"Let's just be friends."
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T
The Jester
Urgh, I hate generalizations. Serious.
Not that I'm a nice guy.
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By the way, could you explain the lying part?
And every human being manipulates. Everyone.
There's a nice generalization!
But we all do.
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You're on an INFJ website, we seek truth. Truth behind actions people commit to and around us. If I see a guy who I know is a selfish, insecure waif pretending to be a friend to a girl just so he can slowly suck her in her and entrap her is lying. he isn't offering friendship for friendship, he is offering the illusion of friendship for sex ultimately. And that's pathetic. A dude is so much better off being up front with a girl over his intentions whatever they are, if you base your friendship and ultimate relationship off on a lie, then as far as im concerend its just going to mean its not going to be a very forthright relationship ever.
T
The Jester
What does seeking truth have to do with being an infj?
I like to get to know the girl better before I even think about asking her out.
Claiming all nice guys are manipulative assholes means you're biased.
But, don't you think a guy should get to know the girl better before he asks her out?
Do you think that relationships that start from being friends are wrong?
When did I say ALL nice guys?
And no I don't think a guy has to know everything about a girl before he takes her out, going out on dates doesn't mean dating, it means youre going out on dates and on those dates is when you ask important questions to discern if you are wasting your time or not.
I believe a guy should know as much as he can before approaching a girl and asking her out, but if he wants to be her man and wants to have sex with her and have a romantic interest in her he should make that known up front. It doesnt have to be a formal declaration of intent, but the guy should at LEAST say he is interested in her.
Not doing that when thats your interest and then trying to befriend her 1st and trick her into liking you IMO is pathetic. Any man who would put himself in that situation willingly needs to have his head checked.
I find that doing things that way, leads me to MORE female friends ultimatly anyway. Because I can go on 2 or 3 dates with a girl I sorta like, then figure out that it wouldnt work out, but I still like hanging out with her, so we do it as "friends" then I can be myself anf she can be herself and no one is confused or being mislead.
In the end a relationship takes 2 or more people to agree to it. Whether or not a person thinks he/she should be together with someone else, it still takes agreement between both or all parties.
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Exactly, a relationship is something mutual. Which is why there must be clarity of action for what each person is interested in. If one is interested in having a friend and the other sex, but uses friendship to get that, then its a lie and its wrong.
If I did not seek truth I can tell you personally I would have no point in existence.
This may not be a view shared by all infjs but it is mine and I am one.
The comic alone shows a perversion to block out truth; a person that never really respected the choices of another person. And it appeals to "good guys" because they think they deserve better; they think they have some how lost at a game they should have won. A person would be hard pressed to find a good girl like that, nor do they deserve it for being completely selfish.
I've been down this road before when I was young... love isn't about greed, earning, deserving; It's about love, trust and understanding.
It was when I understood this and I honestly loved someone else was when they started loving me. I have places deep within the hearts of women as well as men and they also have a place deep within mine.
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Naxx and Billy have the right idea indeed...
This being said by a female who has seen through guys who are doing what they guy in the comic was doing.
Ultimately, guys who do this seem to often need something from me that they should find for within themselves from themselves, not need me to provide them with sex, companionship etc. through giving me their care in hopes of my body or my heart in return as that should and would be left up to me to decide. Otherwise it's subtle power and controle and manipulation.
Guys like this don't seem to realize how sharp some women are...
There is a guy in my town who has been doing this to me for a couple of years now, and it just disappoints me in him as it tells me that he doesn't really value my friendship for how I have trusted to share with him turning to him when I have neded a friend. I have felt let down and slightly pressured because I know he wants more from me than I am willing to give. This tells me that I have caused him pain and that hurts me too. It also gives me the creep factor from him and that I am not safe to just be in his presence without him fantasizing about me romantically when I do not feel the same way in return. In short, it is a huge turn off and disappointing to me when I actually like him for who he is, as I can see right through the reason's why he behaves the way he does. It is a form of compasion from me towards him mixed in with the disappointment... I guess it's my empathy. He is after all, only human. It would be nice if more guys understood that in order to attract a woman truly and deeply, there needs to be no pressure or ulterior motives and a high level of inner completeness there in him to begin with.
I like the analogy of opening one's own business to the public: If your store is fully stocked, paper work in place, organized and clean, then it's time to open your doors to the public. If not, then you will not be ready to provide everything you want to give to others coming to buy what you are providing. You will lose money, disappoint others and yourself. It's also common to blame most of it on the lack of customers etc. instead of using it as a learning experience, thus feeling more like a failior and growing bitter. A victim who cannot see his own patterns for how he got there in the first place.
I hope this post didn't sound too bitchy, bitter or insensitive.
This being said by a female who has seen through guys who are doing what they guy in the comic was doing.
Ultimately, guys who do this seem to often need something from me that they should find for within themselves from themselves, not need me to provide them with sex, companionship etc. through giving me their care in hopes of my body or my heart in return as that should and would be left up to me to decide. Otherwise it's subtle power and controle and manipulation.
Guys like this don't seem to realize how sharp some women are...
There is a guy in my town who has been doing this to me for a couple of years now, and it just disappoints me in him as it tells me that he doesn't really value my friendship for how I have trusted to share with him turning to him when I have neded a friend. I have felt let down and slightly pressured because I know he wants more from me than I am willing to give. This tells me that I have caused him pain and that hurts me too. It also gives me the creep factor from him and that I am not safe to just be in his presence without him fantasizing about me romantically when I do not feel the same way in return. In short, it is a huge turn off and disappointing to me when I actually like him for who he is, as I can see right through the reason's why he behaves the way he does. It is a form of compasion from me towards him mixed in with the disappointment... I guess it's my empathy. He is after all, only human. It would be nice if more guys understood that in order to attract a woman truly and deeply, there needs to be no pressure or ulterior motives and a high level of inner completeness there in him to begin with.
I like the analogy of opening one's own business to the public: If your store is fully stocked, paper work in place, organized and clean, then it's time to open your doors to the public. If not, then you will not be ready to provide everything you want to give to others coming to buy what you are providing. You will lose money, disappoint others and yourself. It's also common to blame most of it on the lack of customers etc. instead of using it as a learning experience, thus feeling more like a failior and growing bitter. A victim who cannot see his own patterns for how he got there in the first place.
I hope this post didn't sound too bitchy, bitter or insensitive.
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What I am getting from Billy is that a person who claims they are accepting a situation as 'just friends' knowing that they actually want to convince the other person to accept something more is being dishonest and manipulative.
And I agree.
The difference here is being up front verses being manipulative. If you keep the fact that you feel and want more then friendship up front and stay honest about it, then he isn't talking about you.
And if you can't accept Just Friends and the other person is really not interested in more .. move on. For your own good as well as theirs actually. It's better to find someone who likes you that way than waste your heart on someone who doesn't see you that way.
IMO anyway. I consider myself a nice guy, but I also consider myself a good guy with a lot to offer and a strong heart. If I'm interested in someone I let them know. If she isn't interested, then I'm gone. It's about respect IMO. I respect her, and I respect myself.
And I agree.
The difference here is being up front verses being manipulative. If you keep the fact that you feel and want more then friendship up front and stay honest about it, then he isn't talking about you.
And if you can't accept Just Friends and the other person is really not interested in more .. move on. For your own good as well as theirs actually. It's better to find someone who likes you that way than waste your heart on someone who doesn't see you that way.IMO anyway. I consider myself a nice guy, but I also consider myself a good guy with a lot to offer and a strong heart. If I'm interested in someone I let them know. If she isn't interested, then I'm gone. It's about respect IMO. I respect her, and I respect myself.
I feel like I've only fallen into this trap once, and it was a long time ago, and it wasn't even anyone's fault (unless you want to blame timing).
Billy, I've never really thought about it the way you presented it (the guy basically feigning friendship in the hopes of eventually getting laid). I totally agree. Luckily I can't really think of any friends that go with this sort of behavior (since that's creepy). I'm the one that has had trouble asking girls out, as well as being really picky, but I find myself getting better at showing my intentions.
Although, some people don't develop a real attraction until they get to know someone. I used to be this way (and it still happens sometimes), but generally I'll know if I like a girl in a romantic fashion when we first meet. I just get a good feeling, and to develop that with someone I've been friends with for awhile just seems weird to me.
I'm going to a different "market" soon, so to speak, so it'll be interesting to see who I meet.
e: This happened to me recently. I finally asked out a girl I've had a crush on for months after learning of some previously withheld information. She was allegedly ecstatic, and I hung out with her twice and discovered that she's pretty awesome and we have a lot in common. Nothing happened because I was just getting to know her and wanted to wait for the right moment to do something. We decided on watching a movie ~3 days after meeting the second time. She cancelled the day of, but suggested the next day. She cancelled then, too, and I basically didn't hear from her for three weeks (I called her three or four times over the course of this).
She finally called me back, and told me that she had started seeing someone and it "came out of nowhere" (ok). She seemed sorry about it and told me that if I wanted to hang out as friends I should call her, and I just told her "I might do that." It's been almost two weeks since then, and I'd be okay with hanging out with her as friends, but that just seemed like a really rotten thing to do to me. I'm not embarrassed or anything; just mad. I don't know if I WANT to call her, but I think I'll regret it if I don't (I'm probably moving in a few months).
Billy, I've never really thought about it the way you presented it (the guy basically feigning friendship in the hopes of eventually getting laid). I totally agree. Luckily I can't really think of any friends that go with this sort of behavior (since that's creepy). I'm the one that has had trouble asking girls out, as well as being really picky, but I find myself getting better at showing my intentions.
Although, some people don't develop a real attraction until they get to know someone. I used to be this way (and it still happens sometimes), but generally I'll know if I like a girl in a romantic fashion when we first meet. I just get a good feeling, and to develop that with someone I've been friends with for awhile just seems weird to me.
I'm going to a different "market" soon, so to speak, so it'll be interesting to see who I meet.
e: This happened to me recently. I finally asked out a girl I've had a crush on for months after learning of some previously withheld information. She was allegedly ecstatic, and I hung out with her twice and discovered that she's pretty awesome and we have a lot in common. Nothing happened because I was just getting to know her and wanted to wait for the right moment to do something. We decided on watching a movie ~3 days after meeting the second time. She cancelled the day of, but suggested the next day. She cancelled then, too, and I basically didn't hear from her for three weeks (I called her three or four times over the course of this).
She finally called me back, and told me that she had started seeing someone and it "came out of nowhere" (ok). She seemed sorry about it and told me that if I wanted to hang out as friends I should call her, and I just told her "I might do that." It's been almost two weeks since then, and I'd be okay with hanging out with her as friends, but that just seemed like a really rotten thing to do to me. I'm not embarrassed or anything; just mad. I don't know if I WANT to call her, but I think I'll regret it if I don't (I'm probably moving in a few months).
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1. I start out friends with all of the people I have been interested in romantically. When someone asks me out on a date without knowing anything about me, I find it superficial and pretty much retarded. I have been friends with the people I am interested in romantically for at least one year before really knowing them enough to be interested.
2. Does anyone really chose to 'just be friends'? When I am interested in someone I've known for a while I take the initiative and I do ask them out. If they say they just want to be friends, 3/4 times I will just stop talking to them. If I am interested in someone romantically, it's going to be hard to switch that off. So I just end the friendship.
2. Does anyone really chose to 'just be friends'? When I am interested in someone I've known for a while I take the initiative and I do ask them out. If they say they just want to be friends, 3/4 times I will just stop talking to them. If I am interested in someone romantically, it's going to be hard to switch that off. So I just end the friendship.
This is my shtick as well usually. If I can't really break off contact with an individual then I put emotional distance between us at the least.
Oh, and if someone says Just Friends and changes their mind later, then it's their responsibility to directly state that. Just Friends is permanent unless you state otherwise just as directly. It isn't playing 'hard to get', so don't get mad when the new 'friend' starts looking elsewhere for romance.
I would just like to point out you can be a nice guy and not do this.
I have had issues where I have grown to like someone but I didn't pursue it because I was good friends with them. I've never done the lets be friends and then try to start something I already knew I felt.
Also Ria made a good point about everyone not just guys. A lot of people I know tend to go through countless relationships trying to fix themselves. I know my mom did this to some degree. This is part of the reason I've been single for so long. I'm trying to fix myself and I know dragging someone else into my problems won't fix me. This was also the underlying break up between me and my ex. I didn't feel I could be in a relationship at the time no matter how nice it was.
I have had issues where I have grown to like someone but I didn't pursue it because I was good friends with them. I've never done the lets be friends and then try to start something I already knew I felt.
Also Ria made a good point about everyone not just guys. A lot of people I know tend to go through countless relationships trying to fix themselves. I know my mom did this to some degree. This is part of the reason I've been single for so long. I'm trying to fix myself and I know dragging someone else into my problems won't fix me. This was also the underlying break up between me and my ex. I didn't feel I could be in a relationship at the time no matter how nice it was.
Totally agree. In fact, I don't personally think that the guy in that comic is a nice guy.
When I posted this, I was aware that there would be many people who would feel a bit uncomfortable with what I wrote.
I am sorry if I offended anyone slightly or sounded like I was making generalizations, that was not my intent.
I was just using someone as an example who I have encountered this situation with in real life. It has felt for me, somewhat manipulative because if he is not satisfied with friendship (as this discussion has already taken place between us), and he has continued to drop hints, inuendo's, offers of comforting me, wanting to spend time with me like taking me out for dinners and movies etc. then I have seen it fair enough to take my stand point on the issue.
I am also aware completely that this doesn't ring true for all guys and or girls, whatever the situation might be. So, as far as I was meaning, it was simply for the point of the cartoon's depiction of being a parallel example of my situation irl.
Hope that cleared things up a little!
Also, I did mention that I held empathy for the guy too, as I understand how he must be feeling in himself, therefore I do not dislike him, I still do like him as a person, just meaning that any future posibilities of ever having my feelings maybe shift towards him for what he's hoping for, are lessened with his approach with me in the present.
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