information about the different types. Some of [MENTION=442]arbygil[/MENTION] 's ideas appeal to me. There are a lot of people here who really enjoy the complex analytical conversation that comes with JCF and the Enneagram. Actually, a lot of what I've learned about both has been from PMing members back and forth. If we're willing to teach each other, and allow people to see that we are willing to share what we know, we could have a better level of understanding overall.
When I joined here last year, the forums were indeed very different. Like many of you, this place helped me to get out of depression and meet some really great people. Sometimes, like often happens with me, there are people on the forums that I find intimidating or not really my idea of an ideal friend; but what I respect is that we all come from different places in life- we have different backgrounds, different values, and different patterns of thinking. Like in any group, especially in groups including a lot of very sensitive and idealistic people (regardless of specific types), people are going to hold dear and quite personally to their ideals. I feel like as people in general, we need to treat those ideas with respect. What is hard is that often times when we see things differently, when people disagree, we feel our innermost selves are being attacked. I know I've felt this way. But no matter how we react, there is always a way to react with understanding.
The forums have gone in a direction which has been hard for me because, personally, I'd prefer to talk about JCF, the arts, social sciences... academic things. It's kind of drifted away from that. It's like a conversation in that way. As much as I'd love to talk about my personal interests, if there is no one interested, it wouldn't really be too considerate to force the conversation into my focus.
It can be so frustrating, I know, to do this. When you come across such intriguing topics as JCF and the Enneagram, you can feel an urge to have everyone be as intensely interested as you are; for the sake of learning more, for the sake of having a common interest with someone, for the sake of plain fiery intellectual interest! When people get bored, or don't see the point anymore, it can be disappointing- a feeling of rejection, almost. A feeling that people are missing out...
Which brings me to my next point. When people find out about MBTI, there is rarely any background information telling them about Jung's intentions for the cognitive functions. Often, unfortunately, MBTI is presented as a 'complete' system. It is this fact that later disappoints people (me included), when they realize that this system has strayed from the original intentions of Jung. Now, this doesn't mean those of you who have (sorry for the quotes, they're so obnoxious looking!) 'found your type' through MBTI are wrong, stupid, or "not as good" as those who prefer JCF. It's just that maybe they've been misguided from Jung's original intention.
When [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION] posted about JCF, I felt really defensive and upset, because I had put lots of time into understanding MBTI; care about a lot of users who like the MBTI system, and had even told other people about it. When this "JCF" thing came in, I felt like someone just threw a big part of me out the window. I wanted to give up on any typology, because I was simply afraid it could later be disproven.
But isn't that what happens to many scholars and theorists. They invest so much time, effort, and discussion into their 'babies,' and when another scientist comes along and throws it out the window, it's quite a disappointment. But how will they react? Commonly, people react defensively or offensively, personally attacking the other's intelligence. But what if we didn't hold our theories and ideas so dear? Psychology doesn't unlock any 'truth of our existence,' nor does it do much more than aid us in attempting to understand ourselves and each other. Jung surely understood this. You see, people were not meant to unlock the mysteries, solve the puzzles of life on our own. No theory is really sound, as we could never predict it being disproved in the future. So I feel like our relationships should not be compromised by the discussion of theory.
I know with recent events people have been put under stress and strain. It's tiring, and a little scary.
As much as many of us don't need to be a part of this forum, there are many who have used it to find hope in an otherwise hope-deprived life, something that is not only OK, but an honor to us as members. We have been given the opportunity to affect peoples' lives for the better- it's already been happening! The words of genuine love and encouragement haven't only uplifted, but they have helped to heal and restore people.
MBTI was what got us to meet here in the first place, and for that reason, regardless of the merit of its accuracy or plausibility, it's why this place exists. It's why so many lives have been changed. It's why we have proven over and over again that human kindness, even over the internet, can do wonders for people in need of love. We can't expect anyone to improve, we can't change anyone's minds, but we can embody the best of humanity by encouraging, teaching, learning from, and loving each other. That's what I hope I've done so far, and what I plan to continue to do. No matter how I got here, there are people on this forum that mean a lot to me for just being themselves. And that's all I ask.
People, people, people. I proposed this in the OP because I care about this place. I see a way that we could improve this place for everyone. It's not about what I want, it's about what I feel will serve INFJs the best. I feel this place is special and can help INFJs, just like it helped me over 2 years ago.
It's a reaction to Indy leaving, mostly. I feel this place will lose quality unless there are people who are adamant about upholding it. That is all.
To say that I want to "mould" this place, or make it "elitist" is ridiculous because I'm only doing this because I give a shit. And guess what? Most people don't give a shit in this world. Too many.
I want to give, not take away. It's selfless and idealistic but I don't give a fuck because all the negativity here is just is just strengthening my resolve, so cheers.
Your opinion and I disagree but thanks for your input, I do understand what you are saying and take it into account.
It is so obvious from your post, that you haven't really read carefully what I have said, so I'm not going to pan to your insecurities, if you dont even give me the proper time of day.
Yes! Of course, why not?
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, small initiatives. It's positive and it will strengthen the forum.
I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope to prove you wrong.
I'm throwing out a proposal for improvement, not an overhaul and not a take over.
That would terrify me too, coming from you. But it doesn't hold because that's you feigning, this is me being real.
Thanks for the insult, but it would be more constructive if you explained why you felt that way and I would help you understand where I'm coming from.
This. Exactly.
It's a reaction to Indy leaving, mostly. I feel this place will lose quality unless there are people who are adamant about upholding it. That is all.
To say that I want to "mould" this place, or make it "elitist" is ridiculous because I'm only doing this because I give a shit. And guess what? Most people don't give a shit in this world. Too many.
I want to give, not take away. It's selfless and idealistic but I don't give a fuck because all the negativity here is just is just strengthening my resolve, so cheers.
Your opinion and I disagree but thanks for your input, I do understand what you are saying and take it into account.
It is so obvious from your post, that you haven't really read carefully what I have said, so I'm not going to pan to your insecurities, if you dont even give me the proper time of day.
Yes! Of course, why not?
This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about, small initiatives. It's positive and it will strengthen the forum.
I'm sorry you feel that way, I hope to prove you wrong.
I'm throwing out a proposal for improvement, not an overhaul and not a take over.
That would terrify me too, coming from you. But it doesn't hold because that's you feigning, this is me being real.
Thanks for the insult, but it would be more constructive if you explained why you felt that way and I would help you understand where I'm coming from.
This. Exactly.
You have to understand how frustrating it is, when you completely skim over what I am saying. I've told you DIRECTLY that, that is not my intention. I am person too, I'm not a bunch principles typed up on a computer screen. My words come from a motivation and desire. I would appreciate if you actually empathised with my position, rather then drama queen everything that you misinterpret.
I like this idea, I feel like it could foster different kinds of discussions.
The usual threads based on MBTI tend to be a certain subject within the context of one's MBTI type, or an examination of a JCF.
These are interesting and you learn a lot from these threads, but it would be cool to have an environment dedicated to promoting the kinds of posts you see [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION] put up, where one goes in-depth into a subject relating to MBTI, JCF, etc. and picks it apart from their point of view. Limit's topics tend to be quite educational and it would be awesome to foster an environment where there is more of that learning, theory-swapping, etc. I'm really ignorant on a lot of this, and I'm meaning to read up this summer while job-hunting. This is also the only place I've got that I can really talk about this sort of subject, so a place to bounce ideas and developing concepts/misconceptions would be pretty cool IMO.
The usual threads based on MBTI tend to be a certain subject within the context of one's MBTI type, or an examination of a JCF.
These are interesting and you learn a lot from these threads, but it would be cool to have an environment dedicated to promoting the kinds of posts you see [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION] put up, where one goes in-depth into a subject relating to MBTI, JCF, etc. and picks it apart from their point of view. Limit's topics tend to be quite educational and it would be awesome to foster an environment where there is more of that learning, theory-swapping, etc. I'm really ignorant on a lot of this, and I'm meaning to read up this summer while job-hunting. This is also the only place I've got that I can really talk about this sort of subject, so a place to bounce ideas and developing concepts/misconceptions would be pretty cool IMO.
Yes an opinion backed up with experiences based on the most popular MBTI and JCF forums around based on a few years of observation.
whoa, whoa. Uhm, UM.
...I understand you're heated up atm, but consider the 'elitist' claim not so much an intention, as much as reaction.
Seeing the changes you're proposing is going to make plenty of changes towards one direction (JCF), a direction that, I dissect, you're agreeing with, and are working with, consciously or not.
But in this case....think of it like this; Imagine a gadget forum that one day declare, "We are going to steer a new direction for the forum, focusing on Android/iPhones/BlackBerry/Java/Windows Mobile!"
Indirectly, the statements hidden are "use / learn these stuffs, or be left behind."
and what will they call the move?
Of course, I'm not saying anything about the value of your proposal. I learn bits and bits of here and there, and uses JCF in conjunction with MBTI. So...
I'm just trying to look from another side.
The thing is that you need people who are willing to invest a lot of time in learning the theories.
For instance, most people know there are 4 main cognitions now (partially because of PerN hopefully): Thinking, Feeling, Intuition, Sensing. People know that their are attitudes: Introversion and Extroversion.
How many of you actually know that there are 2 more distinctions?
How many of you actually know what the transcendent functions are?
How many of you actually know that what the collective unconscious is and how it relates to cognition?
How many of you have actually read about all the research Jung did?
Most don’t. And for good reasons, most people aren’t trying to get a bachelors degree in Jungian psychology. You need a group of people who are passionate about typology and analytical psychology in general. Those who are going to go through and read all the books, buy all the tapes, promote the content.
I mean, the book Psychological Types talks about Introversion and Extroversion for about 400 pages giving SEVERAL examples from all types of works.
The amount of research Jung did compared to Lenore, Myers, Bebee, etc is like comparing Jupiter to Earth.
I LOVE the staff here, but how can they make decisions for the forum to promote those items? Has anyone on staff even read Chapter X of Psychological Types? Imagine if you were working as a mechanic and then suddenly a group of people told you to do their 401ks. XD
At the same time, is it really necessary? This is a community, not a library. We’re hear to talk about INFJs and listen, share, learn, and experience those who believe they are INFJs. Yes, it would be better if we could differentiate between INFJs easier to get a better sample; however, it ultimately comes down to just being a community.
For instance, most people know there are 4 main cognitions now (partially because of PerN hopefully): Thinking, Feeling, Intuition, Sensing. People know that their are attitudes: Introversion and Extroversion.
How many of you actually know that there are 2 more distinctions?
How many of you actually know what the transcendent functions are?
How many of you actually know that what the collective unconscious is and how it relates to cognition?
How many of you have actually read about all the research Jung did?
Most don’t. And for good reasons, most people aren’t trying to get a bachelors degree in Jungian psychology. You need a group of people who are passionate about typology and analytical psychology in general. Those who are going to go through and read all the books, buy all the tapes, promote the content.
I mean, the book Psychological Types talks about Introversion and Extroversion for about 400 pages giving SEVERAL examples from all types of works.
The amount of research Jung did compared to Lenore, Myers, Bebee, etc is like comparing Jupiter to Earth.
I LOVE the staff here, but how can they make decisions for the forum to promote those items? Has anyone on staff even read Chapter X of Psychological Types? Imagine if you were working as a mechanic and then suddenly a group of people told you to do their 401ks. XD
At the same time, is it really necessary? This is a community, not a library. We’re hear to talk about INFJs and listen, share, learn, and experience those who believe they are INFJs. Yes, it would be better if we could differentiate between INFJs easier to get a better sample; however, it ultimately comes down to just being a community.
I agree with [MENTION=3465]Limit[/MENTION]. infsf is a community and if it becomes too heavily focused on the theories that community will be squelched. PerN however is where I go to school. 
Frankly, I read both forums at the same time. Right now, I'm spying on both. They serve complementary purposes. Ying Yang.
Frankly, I read both forums at the same time. Right now, I'm spying on both. They serve complementary purposes. Ying Yang.
We have those, and many of them have expressed their desire to contribute in this thread.
It doesn't have to be staff. This is a "community", remember? It can be from members to members.
Hell it's even better that way, because members won't be intimidated by the colored names and they'd be able to discuss and ask questions with ease from each other.
What staff can do is encourage such discussions, by creating sub-forums, shifting and moving threads around, as well as uphold the forum peace as they always have.
If anything discussions will be a lot more pleasant seeing how our staff deals with conflict.
Exactly. We have the advantage of being a community. We have knowledgeable INFJ members here, who will be able to relate, understand and contribute to the INFJ experience, AS WELL AS explain what it means to be INFJ to other types and promote the INFJ perspective.
This way, relating the information, theories etc will be much easier for the members as they are designed to be understood by INFJs and others.
This threat is nonsensical.
You're basically saying, INFJs are unable to deal with the knowledge because it would threaten the values they have come to share with others. If you've seen this place 3 years ago, you would have had a different opinion.
Just because a place is a community it doesn't mean it can't be educated. Doesn't mean the members can't learn new personality theories. It is in NO WAY threatening to the bonds of friendship and love that have formed between members.
If anything I'll guarantee you they'll strengthen those bonds as you are able to see and understand different perspectives and opinions, and you'll be able to help those you care about.
INFJf can be place where INFJs understand why they feel disconnected from the world sometimes, why they find opposition to things they say, do or believe in. They'd be able to learn how to work with different perspectives, attitudes, and thought processes in life. How to navigate their way in the world, and perhaps overcome issues in their lives.
It isn't only about catering to each others needs. That goes without saying if you have met and found friends in this place, but it is also about knowing exactly how to cater to those needs, how to help yourself and your friends on here to grow and develop as a person. It wouldn't make INFJs any less INFJ-y, or any other type any less of who they are.
The thought that if you bring more beneficial knowledge to the community, then it is going to be destroyed is ridiculous.
This is a place where you can grow, AS WELL AS escape and find peace when things get tough in RL.
We can have both. A community and a place to learn. It is possible.
If it's possible elsewhere, then it is definitely possible here. Nobody will be osterized. Nobody will be excluded. People WILL be excluded when they understand each other less.
It'll be from INFJs to INFJs and for INFJs and the forum members. Nothing will change, except perhaps a better INFJf experience for everyone.
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[MENTION=1579]Odyne[/MENTION], I'm not threatening anyone just stating an opinion. I'm really surprised that it was interpreted that way.
INFJs are intelligent people just as other types are and I am sorry if I implied otherwise. I was speaking instead to the strength of the sites. I do think that typology, similar to religion and politics, can have a very polarizing effect and I'm just reluctant to see that happen here for my own selfish reasons. I've made friends here and faced my own personal demons here so in that sense I am protective. I've explained how I satisfy both my needs for community and knowledge. Anyone who agrees is welcome to try my approach but I would not dare to say infjsf could not embark on a serious typology focus if it wished it. I guess my philosophy is why re-invent the wheel? Here are two sites that have separate focuses that they perform very well, why not take advantage of them? Also, if you notice the two sites have a very different feel that is in part because they have different foci. It is possible that a change in the focus of infjsf (or any other site for that manner) will result in a change in the dynamic (positive or negative or no change at all). However, it is not for me to decide, only share an opinion.
As for me thinking that infjs are unable to deal with knowledge, I ask the members here to look at my conduct on this forum. Does it support that idea? To be honest I find the response quite shocking.
